Oh c'mon, Im not that paranoid

[ball3006]

Sex offenders and people on probation....

should be fitted with tracking devices. On the other hand, I will not buy a GM car with onstar because they can listen in on you without you knowing it and track your every move. I guess the other manufacturers will follow suit so I better buy a new truck before that happens, reached that age where I most likely won't need another vehicle unless wrecked or stolen.

With this illegal alien problem, I can see a national ID card, with a chip, coming down in the near future.

The problems with tracking devices, is any violations are never enforced, unless the trackers can get a government grant to do so........chris3

 

[Husker1911]

Probation?

Tracking devices on people on probation? Surely you must mean parole?

 

[Manedwolf]

First thing I did with a new cellphone was disable the tracking.

Not just for the 'evil gummint', either. Because there's talk of marketing groups using it to track you to track your shopping habits and dump more ad crap on you, or even send you text messages when you're near their store.

No thanks!

And NH voted to defy the federal government and not comply with REAL ID. Love this state.

 

[hilljack22]

OK, what about this scenario....

Too many illegals in the country and no one knows who is legal or not.
Bring out the REAL ID card for Americans and legals.
Of course, since everyone will carry it, we'll put a locator chip into the card.
OH NO, they're being counterfitted, we need to create an implant that cannot be duplicated.

Hmmm......

I'm re-roofing my house in Tin Foil!!

 

[Michigander]

If you're just now catching on...

... Let me fill you in on a little secret: It is too late to stop the future.

For you older folks, you may want to pray it comes to fruition after you are gone.

For us middle-agers, we should probably pray that we have the fortitude and means to stand up against this tyranny for any length of time and that somehow we convey some semblance of the idea of freedom we once had to the younger ones who may have to endure much more than us.

For our children, and our children's children, we should pray that they do not suffer much and that they find the desire for freedom and the means to overturn the tide of tyranny we allowed to infest our once great nation.

 

[CentralTexas]

wow, I think many of you are ready, www.lp.org

CT

 

[#shooter]

hummm.......

I am going to play devils advocate here, so please keep the flames to a minimum.

Technology is similar to the gun ownership. Many people here at THR believe that guns in and of themselves are not evil, but a tool to defend yourself with, to hunt with, or just enjoy shooting. Some believe the presence of guns is bad and we should do away with them.

I find it ironic that the logic for RKBA does not apply to technology and to suggest that we are being “conditioned” to be tracked is illogical. This is precisely the argument the anti-gun movement makes about guns. You all heard it before. Gun ownership “conditions” us to be violent; therefore we should ban guns to lower the violence rate.

If it is a poor argument for gun control, why is it a good argument for surveillance and monitoring control? Do we agree with the logic the Brady bunch argues; that guns may help people sometimes but the massive distribution (net effect) of handguns is bad. What is the pro-gun or CCW argument “it is so we can defend ourselves”, which is to say “so we can be safe”. Does that make self defense gun owners “sheeple”?

We can’t have it both ways. You can’t argue that we need guns and CCW to protect ourselves to be safe, then turn around and criticize the “sheeple” that they are being conditioned to accept tracking technology to be safe. The anti-gun groups make this exact same argument of the NRA, that “gun nuts” are “sheeple” being scared into buying a gun to keep them safe.

The $500 question is…..
Does the safety of the individual outweigh the interest of “the people?”

Does carrying a gun or having Onstar, for the safety of the individual, outweigh the potential abuse of these items to the population at large (ie. the safety of the group)?

 

[Husker1911]

Tell me again, how is technology similar to gun ownership? You built one heck of a straw man there.

 

[Strings]

>Tell me again, how is technology similar to gun ownership?<

Both can be used, and misused...

The STATED reason for the GPS system in cell phones is the easier location of people using such for 911 calls. Could it be used for more malignant purposes? Sure can... tracking citizens ala 1984 leaps to mind...

The STATED reason for the government to have guns is to be able to use violence against criminals and foreign enemies. Can they be misused? Yep... Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc...

Both CAN be used by the citizenry, too. Your CCW, and the surveilance cameras you install to see who's at the door...

Not as much a straw man as you thought...

 

[DontBurnMyFlag]

On a side note. I cant say I agree with sex offender registration. Its damaging on many levels. While I wouldnt want my kids living near a sex offender, I dont see the purpose. When does it end? What about drug dealer registration, so they cant live near schools or churches. What about gun crime registration, or vehicle theft registration. Its a cycle that wont end. Just as we say about banning the FN 5.7 and .50 cal rifles. People will shrug it off because they dont use those weapons. Then its just a slippery slope from there. "Well, we will ban everything bigger than .30 cal too" Etc etc.

There are better ways to fight crime. Especially in the sex offender area. Counseling doesnt always work, but these criminals only serve small sentences anyway. They need to be in there longer, with more counseling and therapy and if they are not reformed, they cannot leave. Ok ok, im rambling about my Criminal justice class.

Anyway. Its like that old poem

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Its a snowball effect. The less resistance the govt and companies have, the easier it is for them to enact or register whatever they want.

 

[Husker1911]

In my part of the country, the big push is for banning convicted sex offenders from living close to schools. The distance varies with the locality. In my local area, Council Bluffs IA enacted such an ordinance. Now the sex offenders are moving across the river to Omaha, NE. Does this prevent perverts from committing crime? I have serious doubts. This is not a solution, but rather a bandaid "feel good" piece of bad legislation.

