Old Colt Revolvers

[Jerry11826]

My Dad - has just about given up shooting - he is 92. DOB 04/04/1916. He has given me his two Colt Officers Model revolvers, a .22LR and a .38 Spec. These guns were bought new in the late 1930's. He was an active Bullseye shooter most of his life. They are very nearly perfect.

Until I last month, these guns had not been fired in about 30 - 40 years. Dad had progressed from the .22 to a Colt Woodsman and later to a S&W 41. The .38 was replaced by a Colt National Match, a S&W 52, a Colt Gold Cup and finally a custom fitted 1911A1 made by a local gunsmith.

Asked Dad if it was safe to shoot the old revolvers - his reply was "Hell yes, these were quality guns and were made to be shot". So last weekend we went to the range and fired both pistols quite a bit. The loads for the .38 were light - a 148 Gr. DEWC on 3.0 Grs. BE.

Both pistols were very accurate - 10 ring groups on the standard NRA pistol target at 25 yards off sand bags. The single action trigger break was light and crisp on both pistols.

Now to the point of this post, finally! The double action trigger pull was awful - very heavy with extreme "stacking" at the end of the pull. Asked Dad if the internal parts had ever been cleaned and lubed and he replied No! - the side plates had never been removed.

I would like to disassemble these revolvers, clean and lube the internal parts and see if the double action trigger pull would improve. Don't panic I don't plan to file or otherwise alter anything! Just clean in solvent - lube and reassemble.

The problem is I don't know what is inside a Colt revolver. I can and have disassembled and cleaned my S&W revolvers many times with out problems - but I am afraid of the Colts - have heard too many horror stories about Colt revolver actions. I don't want to wind up with a pile of parts I can't reassemble.

Can anybody suggest a reference / instruction book or offer any suggestions on how to disassemble, clean, lube and reassemble these old revolvers?

Thanks,

Jerry

PS - This is my first post - hope there is someone out there that has done what I want to do!

 

[Majic]

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/st... COLT DOUBLE-ACTION REVOLVERS - A SHOP MANUAL

 

[RON in PA]

Colt revolvers of that design usually do not have good DA trigger pulls, especially compared to a S&W. They were known for their accuracy and great SA triggers. Prior to the take-over of bullseye shooting by semi-autos, the Colt vrs S&W controversy was a hot topic. There is a book by Jerry Kuhnhausen, Colt Double Action Revolvers, Vol 1 that tells you all you need to know about your revolvers. My advice is to shoot them SA and enjoy their accuracy.

 

[Master Blaster]

add three drops of good gun oil to the various openings in the frame.
I would not take a colt apart without a good understanding of the parts, same for a S&W revolver.
When you take it apart you might be surprised to find how clean it is inside.

 

[krs]

There are more small parts in your Colts than you've found in your S&W revolvers. They're not necessarily harder to work on but they are more complex and I wouldn't want to have ever gone into one without my copies of the Jerry Kuhnhausen manuals.

To change the characteristics of the triggers takes experience that can't be gotten just from a book. As good as they are, and IMO if ever there are gunbooks worth ten times their cost the Kuhnhausen manuals are those; even so they shouldn't be thought of as more than a good beginning, a grounding.

You'd be well advised to get those beauties to a good revolver guy if you mean to change the DA - too much could go wrong otherwise.

 

[Shade00]

DO NOT TAKE THOSE GUNS APART.

Let me repeat that.

DO NOT TAKE THOSE GUNS APART!

It's not that you're not capable of doing it, as I'm sure you are, but two vintage, excellent shape target Colts do not need to be opened up. Without the proper screwdrivers you are VERY LIKELY to mar the screw heads and potentially the sideplate. You would need to be very, very careful popping the sideplate off using a rubber mallet - but again, please don't do it! Drop some Breakfree CLP in through the top of the trigger. Many Colts had similar stacking trigger issues - seems to be the Colt design - shooting them will smooth things out, and if it doesn't for you, then maybe the Colt trigger isn't a good match for you. It is my understanding (and I'm sure Old Fuff can clarify) that these target revolvers were made when single-action competition was the bee's knees, and double action was really an afterthought.

