A Recent Incident Involving Shooting in Self Defense

[Kleanbore]

"Aggressive action by a determined adversary can be stopped reliably and immediately using a handgun only by a shot that disrupts the brain or upper spinal cord.

"Even the most disruptive heart wound cannot be relied upon to prevent aggression before 10 to 15 seconds has elapsed.

"Given this limitation, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels in the torso causing circulatory collapse is the fastest and only other reliable mechanism available to the handgun user."

Dr. Martin L. Fackler, Colonel, U.S. Army

That's the story, I think.

In the case of the big man walking with the stick, even though the officer was walking backwards, the target was large, close, and moving slowly, and the ofifcer was shooting rather slowly. It is rather apparent that it simply took 12 hits to do the job.

In the case of the man with the knife, he too was approaching slowly. and he had come very close before the officer finally fired. There is no apparent reason for concluding that the officer's shootingwas not sufficiently precise.

 

[shafter]

History is full of examples of human beings being shot an incredible amount of times and living, or at least living long enough to be dangerous for a while and this doesn't even factor in the drugs that many of today's criminals are using.

As frail as humans can be they can also be incredibly hard to kill.

 

[armoredman]

I remember reading, (?), something like 20 years ago about a guy high on PCP that was shot 33 or 36 times with 9mm, three shotgun slugs and was finally stopped by running him over with a patrol car...I seem to remember that in one of Massad Ayoobs books...it was a long time ago.

 

[lemaymiami]

Two thoughts - from personal experience... My training crew ran the Tueller drill on all of our officers (assailant armed with knife - officer 25 feet away, officer's gun holstered until the dance began and the "assailant" charged with deadly intent...). Most aware of the actual time needed to draw and fire before an assailant can reach you in that relatively short distance... know that it's always a close run thing - that exercise... The ones in our training that did the best in that situation (even though it was only training and the "knife" was a rolled up newspaper..) were the ones that ran backwards to maintain as much distance between themselves and the attacker.... The ones that utterly failed the drill were those that allowed a potentially armed individual to talk their way into a much closer than 25 foot distance - before charging - all while our trainee still had their sidearm holstered while they tried to talk to the attacker instead of using sound tactics and maintaining a relatively safe distance from a "man with knife (or machete, or hatchet, or hammer - take your pick...)". By the way - the officers that did the best in this survival situation - not only ran backwards while facing their opponent -but the moved like a good defensive end in a pro football game...

My second point, learned the hard way on the street, is that I can't remember how many times someone engaged in law breaking absolutely ignored the sidearm I was pointing at them - ready to engage... You'd think that having a handgun pointed at you would have some effect - but not when facing a hardcore or desperate individual - not at all.... On the other hand most that I enountered, shotgun in hand, never ignored the shotgun when they were dead-band downrange and there was no way I'd be missing a shot if necessary... Street life will teach anyone - if they pay attention to the lessons it teaches...

 

[Coyote3855]

Other sources certainly support your second point experience regarding handguns. A reminder to armed civilians like myself to leave the gun in the holster until you must shoot.

 

[drobs]

This one was making it's rounds a while back. I just saw the original video again on Tiktok with the guy filming "yelling shoot him shoot him."

Montgomery County Deputy shoots man 12 times.

Police: Sheriff’s Deputy Shoots, Kills Laytonsville Man Who Was 'Driving Erratically'

Music provided by Manhattan Production Music.Montgomery Community Media (MCM) is the only independent, nonprofit organization providing access to public medi...

www.youtube.com

 

[drobs]

This youtube channel has lots of body cam police shooting videos:

https://www.youtube.com/@PoliceActivity/videos

 

[old lady new shooter]

I remember reading, (?), something like 20 years ago about a guy high on PCP that was shot 33 or 36 times with 9mm, three shotgun slugs and was finally stopped by running him over with a patrol car...I seem to remember that in one of Massad Ayoobs books...it was a long time ago.

In Cali we always heard about guys on PCP who just kept coming no matter what.

