OC Spray is no can of seasoning...

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DontBurnMyFlag

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Hey everyone,

While I would chose a firearm for personal protection over OC spray or Mace anyday, I cannot stress enough how well OC works. Yesterday at the police academy we had chemical agents training. We had 10% OC spray training and we had to get sprayed with it. Our partner stood about 6 feet away, and fired a 1/4 second burst at my face. Our eyes were closed, we had to tilt our head back, let it drip in our eyes and then walk to the shower. OH MY GOD!!! It was incapacitating in every sense of the word. All that happened to me was a short burst and my eyes were closed. Never under-estimate this stuff. Everyone was effected differently and dozens of us could not operate. I was in pain and could not see, but I could move. There is no way I could put up a fight though. Of course, people under the influence of drugs and alcohol are not going to be nearly as effected as a normal person. While OC spray has its weak points, it is still an incredible tool for self defense. I am convinced. However, I will still pick a .25 Raven over OC spray if I had the choice haha.

We all know the advantages of firearms and the benefits of less-lethal weapons, so I just thought Id add in some 1st hand experience.
 
I've been OCd and I believe that I'd rather have a rabid pit bull chew on the twins than to go through that again.

OC was invented by the red-headed Devil himself.
Evil stuff....

Biker
 
I have never personally seen an OC failure. I have read about them, but I've never seen it happan and I've used it or been present when it was used many times over the years.

In my last field use, it worked great on a tweaker who was apparently feeling little pain from other control methods I tried.

Jeff
 
I am an OC Instructor{ as well as a Handgun/Shotgun Instructor} and have found that it is the most effective method for breaking up a parking lot brawl.
I have used it on numerous occaisons and have never had it fail.{that is not to say it is 100% all the time, just in my personal experience}
 
The only thing I can say is that my brain wanted to jump out the back of my skull to get away from the pain. They used pepper foam on us, evil stuff that clings and burns.

But, I'd take another dose of that stuff rather than another ride on the Taser. Like an idiot, I asked for the full 5 seconds. Seemed more like 5 minutes. Wait'll ya get a dose of that, DBMF! :evil:
 
I've never been OC'ed. Closest I've come is the tear gas room in Basic Training. If they had made me stay until I had recited my name, rank, and serial number as ordered...I'd be there yet. 1974:D

There were people in my platoon who went through the drill, bounced out happy, and wanted to go do it again. I was useless for quite some time.

However, I have no reaction at all to poison ivy or poison oak. I can wallow in the stuff.

The point is that there is a very wide range in human response to chemical agents. Before you even add drugs into the mix. (BTW, drugs and alcohol is redundant. Alcohol is a drug.)

There's a state prison down the road from the hospital where I work. We kept getting an asthmatic inmate in the ED whenever pepper spray was used anywhere on his cellblock. Not on him, just anywhere in his area. Status asthmaticus. Life threatening. The doctors finally got an entry made into his medical records and all the corrections officer were notified that the use of OC spray on this inmate WAS lethal force. Once of the CO's asked me what this meant. I replied,"Simple. If you aren't justified in shooting him right between the eyes by prison policy and procedure, then you aren't justified in using OC spray on him. The only difference is the bullet would be much more merciful."

Most folks are going to be controlled. A small percentage will be able to fight through it. A small percentage will be so adversely affected that it will probably scare the crap out of you.
 
I have seen a few individuals who were completely unaffected by OC. I have witnessed inmates streaming gas down thier faces, still swinging at each other. I have even seen an inmate take 4 Taser shots without going down.
Less than lethal munitions are not failsafe, and should be backed up whenever possible with lethal force options. Also, using the use of force continuum, recognize when to skip the LTL, and go directly to lethal force.
 
I'd rather take the full 5seconds on the Taser again.

We got sprayed w/o our eyes closed. Have to open them and then blink till it takes effect (funny to watch, sucked to be watched). We then have to find a red gun tossed down, and track a moving target and order them down. Once we've done that it's walk to a station and throw knees, walk to a station and throw elbows, walk to a station and find a baton a throw baton strikes. THEN go rinse down.

It sucked.