Again, I don't mean any offense - I doubt you'll mess anything up internally, but I would seriously advise against attempting to open up a Colt without a screwdriver made for Colt screws.

If you must get inside there, there is only one publication you need: Jerry Kuhnhausen's The Colt Double Action Revolvers: A Shop Manual, Vol I.

 

[calaverasslim]

Birchwood Casey has a aerosol product namerd gun scrubber. Take your grips off and spray this product into your gun. Give it several minutes to dry and then lube with a quality gun lube of your choice. I recommend Remoil, by Remington. This will accomplish what your trying to do with out taking the gun apart.

 

[PRM]

If its working - leave it alone

As long as they are working leave them alone. There is not much that can go wrong with them. I would not go squirting oil or any other petroleum based lubricant into openings. You will eventually create a situation where you will have to have them taken apart and cleaned. Generally, the more oil on the internal parts the more crud collects. Petroleum products eventually form a varnish like substance on parts. If it bothers you that much and you don't have the gunsmithing screwdrivers and knowledge to to it. Take them to someone who does. Chance are they are ok. I have bought a number of vintage guns (95%+) and the internals for the most part are usually in great shape on them.

 

[Jim K]

Remove the grips and hose the insides down with Gun Scrubber or another penetrant/cleaner. (My personal preference is G96 Gun Treatment.)

Let drain and do it again. Then put a few drops of a good gun oil down in front of the hammer, in front of the trigger, and a drop on the extractor shaft and in the thumb latch. That should be all it will need.

FYI, in the days of revolver target shooting, most firing was done single action, which is why the DA pull was unimportant. In fact, anyone who shot a revolver DA was considered an "odd ball" and maybe a little subversive. (Yep, you guessed it; when I shot better scores DA than most did SA, I was really suspect! Wish I could still do it.)

Jim

 

[Dienekes]

+1 the above. S&Ws are a lot easier to get in and out of, and not everyone should do that either. As nice as those guns sound, the most I would do is what Jim advises and call it good. That's sufficient.

The best DAs Colt ever managed to get on their guns was on Pythons, and I was never all that impressed by them either.

It was a different game in a different era. Great old guns nonetheless.

 

[Beagle-zebub]

Asked Dad if it was safe to shoot the old revolvers - his reply was "Hell yes, these were quality guns and were made to be shot".

This part put a smile on my face.

 

[Jerry11826]

Guess you guys are right - In my heart I know you are - Will do nothing except run an oil soaked patch through the barrel and cylinder bores - remove the grips, coat the outside surfaces with RIG and put in gun safe.

Seems a little sad though - Dad really enjoyed shooting the old guns. He even tried to demonstrate how they used to "thumb" the hammer for rapid fire. He told me how the .38 was put on "lay-a-way" at J.T. Loyd in Little Rock, Arkansas - It cost $37.50 - and that was a lot when he was making $15.00 per week.

How times have changed.

Thanks to all that replied!

Jerry

 

[PRM]

Not Safe Queens

Because they are heirlooms, they really have no investment value to you, selling them is not an option. If something ever breaks, there are plenty of custom gunsmiths who can fix them. Shoot them, enjoy them, do what your Dad did with them, and then pass them on to another generation.

 

[dagger dog]

Jerry,

I'm the owner of a Officers Model in 38 special. This gun was a duty gun and was stored in a leather holster. The outside is pitted badly but the bore and cylinder chambers were not affected and are bright and shiny.
The old gun has one of the best double,or single action pulls and would put it up against ANY factory S&W, Python, Korth what have you, in the accuracy,or trigger department.

To get any where near the quality of these old Colts would require a custom job. They are one of the best buys for the money on the market for shooters.

If you have had any experience with revolvers, it is possible to dissamble the old Colt. Pictures, and a good book as previously mentioned will make the job easier.

If you haven't stripped a bunch of S&W's down to the bare frame and feel comfortable, I don't think I would have a go at the Colt though.

Find a competent revolver smith and have him go through the two old guns and bring them back to shooting form. You won't regret spending the $ as they are jewels in a world of rocks!

