Officer not engaging the shooter

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How folks react in a real emergency can be a crapshoot (even trained individuals...). You won't know until the balloon goes up, period. The big strong capable guy freezes up - or runs away... Some little guy that looks like a librarian turns tiger and does amazing things that they hardly remember afterwards... That's a whole subject you never want to learn about personally... Anyone that survives an armed encounter whether they're trained and on the job or just an armed citizen who's only experience is firearms training at a range is very fortunate in my opinion - since the good guys don't always win...
 
A friend of ours is a LEO in our area and had a few of us help with active shooter training at a local college, where we role played during different scenarios. When the training was over we overheard the officer who ran the training talking to the other officers, explaining to them that no one obviously wants to respond to an active shooter situation, but it's their job to do so and doing nothing while students and faculty are being shot is not an option. As others have said no one knows how they'll respond in this situation, but at least the officers in this department understood the risks they faced and the consequences of not doing their job. Now that the department the officers in the video work for knows that they won't do their job they should be fired or reassigned to a different job where they won't be in the position of having to respond to threats, if that type of job exists in their department.

There's about a dozen of us with military or law enforcement backgrounds who volunteer as armed security at our church and we train regularly. My kids and grandkids are there with me as are the families of everyone who works security, so we have the additional incentive of protecting our families. I pray we never have to deal with this situation, but if we do that we have the courage to respond and end the threat quickly.
 
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I saw another video of this from the perspective of another officer shooting to the left. The officers who didn't shoot seem to be looking right when they yet to the ground floor. Is it possible they just couldn't engage because of cross fire?
 
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An armed encounter - is a life changing event, period. I nearly quit police work after my one incident all those years ago (and I did what was needed in that moment...). I've read that infantry troops often have very poor performance their first time under fire - but the second time most will do exactly what's needed. I know that I was much more ready and able after that first incident - and so it goes.

Armed encounters should be avoided at all costs - if you can... That's my take on it - all these years later.
 
No question about it. But if a person's job is to provide church/school security then they don't have the option to avoid armed encounters if there's an active shooter on campus while they're working. They are getting paid to deal with them and agreed they would do so when they took the job. Or, maybe it's more accurate to say that they did have the option but gave it up by taking the job.

I mean, I get it. It is a very, very hard job. I'm sure there are a lot of people, probably including me, who couldn't handle a job like that. But it's not a job that people are forced to accept. If they choose to accept it then they need to hold up their end of the deal.
 
No one really knows how they will respond in s situation like that until you've actually ran towards gunfire or taken rounds. Peope genuinely believe they will and have every intention of running to gunfire but you just never know until it happens. You could tell in the video her brain was saying go but her feet were saying no.

If Houston PD is anything like most law enforcement any active shooter training they received was very little and very poor. Honestly there really isn't much to train aside from moving to the shooting as fast as possible and arriving with the skillet to make rapid, accurate shots. Training should be stressful and provide a reality check.

The other thing that struck me about this video are the distances. That's a huge lobby and not many people cop or otherwise are training to engage with a pistol at those distances. This should change.
 
I don't see what previous posters see that would make me critical of any of the officers. They didn't run away and I'm not sure what they are trained to do. I guess if you know exactly what they are trained to do, maybe you can judge them, but I certainly don't know their training, but at first look it appears they are ready and responding, but to me I'm also not running accross an open space like that with a pistol hearing what I think may be a rifle, making me a dead duck that isn't going to help anyone - which serves no value. i mean, I didn't see the shooter break out into the lobby and see them run away or abandon their post.
 
Here's the entire critical incident presentation released recently by the Houston PD. It provides a lot more context.

youtu.be

WATCH: Barrage of gunfire as officers confront Houston megachurch shooter

Body camera footage released by Houston police on Monday showed off-duty police officers with weapons drawn as they confronted a woman who opened fire at cel...
youtu.be youtu.be

There are LOTS of lessons to be learned from this presentation.

Just a few of the biggest ones:

1) Locking the doors to the sanctuary likely prevented deaths of many innocents. The first thing the murderer tried to do was to enter the sanctuary where a meeting was about to begin. Locked doors prevented this.

2) Accuracy is KING. HPD officer Moreno recognized the murderer, and had a clear line of fire from a relatively close distance. He drew his RDS-equipped handgun and fired several shots in her direction. But missed every one.

3) Sometimes, defenders do need to take pistol shots at distance. The bald DABC officer was the only effective responder. He chose to carry a duty-sized, high-capacity firearm and at least one spare magazine. His pistol was equipped with iron sights. He advanced when he first heard shooting, sliced a large-diameter pie, and used shots from a significant distance to engage the murderer. He missed many of these shots. But he eventually put at least one shot into her that ended the threat.