 

[Smokin Gator]

The idea of using competition to introduce stress is brought up often. Maybe there is something wrong with my mentality but I don't feel any stress during the likes of IDPA competition. There are no consequences to be stressed about. I try to do as well as I can. But at the end of the event I just feel like I enjoyed myself. If I did well that makes me happy. If not then I try to reflect on what I need to practice to improve. I don't get the least bit stressed about it. Everybody around me is chatting, smiling and commenting on the course.

But if I am faced with live person(s) trying to kill me or do serious harm it is a whole new experience. Maybe some of these training courses do a better job of introducing stress to some level but I am 77 and I would have difficulty with them and they aren't in my budget anyway. But even there, knowing there are no real consequences, what is to stress about. I enjoy the likes of IDPA competition and if I could attend a fairly intense course I feel I would enjoy myself there.

Like I said maybe my mentality is wired wrong.

What may stress some people may not stress others. Not everyone but many people feel stress competing in front of other people. Shooting or otherwise. A person that owns a business with 200 employees often does not understand how a low level employee of his can feel any stress. It's just different for everyone what causes each person to feel stressed. I have lots of buddies who I know would have fun shooting a match vs plinking but they are nervous to get out in front of others.

 

[Speedo66]

My agency trained us with lights flicking rapidly on and off, loud siren noises, flashing red lights in the dark, and running in place. I still did well even when qualifying with a 2” S&W 36.

Fortunately, I was never required to find out how I would actually do with someone exchanging bullets with me.

Training’s great, but I guess you’ll never know if it works until you actually use it.

 

[scaatylobo]

Two thoughts - from personal experience... My training crew ran the Tueller drill on all of our officers (assailant armed with knife - officer 25 feet away, officer's gun holstered until the dance began and the "assailant" charged with deadly intent...). Most aware of the actual time needed to draw and fire before an assailant can reach you in that relatively short distance... know that it's always a close run thing - that exercise... The ones in our training that did the best in that situation (even though it was only training and the "knife" was a rolled up newspaper..) were the ones that ran backwards to maintain as much distance between themselves and the attacker.... The ones that utterly failed the drill were those that allowed a potentially armed individual to talk their way into a much closer than 25 foot distance - before charging - all while our trainee still had their sidearm holstered while they tried to talk to the attacker instead of using sound tactics and maintaining a relatively safe distance from a "man with knife (or machete, or hatchet, or hammer - take your pick...)". By the way - the officers that did the best in this survival situation - not only ran backwards while facing their opponent -but the moved like a good defensive end in a pro football game...

My second point, learned the hard way on the street, is that I can't remember how many times someone engaged in law breaking absolutely ignored the sidearm I was pointing at them - ready to engage... You'd think that having a handgun pointed at you would have some effect - but not when facing a hardcore or desperate individual - not at all.... On the other hand most that I enountered, shotgun in hand, never ignored the shotgun when they were dead-band downrange and there was no way I'd be missing a shot if necessary... Street life will teach anyone - if they pay attention to the lessons it teaches...

I was one that did this drill in classes On a daily basis.
All failed badly when faced with a charging knife wielding attacker.
It is a real eye opener to be attacked and need to draw and shoot.
AND note that the gun will not likely stop that attacker IF you do put rounds where required.
Unless your "that guy" who can do a brain stem shot stop.
Nothing beats hands on force on force training.
Sadly most will not get that chance,and too many do not see the need.

 

[lemaymiami]

None of us are able to maintain the heightened defensive posture needed when sudden violence (At times unprovoked...) comes our way - you just can't stay scared constantly. That's the real purpose of training in my view - to build into an individual certain responses that can come into play almost automatically as you fumble away from an attacker. The good news for every armed citizen or police officer is that these kind of situations rarely occur... Most, even cops, will rarely ever face an all-out assault by a determined adversary, thank heavens...