 

[Deanimator]

Now to the point of this post, finally! The double action trigger pull was awful - very heavy with extreme "stacking" at the end of the pull.

The only "fix" is to buy a Smith & Wesson. Colts are noted for their less than stellar D/A pulls. They can be smoothed up, but that's the fundamental nature of the mechanism. It comes with the territory.

 

[funnelcake]

Making generalizations about anything including Colt DA revolvers is probably not the best course to steer for a couple easy reasons:

1. They were built, fitted, and finished by a bunch of different folks over the years.

2. People are different and hence like different things.

The only thing I'd be comfortable saying is that Colt's mechanics might make for less consistency in the actions given point #1 from above. Just like cars or anything else mechanical elements will vary & you can get a "lemon", etc. This would have to be even more true with higher levels of handwork and involving so any different craftsmen.

Here are a few examples that might help eschew the common BS. I probably enjoy Colt DA revolvers most of all & what I'm typing below stems from owning more than a few of them:

"Pre-war Colts were finished second to none"

Really? I have plenty of late model Colts that prove you need to qualify this statement. Also, regarding the exterior finish, I'll say the pre-1926 weapons probably are most consistently in a league of their own, but from 30's - 90's? I like them all, but late-60's through 90's consistently exhibit a higher-level of polish. Don't get me wrong, I love the "polished-brushed" look from the 30's & 40's, but I've got examples from the 70's-90's that are Python-esque.

"The DA triggers...blah, blah, blah".

Different? Yes, from other makes & certainly from each other. Here are my observations. Trigger pull can & does vary...a lot. One of the best DA/ SA combo's I've used is a late-model (early 90's) Detective Special. Anyway, here are my notes:

1. Target revolvers, the Python, and the snubbies usually have the best DA triggers of the models (makes sense right?) From DA-based competition, to the highest-end model to a plainclothes yanking his Cobra out when needed (think he's going to cock it???). Are there exceptions to this rule? Resounding YES!

2. The better triggers, both DA & SA, (the Python & any Mark III or later type actions are both usually exceptions for different reasons) are most consistently found on later models (mid-60's & up). Shocking you say!!! Yes, period. Again, exceptions? Sure, but the odd's still rule.

Finally, the blanket statement "don't even look like you're going to remove a screw or you will irrevocably hose-up your Colt revolver". Undoubtedly the motivation for this are all the Bubba-type idiots out there. Fine, but I'd suggest asking a few questions prior to stowing away in a safe, selling, etc. The innards are complicated sure, but not voodoo-magic.

1. What are you trying to do?
2. Do you have reference material available?
3. Patience enough to take it slow?
4. Appropriate enough tools?

Past a point with anything, let a pro do it. I will say a lot can be accomplished by knowing ones limits and taking it slow. Reference material & the proper tools are mandatory though (but as above, a suitable tool may or may not be exactly what's called for --except screwdrivers-- Do Not use tapered screwdrivers on screws you care about!). Example: a 1948 PPS in .32. Had a pretty awful DA pull. On inspection, the mainspring adjustment didn't match most of it's counter-parts. Reviewed manuals, removed & trial/ tested incremental adjustments (note: NOT trying to obtain a .2-ounce trigger, just bring into line with the majority of others). End-result is a huge improvement with no safety issues, bunged-up screw-heads, or slashed side-plate. Moral? Be conscious & methodical about what you're doing & know your limits.

...rant over

Funnel

 

[krs]

"Guess you guys are right - In my heart I know you are - Will do nothing except run an oil soaked patch through the barrel and cylinder bores - remove the grips, coat the outside surfaces with RIG and put in gun safe."

Jerry,

No one has suggested that you not shoot the revolvers. The warning tone relates to the disassembly that you proposed.

By all means, SHOOT THEM!

There's nothing on the ammunition market that would harm the .22, but it's probably wise to stay with standard loads for the .38 special. Find some lead wadcutter bulleted ammunition, or some other lead bullet cartridge. Don't use any " +P " loads.