4) The actions of the bystanders and police officers who chose to move between the engaging DABC officer and the murderer are simply unbelievable. Those who loitered downrange likewise. Anyone who doesn't have the tools or skills to help solve the problem must get out of the way!

5) The claimed presence of the bomb changed the defenders' response.

I do not recommend that non-sworn defenders run toward a threat. However, note that just about any defender could find himself or herself in officer Moreno's tactical situation. And could draw positive and negative lessons from his responses.

We may all benefit from considering all these lessons as we decide how to equip ourselves, and how to train with our handguns.
 
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film495 said:
I don't see what previous posters see that would make me critical of any of the officers. They didn't run away and I'm not sure what they are trained to do. I guess if you know exactly what they are trained to do, maybe you can judge them, but I certainly don't know their training, but at first look it appears they are ready and responding, but to me I'm also not running accross an open space like that with a pistol hearing what I think may be a rifle, making me a dead duck that isn't going to help anyone - which serves no value. i mean, I didn't see the shooter break out into the lobby and see them run away or abandon their post.
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Obviously, my comments are limited to the video footage I've seen.

My criticism is there were many shots fired from the evil perpetrator while the cops stayed behind cover, much of the time without trying to get a vantage point of the shooter (hard to say this for fact as we are seeing the body camera footage and not the vantage from the police officer's eyes themselves). Hearing those shots being fired, in a church full of innocents, including children; if I may arm chair quarterback those that signed up for police work should be of the mindset and fortitude to not let those shots continue to happen given the venue. If they cannot do that, they probably shouldn't sign up for security detail or a line of work with in the police force that has them potentially needing to engage a target at a disadvantage.

The footage I saw it looked like there were potentially two female cops together, gaining a vantage point using corner tactics, low position, cutting the pie, etc one is not putting themselves in grave bodily harm when one is only exposing a shoulder and a 2"x4" area of the head peaking around the corner, those are small targets to hit and once the perp targets your position, other police should move in.

I say all these things in great respect for what the police do, but not everyone is cut out for that work; and I will also say in some jurisdictions the police do not get paid anywhere close enough to what they should. I also recognize, I don't know how I would react in that situation, but I would expect people on the outside viewing the situation to critique me if I failed to engage the perp; that is the only course of action when in a venue full of innocent lives at stake.

Most of these evil perps are cowards, the minute they hit resistance, even just simply covering fire in their direction of police moving into position they either flee or do the tax payers a solid and off themselves.
 
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The issue law enforcement faces as a profession is that the job description is so incredibly expansive and diverse that you can have an officer who excels at 95 percent of the job which is the day to day routine calls yet be completely inadequate for the remaining 5 percent which may happen only one or twice in a career, if ever.

Do we wash out excellent cops who help people every day and replace them with cops who will excel in the worse possible crisis yet are very poor at managing the routine? The cop who excels at both is a unicorn and it isn't realistic to expect them all to be that.
 
A few additional thoughts... in my era the "active shooter" was something you rarely ever heard of, much less encountered. We did however make a point of training our officers in "officer survival" techniques to give them a good chance of surviving a potential ambush threat - or situations where they were simply out-gunned... or where tactics were much much more important than the weapons you were carrying at the time....

In the intervening years since I retired out in 1995, like many, I've watched video of bad situations and thought that the officers on the scene had never been taught techniques and tactics that we had learned - the hard way years before... If I were once again involved in training I'd be trying to figure out ways to incorporate what we learned about officer survival into active shooter response to improve and enhance their skills and confidence when "running to the sound of the guns". Once again though - glad I'm long out of that world....
 
lemaymiami said:
A few additional thoughts... in my era the "active shooter" was something you rarely ever heard of, much less encountered. We did however make a point of training our officers in "officer survival" techniques to give them a good chance of surviving a potential ambush threat - or situations where they were simply out-gunned... or where tactics were much much more important than the weapons you were carrying at the time....

In the intervening years since I retired out in 1995, like many, I've watched video of bad situations and thought that the officers on the scene had never been taught techniques and tactics that we had learned - the hard way years before... If I were once again involved in training I'd be trying to figure out ways to incorporate what we learned about officer survival into active shooter response to improve and enhance their skills and confidence when "running to the sound of the guns". Once again though - glad I'm long out of that world....
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I left in 2006 due to LOD stuff.

But by that time we had done many drills about active shooters.

By that time it was your DUTY to enter when you arrived and stop the shooter = PERIOD.

This made me sick to my stomach.
 
shafter said:
The issue law enforcement faces as a profession is that the job description is so incredibly expansive and diverse that you can have an officer who excels at 95 percent of the job which is the day to day routine calls yet be completely inadequate for the remaining 5 percent which may happen only one or twice in a career, if ever.