Just two days ago two local Miami-Dade officers went to an address where a squatter was in place. That individual fired on them without warning using a shotgun - wounding both officers... Fortunately their vests saved them and they were able to return fire, killing their assailant. I'm certain that they never anticipated that incident at the start of their shift...

 

[shafter]

Two thoughts - from personal experience... My training crew ran the Tueller drill on all of our officers (assailant armed with knife - officer 25 feet away, officer's gun holstered until the dance began and the "assailant" charged with deadly intent...). Most aware of the actual time needed to draw and fire before an assailant can reach you in that relatively short distance... know that it's always a close run thing - that exercise... The ones in our training that did the best in that situation (even though it was only training and the "knife" was a rolled up newspaper..) were the ones that ran backwards to maintain as much distance between themselves and the attacker.... The ones that utterly failed the drill were those that allowed a potentially armed individual to talk their way into a much closer than 25 foot distance - before charging - all while our trainee still had their sidearm holstered while they tried to talk to the attacker instead of using sound tactics and maintaining a relatively safe distance from a "man with knife (or machete, or hatchet, or hammer - take your pick...)". By the way - the officers that did the best in this survival situation - not only ran backwards while facing their opponent -but the moved like a good defensive end in a pro football game...

These can be eye opening drills but problems can arise when an otherwise good drill is set up in a way that doesn't mirror reality. Running backwards can buy you time and space in a training environment because drills are specifically set up to be safe. No one is staging a Tueller drill with obstacles such as curbs, potholes, trash, sticks, furniture, or other debris for the trainee to trip and fall over because this increases the risk of injury and we can't have officers getting injured in training or training gets shut down. When training rewards bad tactics it leads to bad outcomes on the street.

One of the fundamentals of fighting whether with a gun or with your hands is that straight backwards movement is bad for multiple reasons such as trip hazards, slow movement, and inability to strike or shoot effectively. We need to understand range and distance, at what range can my opponent hurt me and at what range am I safe and then utilize angles and lateral movement to maintain that reactionary gap while also being able to fight effectively.

Officers should be taught that distance is their friend. This should be obvious with edged or impact weapons but it's also true with firearms. I would much rather deal with a suspect armed with a pistol at 50 yards than 5 yards because he's going to need a lot of luck to hit me where I don't need any luck at all to hit him. Officers should be better taught on how to use obstacles to their advantage. Railings, vehicles, furniture, doorways can all interrupt a suspect's straight line access to you and force them to change direction and slow them down. Lastly officers need to understand lateral movement and backplate shooting on the move. It's not difficult, but it's rarely trained.

 

[JTHunter]

I remember reading, (?), something like 20 years ago about a guy high on PCP that was shot 33 or 36 times with 9mm, three shotgun slugs and was finally stopped by running him over with a patrol car...I seem to remember that in one of Massad Ayoobs books...it was a long time ago.

I remember that incident as well. The information that came out afterwards was that the PCP, being a "pain killer", meant the perp couldn't feel the pain and shock to his system until it reached a catastrophic level. I don't think the perp survived - IIRC.

 

[Monster Zero]

Well that's interesting commentary considering the context expressed in the .45 vs. 9mm title at the bottom.

Did you take any instruction one way or the other from his lecture, re .45 vs. 9mm? I know a lot has changed since 1987, particularly the quality of 9mm ammo available, but asking out of curiosity anyway.

 

[Jeff White]

Well that's interesting commentary considering the context expressed in the .45 vs. 9mm title at the bottom.

Did you take any instruction one way or the other from his lecture, re .45 vs. 9mm? I know a lot has changed since 1987, particularly the quality of 9mm ammo available, but asking out of curiosity anyway.

There are no magic bullets. Any caliber .38 special or larger is adequate for self defense.

Science has yet to be able to explain why some people have fallen “dead right there” when hit with a .25 or .22 in an area that one wouldn’t think was fatal and other people can absorb multiple hits by high powered rifles and still function (read some MOH citations for an idea of how much damage the body can take and still function).

Rather than discussing caliber we should be discussing training for a failure to stop.