-Jenrick
 
Caught the neighbor man laying out on the lawn on night with the sprinkler washing his face every few seconds after he got hit with OC, He was a bouncer holding a unruly patron who spit at a cop, who then tried to hose patron and missed....let us just say he was unamused.

I saw a very small but very very aggressive guy at a football tailgating party get hosed three or four full facial shots with two different cans of OC and he just got madder. I had watery eyes and i was several car lengths away and he never even blinked. Even after all the cops showed up and pig piled him, he was cursing and swearing and yelling and his face did not even look red. All the cops had effects from the contact with the OC but he had no visible effect. A very scary little man.
 
OC is not a chemical agent, as CN and CS{ tear gas} are.
Technically, OC is a food product, and has no reactivity color.
 
here in michigan we are limited to 2% concentration. from experienence I can say that you do build a tolerance fairly quickly to that stuff. still makes you water and all your mucus come out but you are more than capable of beating your "friends" senseless after 3 times or so.
 
Oakland CA used to have a summer celebration near Lake Merritt. Sometimes there were celebrators who got a bit out of hand, and OPD was called in to break it up.

I vividly recall television footage of 3-5 OPD officers using OC stream to spray a small crowd walking down the street; there were about 20 of them, and most likely they had been drinking, but were not unsteady walking.

Hit in their faces, the members of the crowd just kept walking - no observable reaction on the TV tape.
 
A friend being a smartass pepperd me once. Don't know what kind or what its rating was but it was just one of those cheap ones you find at check out counters. It was far from pleasent but if I had a knife and was highly motivated on killing him I don't see it having stopped me. It certianly didn't from me breaking his nose.

Keep in mind, this was the cheap stuff. I would NOT want to take a shot of the good stuff people like foxlabs produce. I haven't been hit but I know people who have and it will put you down. I wil lsecond that a gun is better but OC can be very useful in cases where you can't carry a firearm, are to young, and when you need to put someone down but don't want to kill them or you don't want it to get to that point. A bum harrasing you or a family member that you can't win a fight with and is looking for one, things like this come to mind. I have one Uncle in particuler that is a drunk but because of various factors even after a few drinks he would tear me apart and whoop me if we got into a fight, it's come close a few times. I wouldn't want to shoot him but you know I really don't want my ass kicked either so such things are prime examples of when OC comes in handy. I'm not advocating spraying anyone who looks at you funny, simply saying it can be an alternative when a situation is escalating to defuse it before it gets to the point of needing to shoot or to use agianst someone you would never shoot but aren't capable of defending yourself from with your fists.

OC hurts, but rely on the good stuff like foxlabs and other real high quality makers, not the cheap stuff on the check out lane.
 
Pepper Foam 10% ripped me a new one. We were supposed to run up and strike a pad, then run to a wall and follow a moving target with a red gun, I couldn't see the target, they yelled for me to pry open my eyes, but they were tearing up so bad that it didn't help, just made the burn worse, I then yelled for backup into the fake radio and said "F" this take me to the water station.

I was what you call "rendered helpless" after about 4 or 5 seconds. But if someone OC'd me, I'd use those 4 or 5 seconds.:cool:
 
What on earth is the purpose of OCing police recruits? So that they'll know it hurts?

How do they let them know it hurts to get shot?
 
I think the purpose..

is so that when they get contaminated when spraying someone else the pain is not so much a shock to them and they have a better chance of still being functional.

My view of pepper spray is that it is an OODA loop disrupter, not a magic dragon slaying wand. It serves to break up their plan so you can start acting instead of reacting. Spray should always be followed up with your 'real' defensive measure.. elbow to the temple, pushing their knee sideways with your foot, front kick to the solar plexus...your choice. The primary thing to remember is to not just spray and stand there waiting for them to fall over.