Do we wash out excellent cops who help people every day and replace them with cops who will excel in the worse possible crisis yet are very poor at managing the routine? The cop who excels at both is a unicorn and it isn't realistic to expect them all to be that.
Click to expand...

I understand your point, but one of the, if not the most important things our LEO's do is protect us from those who wish to harm us. Mass shootings have unfortunately been occurring long enough and often enough that they are no longer a surprise. Churches like the one I attend understand that the odds of it happening at our particular church are incredibly small, but it does occur and we therefore have armed security to protect against what happened at Lakewood. It takes a special type of person to put themselves in harms way to protect people they don't know, but that's what these officers volunteered for. I don't fault a LEO who decides they don't want to assume that responsibility and resigns or takes some type of desk job, but I do have a problem with a LEO who volunteers for the job and then fails to do the exact thing the volunteered and are paid to do. This may seem harsh, but when LEO's refuse to confront these attackers people die. I can't imagine the grief of the family members of those who died knowing that those deaths could have been avoided had LEO's done their job.
 
shafter said:
The issue law enforcement faces as a profession is that the job description is so incredibly expansive and diverse that you can have an officer who excels at 95 percent of the job which is the day to day routine calls yet be completely inadequate for the remaining 5 percent which may happen only one or twice in a career, if ever.

Do we wash out excellent cops who help people every day and replace them with cops who will excel in the worse possible crisis yet are very poor at managing the routine? The cop who excels at both is a unicorn and it isn't realistic to expect them all to be that.
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"Other than that one thing, how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"


Larry
 
During the 2004 to 2009 time frame, when Chief Harold Hurtt was in charge, Houston PD started an active shooter training program that was quite good. We were trained make immediate contact, to stop the shooting. We were taught to team-up, in groups of two to four, if possible, but to do it alone, immediately, if necessary. We drilled with Glock “sim guns,” live-action, for stress inoculation. Role players would toss inert “pipe bombs” Into our path. At first, we used a real public school, that was vacant, and scheduled for demolition. Then, the training shifted to a private school building, which was made available. I reckon that the vacant school, where I trained, was better, due to its enormous size, and multiple buildings, offering room for more and larger scenarios.

After all of the Houston PD patrol officers were trained to handle active shooter incidents, the active shooter training component was shifted to the academy, where cadets were supposed to be trained in handling active shooters, before being sworn-in. I can only guess whether the cadets have continued to be as well-trained as the patrol officers were, when Chief Hurtt was in charge. Regardless, even the best training requires refreshing. Priorities tend to shift, over time. I have been retired, now, more than a few years, so will not try to guess how the young ‘uns are training.
 
The recruiting efforts in recent years (going back to the mid 2000's, if not further?) almost seem as though they were created to attract people who have no idea what's involved, let alone any business, in becoming cops. Then, there's how some politicians make it seem that anybody could become a cop.

Hire just anybody who wants to be a cop, and that's what you get.

Remember the days when agencies might be able to examine a thousand or more applicants for one, or a handful, of openings? And that was when being a cop was popular? When 20% of those who survived the initial hiring process might be culled during an academy, and then another 20% during FTO, and then some who slipped through all that could still be identified as not being suitable and cut during Probation?

Good luck throwing money at the problem thinking to try and fill empty positions with any breathing warm body, especially if it looks good on a recruiting poster and checks many desirable boxes. The near future of who is hired to wear a badge might make this look like the good old days.:uhoh:
 
lemaymiami said:
How folks react in a real emergency can be a crapshoot (even trained individuals...). You won't know until the balloon goes up, period. The big strong capable guy freezes up - or runs away... Some little guy that looks like a librarian turns tiger and does amazing things that they hardly remember afterwards... That's a whole subject you never want to learn about personally... Anyone that survives an armed encounter whether they're trained and on the job or just an armed citizen who's only experience is firearms training at a range is very fortunate in my opinion - since the good guys don't always win...
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Amen. There is no way to know, until a person has been tested, for real. Training that rises to the level of “stress inoculation” can help, tremendously, but, even that is not a guarantee of performance.

Regarding realistic inoculation training, my wife does moulage, to simulate injuries, on role-players, for disaster drills. At one school, some actual EMS personnel, from the local fire department, who already had actual work experience, were unable to emotionally handle walking into a school room, with multiple kids lying about on the floor, some motionless and quiet, and some moaning as if in pain, with simulated three-dimensional injuries. Even though they knew that it was a training drill, it was just a bit too real. (Moulage is more realistic than “stage make-up,” because it has to look real, at close range.)
 
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