 

[Hugger-4641]

This one brings to mind another incident from some time back An officer came epon a pedestrian who was menacing some people with a big stick. When told to stop, the man started walking toward the officer, ignoring repeated commands to stop. The officer was forced to shoot, firing slowly while backing up as the man continued to advance. It took twelve hits to down him.

I don't think that either of these similar scenarios is representative of anying I am likely to encounter. Unlike the sworn officers, I need not engage awould try to evade, although if either assailant broke into a run that story would change.

I do wonder, however, about the cpacity of my carry pied--eight plus one. I think I would prefer ten plus one.

Unfortunately, this is a problem I may likely face if the day comes. Meth is a real problem in my area. If I'm ever forced into SD at my home, it is very likely to be from someone jacked up on Meth or similar. You are now not dealing with a normal person. In this instance, even 12 rds may not be enough. Eventually yes, they may be fataly wounded with the first shot and eventually succomb. But to stop the immediate threat, I'd definitely want more than 6 rds.

 

[shafter]

There are no magic bullets. Any caliber .38 special or larger is adequate for self defense.

Science has yet to be able to explain why some people have fallen “dead right there” when hit with a .25 or .22 in an area that one wouldn’t think was fatal and other people can absorb multiple hits by high powered rifles and still function (read some MOH citations for an idea of how much damage the body can take and still function).

Rather than discussing caliber we should be discussing training for a failure to stop.

It's vitality. Some people have an extraordinary drive to live while others not so much. I'm sure there's more to it than that but as you said, MOH citations are a great example of what the human body can endure and keep fighting.

 

[benEzra]

The idea of using competition to introduce stress is brought up often. Maybe there is something wrong with my mentality but I don't feel any stress during the likes of IDPA competition. There are no consequences to be stressed about.

I think it may be how different people are wired, as you state. I found my first USPSA match to be stressful, just as my first martial arts tournament was to me…I think it was partly aversion to potential failure in front of others.

But I think a bigger benefit of competition (especially ones with increasingly complex stages) is inoculating you to shooting while under cognitive load, and that is huge. My first competition, I failed to seat a mag properly during a reload, not because of stress, but because my brain was not used to reloading when I wasn’t focusing 100% of my attention on the reload. Likewise, I found it a lot harder in my first few competitions to focus on the fundamentals of shooting while also working through the stage requirements and such, while being under time pressure from being in the clock.

I think when some people talk about the stress of competition, they may be talking about the cognitive load challenge more than any sort of adrenaline thing.

At least for me, competition has been a bit of a crucible for improving the ability to run the gun while observing, thinking, and moving (and a mirror to show where I suck and need improvement).

 

[Bill_in_TR]

I have been spending more time in this sub forum recently and to me it has been a valuable learning experience. There has been a lot of useful information and opinion here and many other threads. It has changed my way of thinking about some things and reinforced my thinking in other areas. I can't say I always agree or that I can always apply some suggestions. But I always pick up on something that makes me think. Thank everybody for their contributions.

I think it may be how different people are wired, as you state. I found my first USPSA match to be stressful, just as my first martial arts tournament was to me…I think it was partly aversion to potential failure in front of others.

But I think a bigger benefit of competition (especially ones with increasingly complex stages) is inoculating you to shooting while under cognitive load, and that is huge. My first competition, I failed to seat a mag properly during a reload, not because of stress, but because my brain was not used to reloading when I wasn’t focusing 100% of my attention on the reload. Likewise, I found it a lot harder in my first few competitions to focus on the fundamentals of shooting while also working through the stage requirements and such, while being under time pressure from being in the clock.

I think when some people talk about the stress of competition, they may be talking about the cognitive load challenge more than any sort of adrenaline thing.

At least for me, competition has been a bit of a crucible for improving the ability to run the gun while observing, thinking, and moving (and a mirror to show where I suck and need improvement).