Spray, move, run, hit, kick, whatever... it's only a minor step in the whole defensive process.

as always...one man's opinion....

migoi
 
While I would chose a firearm for personal protection over OC spray or Mace anyday, I cannot stress enough how well OC works. Yesterday at the police academy we had chemical agents training. We had 10% OC spray training and we had to get sprayed with it. Our partner stood about 6 feet away, and fired a 1/4 second burst at my face. Our eyes were closed, we had to tilt our head back, let it drip in our eyes and then walk to the shower. OH MY GOD!!! It was incapacitating in every sense of the word. All that happened to me was a short burst and my eyes were closed. Never under-estimate this stuff. Everyone was effected differently and dozens of us could not operate. I was in pain and could not see, but I could move. There is no way I could put up a fight though. Of course, people under the influence of drugs and alcohol are not going to be nearly as effected as a normal person. While OC spray has its weak points, it is still an incredible tool for self defense. I am convinced. However, I will still pick a .25 Raven over OC spray if I had the choice haha.

We all know the advantages of firearms and the benefits of less-lethal weapons, so I just thought Id add in some 1st hand experience.
Click to expand...


Fun, eh?
Just bear in mind what Byron said. There is a wide range of response. From yours, to mine. I was OC'd in the academy, as well. My eyes were open, and I got a good long dose of the stuff. As I stood there with it dripping from my face, I asked the instructor if he'd hit me with the inert trainer. He sprayed me again. It cleared my sinuses, and was a little spicy where it got into my mouth, but it really didn't bother me beyond mild irritation. I drew my redgun, ordered my "suspect" to the ground, cuffed and released him, and still nothing.
My instructor then asked if I was willing to try pepper foam. I told him I would, and he fetched it from his truck. He gave me a good shot in the eyes. I wiped it off, and said, "This stuff doesn't!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
OMG! Holy Hell, that stuff is pure evil. My eyes swelled shut, my nose started running huge snot strings all over, I was crying and spitting and choking.....It sucked! Bear in mind, this took 30 seconds or so, and was around 4-5 minutes after my initial dousing with OC. An angry man can do a lot of damage in that amount of time.
There was one other guy who fought through the spray, but most of the class was hit pretty bad by the stuff.
Just wanted to point out that relying on OC alone is a good way to get into trouble. But, it can be very useful. Best to have a wide range of options available, as there is no magic pill to make folks do what they should when we tell them to.
 
P&R: Part of it is so that when you get on the stand and the defense attorney says you maliciously used OC against his client with no understanding of the horrible damage you inflicted on him you can say BS. Another reason is that you can plan ahead and make the decsion on what to do if someone threatens or sprays you with OC. What level of the force do you respond with? Lastly it makes for a really great hi-light video at graduation.

-Jenrick
 
they told us the purpose of being exposed to OC was to understand how to fight through it or at the very least, deal with it, when we are hit on the street. Notice how I didnt say "IF" we are hit with it on the street. In a chaotic situation where numerous cops are trying to OC and take down someone, there will be some "collateral damage." We now know how incapacitating it is and some techniques on how to function after being hit. I do know that when I use my OC this summer, I will yell "SPRAY" before so to keep my partners from being hit.

Why they ran us through the CS gas though...I think the instructors needed a laugh! :D
 
Another reason we were OC'd and video taped during the process was to show in court that we had first hand knowledge of the effects pepper spray had on us. That justifies shooting someone who OC's a police officer (a felony in AR, by the way) since we would likely lose control of our firearm in that situation. Our training is if OC'd, shoot whoever did it. This actually happened in an officer-involved shooting not too long ago in Springdale and it was ruled a good shoot.

Crofrog and hoji: I guess part of my aversion to being Tased again is that one of the leads hooked in my shirt and didn't penetrate the skin. The resulting arc left a nice little crispy spot on my skin that took about a month to heal.
 
A knifemaker on another forum tells how he opened a new shop in Corpus Christi, Texas, right in Crackhead Row. He gets reports like "Well we came to your shop but a guy wrapped in carpet was all over us so we left." He contacted the police who gave him handcuffs and told him he could request they move and then pepper foam and cuff them if they didn't. When they wanted to fight he'd hose 'em with pepper foam and cuff 'em to a pole to wait for the cops. He has seen zero failures of this stuff to work, and says if you get them in a ear also they go down HARD. I just bought some 10% pepper gel myself and I am NOT going to spray myself. Not on purpose anyway. :p
 
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