I really don't think that any factory .38 Special load that's on the market will hurt your revolver but why chance it by putting it under higher levels of strain than were available when the pistol was manufactured?

 

[Shade00]

If something ever breaks, there are plenty of custom gunsmiths who can fix them.

I couldn't disagree more. Qualified Coltsmiths are few and far between. While it's not necessary to baby the guns, I certainly would not recommend shooting them to heck and expecting to find a gunsmith around the corner who can ACTUALLY work on them. Many claim to be able to, but few really can.

Of course you should shoot them - just don't go inside them. No need.

 

[PRM]

Gunsmiths

I couldn't disagree more. Qualified Coltsmiths are few and far between - Shade00.

Didn't say they were on every street corner. My original post qualified "custom gunsmiths."

David Chicoine - www.oldwestgunsmith.com has been working on my guns for over 25 years and is one of the best. Although he specializes in vintage S&Ws, Colts are no problem, he custom built a Bisley for me. Is he qualified? Call S&W with a problem on a vintage gun and they will refer you to him.

I even sent a Colt Detective Special back to Colt Industries in 2004 and they fixed the timing for me.

Capable gunsmiths with experience on Colts are out there if needed and there is no reason not to shoot them..

 

[Master Blaster]

I would shoot them for sure.
put a little oil in them, they are dried out after not being shot for so long. I bought a 1960 4 screw K22 in excellent cosmetic condition from a local shop. The trigger was horrible, and the hammer would not reliably return to rest after a DA test. I bought the gun for a reduced price, thinking somone had messed with the trigger return spring, and I could fix it for $4.00
I took it home and took off the side plate, and it was clean as a whistle and dry as a bone inside.
The gun just needed a couple drops of oil, and it functioned perfectly, and the trigger improved 100%.

Oil them, and Shoot them but dont take them apart!!!!

 

[Shade00]

PRM, I didn't mean to doubt you. There are doubtless some qualified Coltsmiths out there. The point I was trying to make was a common one: there are many who claim to be qualified to work on Colt's double action, but there are not many who actually can. It's difficult to tell them apart sometimes. Yes, Colt will still work on many old revolvers, and yes, there are some individuals out there. There are not, however, plenty of them, and the number is not increasing. There's no reason not to shoot the revolvers, and I never said that he should refrain from shooting them; I just wanted to qualify it and say that qualified Coltsmiths are not that easy to find and point out that individuals should not take a Colt to just anyone.

 

[PRM]

Agree

Shade00 we agree on most of the posts. I have gotten into custom guns the last few years. What some of these guys do is amazing and most projects are easy fixes and very reasonable. I rarely use local gunsmiths anymore unless it is something really minor. I have seen some literally ruin guns while refinishing them because of aggressive buffing. Sharp edges, lettering and markings are taken off. Most other work is equally sloppy. A person has to beware. On the other hand a custom smith can not only repair a gun but create a work of art when needed. You just have to ask around.

__________________________________________________________________

My custom built Bisley from www.oldwestgunsmith.com - not bad for a parts gun.
Pre-ban ivory grips were by Jerry Meacham.

___________________________________________________________________

Vintage BBQ Gun, early 3 digit serial number (1880s) - I bought this one to resell

Mechanical work by David Chicoine at Old West Gunsmith
Engraving by John Pease
Engraved pre-ban ivory grips by Dan Chesiak
Silver Plating by Doug Turnbull

Comes with a fitted glass top case with frosted logos
1 full box of vintage 1880s .38 S&W ammo
Ivory tipped cleaning rod

Other pics can be seen at the Old West Gunsmith web site - link to guns for sale

This is what I meant by "custom gunsmiths"

 

[dagger dog]

Jerry,

Re reading your post, got my interest and went back to read some material on the Officers Models. According to one source those old revolvers (Officers Models) were all sent through the shop and "hand finished" which I take as stoning and tuning the action. The action in the Officers are predecessors of the Pythons. Any I have had the pleasure to handle or shoot have been superior to any S&W in smoothness and ease.

 

[Crowman]

Do not over look Colt. I've had the Colt factory work on a couple of revolvers for a modest charge and the work was first rate.