I like the notion of dealing with cognitive load under competition rather than that of stress. I know I have made my share of mistakes at a match but I laugh about it afterwards. I am happy to say none of my mistakes were safety related to get me DQ'd.

There are probably some folks who feel the difference between dealing with a "cognitive load" and stress is just semantic. I personally feel the difference is important. But it definitely puts a different perspective on how I view competitive events.

 

[JohnKSa]

I remember reading, (?), something like 20 years ago about a guy high on PCP that was shot 33 or 36 times with 9mm, three shotgun slugs and was finally stopped by running him over with a patrol car...I seem to remember that in one of Massad Ayoobs books...it was a long time ago.

This may be an incident that happened in Baton Rouge, LA and was described/dissected in an Ayoob Files article.

Two cops (one male, one female) responded to a possible burglary and found a closed door upstairs. When they opened the door there was a man inside. His behavior was initially erratic but when he calmed down the male officer (Steve Chaney) relaxed. At that point the man (John James Mullery) made a grab for Chaney's holstered gun. While Chaney and Mulllery wrestled for the gun, the female rookie officer (Linda Lawrence) drew and shot Mullery in the wrist. Mullery continued to wrestle with Chaney for his gun but Chaney won and shot the man twice in the chest. Mullery turned, grabbed Lawrence's pistol and killed her with a single shot. That started a long sequence of events. In total, Mullery was shot ten times with the service revolvers. Chaney ended up with both guns at one point--both S&W Model 64 revolvers loaded with 125gr .38sp +P.

Mullery was hit once in the head and another time in the ribcage. Chaney thought that maybe shooting a bone would give good results so he pressed the revolver's muzzle against one of the attacker's ribs and fired. He reported that when he fired the shot Mullery said: "Oooh, you got me a good one that time." and then lifted Chaney and threw him across the room. The head shot penetrated the skull but at an angle that allowed it to miss the brain.

Chaney pistol whipped Mullery over the head with one of the empty revolvers until his arm was too tired to continue--but it had no effect. Chaney then faced into a corner hunched over for protection to reload one of the revolvers while Mullery beat him about the shoulders and back with a tire iron--causing permanent injuries that led to his early retirement. Mullery also stabbed Chaney once during that reload.

Mullery was finally disabled by a shot to the pelvis which prevented him from walking. He eventually bled to death. He was later found to be under the influence of PCP and cocaine. It is thought he came to the apartment to murder his girlfriend and was waiting for her in the closet.

Ayoob describes nine of the shots (all of Chaney's aimed shots) as solid hits.

 

[fastbolt]

In Cali we always heard about guys on PCP who just kept coming no matter what.

In my earliest drug influence class, which was taught by a chief paramedic for a major city, he told us of an example of someone being under the influence of PCP, which seemingly made him not feel pain. The man was arrested for suspected of being under the influence of PCP, and the arresting officers ended up breaking both his legs with their batons in the process of trying to control him and protect themselves when he resisted and fought them. During the ambulance transport, the paramedic said the suspect broke out of the restraints on the gurney, got up, and literally kicked the back doors open, then jumped out of the moving ambulance and was last seen running down the street ... on 2 broken legs.

Having dealt with at least my fair share of people suspected of (or admitted to) being under the influence of PCP, it can take a lot of horsepower to try and control someone under the influence if they resist.

I remember one suspect who had 3 of us on top of him (can't remember the position of the 4th cop), while he was proned out on the floor and we were struggling trying to get control of his hands/arms. He was unarmed. The two biggest cops (both 200-230lbs) and I were literally laying on/over him at one point, trying to weigh him down, at which time he did a 1-hand/arm pushup, lifting all of us off the floor, smiling at us and mumbling. He might've weighed 125lbs and was stick thin.

 

[Jeff White]

I had similar experiences with subjects on PCP. Had an assist ambulance call with about 140 pound 16 year old on PCP. Took five of us to take him down and handcuff him to the gurney. I rode in the ambulance sitting on his legs after he broke the Velcro secured restraints the had on his legs.