 

[Husker1911]

Straw Man

Hunter Rose, choose nearly any subject you wish, one can compare it to "gun ownership". Heck, choose firetrucks and using high pressure hoses to break up riots. I respectfully disagree with the technology/gun ownership comparison, and IMHO, the straw man is alive and well.

 

[#shooter]

I beg to differ, then again I beg for alot of things

I disagree that I am using the straw man argument because I am not misrepresenting or refuting anything. I am using arguments that are used by both sides in the debate to justify their positions which can be found easily online, thus I am not refuting either side poorly (though they may be poor arguments to begin with). I may have injected some sarcasm by accident, consider it a genetic flaw.

Your fire truck example is perfect. Because fire trucks are used to break up riots, does that mean we shouldn’t have fire trucks? Fire trucks can be used for evil therefore we need to ban them. Sound familiar. This is a weak argument because fire trucks are just objects. Isn’t that what we say all the time to defend our having guns?

Your right, this argument can be used with anything and guns, but that proves my point. It is this line of reasoning that is weak. Using the argument that we should ban (or in this case shun) something or others because it has the potential for misuse is lame. It’s a feeble argument to shun something because of its potential for misuse. This includes: fire trucks, guns, rope, cars, and yes GPS traceable phones. I’m just saying if it is lame for antis to use this line of reasoning, it is lame for us to use it too. I am not saying anyone should or shouldn’t have a GPS phone or Onstar or a gun. I am saying that it is unfair to criticize someone who does have a tracking device as a pawn inspired by fear. That is what antis say about us and I think it is unfair and untrue. We should not do it to others, because we then validate the antis arguments about gun ownership. Let’s try to keep object as objects and their use and potential abuse separate from the object itself or else we will go down a slippery slope and loose our rights to bear arms because of the “potential for misuse.”

 

[kduncan]

sex offenders and gun control

I am maybe on the fringe here,

But I strongly believe that we shouldn't be letting people out of jail that we cannot trust with our children or a gun. Because everyone knows that these type of people will get access to both children and guns.

Lock em up or let em go free.

 

[Strings]

>Does this prevent perverts from committing crime? I have serious doubts.<

Ok... you have to understand something about child molesters: they're sociopathic*, and have a disconnect to understanding right and wrong...

We had a training session with a sexual abuse nurse. She related a story about interviewing a guy, was in jail for molesting his 14 year old babysitter. The nurse was trying to understand what went on in his head. His defence to the crime was "she felt like a woman": this fully knowing the girl's age. Their brains are wired in a messed-up fashion. That said...

A law prohibiting a convicted molester from being within X range of a school or playground MAY help remove temptation from an SO who is trying to abide by society's rules. It may also keep a predator from staking out "prime hunting grounds", or at least give police something they could nail such a predator with before they strike again. Other than those two items, I don't see any use in such a law...


*I always confuse the terms "sociopathic" and "psychopathic". IIRC, "sociopathic" doesn't really understand how to work within society's rles, whereas someone "psychopathic" simply doesn't care about society's rules.

 

[DontBurnMyFlag]

living away from a school will not curb a sex offenders temptation. they can just watch TV and see children in commercials or on TV shows. They could look out their window and see one walking by. The temptation is always there. Removing them from their stalking grounds makes a bit of sense, but they could always go to a mall, ice rink, etc etc.

 

[Jeremae]

It all comes down to "choice" for me.

Not matter what the inanimate object, (Guns, GPS phones, Verisign chips, drugs, money, credit cards, firetrucks) as long as each indivdual has the choice to use or not use it, then any bad comes from the intent of the user.

When things are made Manditory or Forbidden, bad is built into the system.

As to the original question, Yes, in my opinion, the individuals that make up the bulk of our society are being conditioned to accept the government (and corporations) having way to much information about their private lives.

 

[Run&Shoot]

This is just the ti[p of the nanny state iceberg. consider:

* RFID chips in practically every item we purchase, and now the chips are about the size of a period dot. Virtually undetectable except with a scanner. How much of what you are wearing has an RFID chip in its label pr seam?

* Face recognition and identification. At my place of employment, we have RFID badges aswell as turnstiles with facial recognition cameras to double check. These are being implemented at most major sporting venues and even metropolitan areas to try to catch known fuguitives, etc.

* Oregon has been trying to pass a bill to require GPS tracking of all resident vehicles for "tax purposes". Rather than pay by the gallon at the pump they want to send you a bill for the miles driven in Oregon. They promise not to keep records of your actual travels, just the mileage. Right!

* Most semi trucks are already tracked by GPS. It is a small step to add to personal vehicles. The auto makers didn;t ask if we wanted them to track our acceleration, braking, speed, etc. in the little black boxes but they do. Why won;t they add GPS as soon as they can dream up a justification. I believe some car rental firms are doing this to track whether you take the car out of state or out of the country.

Face it, unless you diligently work at keeping yourself and your activities private it will be tracked and recorded by commercial and government bodies down to the tiniest detail. How about automatic urine tests installed on all urinals?! yikes that would be something....

Look at the sorry state of things in Great Britain. They have something over 100,000 cameras installed in alleys, street corners, etc. I remember reading that anywhere you go you could be recorded on up to 8-10 cameras at the same time!

I think we have to assume that unless we take an active measure to ensure some activity or property is not being tracked then it probably is by someone.