Old dog, new tricks- learning to live with an RDS on a pistol

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

Fast double taps at 7 yards. Probably would have been more centered if I'd zeroed the optic...

In a lot of ways an RDS is a better mousetrap. They've dominated speed-shooting competitions for decades, they allow better situational awareness, help prevent tunnel vision, put the sight in the same visual plane as the target etc. But they've been expensive and you need to spend even more money getting a slide cut for them. Now this is changing and a lot of guns come with an RMR cut and the sights are getting cheaper. When a company offered to send me a sight to review I said yes. Of course I needed a gun to review it... Enter the PSDA Dagger Compact. A buddy had an unfired gun and wanted something I had so we swapped. I tested the optic on that and another gun and it functioned as advertised and held zero through moderately unreasonable abuse, I did the review and moved on.

Of course now I had an RDS mounted on a pistol and figured it was time to learn to use it decently.

After forty years of iron sights and the Flash Sight Picture it's harder than you might expect. In fact it's about as hard as I expected. Slow-fire on the range is a doddle. Rapid sight acquisition is a bit harder and takes some work. If you're me, I mean. I'm working on it and the most successful method I have found so far it to simply point the gun with both eyes open and if I do it right the dot appears in my field of vision. Seems simple but it's a very different skill than rapidly acquiring the front sight and centering it in the rear sight while maintaining a laser-sharp focus on the front sight. It takes patience and practice. So I am doing that. It would help if the optic worked with the co-witness sights I think, but it's too tall. So I keep working on it.

Fortunately it seems this skill isn't a replacement for four decades of experience; it's additive. It does not change or interfere with my iron sight skill set; it's a different animal altogether. I'm old but I can still learn new things so I'll keep working at it and no doubt there are more RDS in my future.

 

[someguy2800]

I have mixed feelings on the utility for self defense. It’s incredible how easy it makes it to make hits on small targets at long distance. I do a lot of that like shooting a basketball sized steel plate at 50 yards. A red dot makes that child’s play. At like 15 yards or less shooting silhouette size targets I have a hard time seeing the advantage. The kind of training drill I like to do is drawing and alternating shooting two different targets while walking backwards briskly and forcing both eyes open focused on the target. I can’t do that kind of practical shooting as efficiently with a red dot as I can with my typical 3 white outline tritium sights. Perhaps I just need more time but I suspect a red dot is never going to match good visible irons for that kind of close and course shooting. In todays world of mass shootings and the potential for terrorist attacks like what happened in Israel, the possibility of having to engage someone with a rifle at 50+ yards is a serious consideration, and a red dot is in a whole different league for that kind of shooting.

 

[someguy2800]

I’m curious if in 10 more years a red dot on a carry pistol will be a fad of the past or if it’s here to stay for good.

 

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

So far I have found that slowly bringing the gun to a firing position allows me to pick up the red dot exactly as if it were the front sight. Keep doing it slow, over and over until it becomes automatic. Don't try to go fast, don't hurry. Lots and lots of repetitions, just like I had to do with iron sights.

One problem I identified was that since both eyes were open I kept trying to center the dot between them. That doesn't work; it still needs to be centered on my dominant eye. After I realized what I was doing and stopped it got easier.

It also helps to view this not as 'unlearning' old skills, but rather adding a new one, a skill that is related to the old skill but is it's own thing.

 

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

I’m curious if in 10 more years a red dot on a carry pistol will be a fad of the past or if it’s here to stay for good.

I think in ten years they'll be built in to a lot of pistols.

 

[hemiram]

I think in ten years they'll be built in to a lot of pistols.

I am kind of surprised it hasn't happened yet. I have just gotten into the RDS thing on a handgun, and my only real complaint is that the sights with auto brightness aren't really bright enough in normal light. In the dark, they both are perfect, but it's about 2 clicks too dim in any kind of room or outdoors with a fairly bright light level. The manually adjusted ones are great in just about every way.

 

[someguy2800]

I think in ten years they'll be built in to a lot of pistols.

Was actually just thinking that

 

[trackskippy]

This is something I've been putting off for a number of years now, as I knew I would like them and get sucked in, and thats exactly what has happened.

I just got my first a couple of weeks ago and now have three guns with a dot on them, two Glocks and a SIG P320. Already working on getting another Glock, probably a 45 or 47 with an RMR. It never ends!

At first blush, it was a bit awkward, but I really havent found it to be too much of an adjustment. Its just a matter of getting the presentation indexes ingrained into your brain.

One thing I think that does make this easier is if you are a "point shooter" and are accustomed to "target focus" and bringing the gun up to eye level and shooting over the top of the gun without using the sights. If so, its likely going to be a lot easier. And if you think about it, thats pretty much exactly what youre doing when you shoot with a dot. Its just now, the dot is in your field of view, where the sights would be below it.

That was my first epiphany and has made things a lot easier. Focus on the target (like you do when shooting a long gun with a red dot) and present the gun like youre point shooting the target, and the dot is usually always right there, especially with a two hand hold.

One handed and shooting from odd positions is a little more of a challenge, but still, the "point"/instinct type shooting thing seems to work the most naturally. At least for me anyway.

Lots of dry fire presentations are definitely your friend here too.

Shooting live ammo takes a little bit of getting used to too. That dot looks like it's flying all over the place as youre shooting. Yet, the targets say otherwise.

For me, my rifle red dots are a lot more solid and steadier. The handgun dot is more like switching from rifle irons to a scope. Every little movement seems more agitated, and steadying that down takes more focus.

It also helps to view this not as 'unlearning' old skills, but rather adding a new one, a skill that is related to the old skill but is it's own thing.

I think youre dead on here.

I think in ten years they'll be built in to a lot of pistols.

And here too.

These arent going anywhere but forward, and just look at how far things have come in just the past decade with pretty much everything, not just sights.

 

[entropy]

Fortunately with red dots on pistols, non firing practice is a very valuable tool, moreso than with iron sights. It also reinforces good gripping. My two handed hold pretty much comes up dead on now after much practice, still working on one handed. (I have no 'weak hand', as I'm a mostly right handed shooter, but left eye dominant, so I can shoot handguns equally well, left is better for Bullseye)
I remember the first time I shot a friend's MkII with an Aimpoint at 25 and then 50 yards (bagged off a bench) and it felt like cheating. It didn't occur to me then that they would be useful for shorter distances, but with pract, they definitely are. Another tool in the toolbox.
I got a TX-22C and put a red dot on it as a less expensive practice gun than shooting the red dotted Gx4 all the time.

 

[Russ57]

My 2 cents and experiences.

As a 2700 target guy I have used the tube style red dots (Utradot) for a long time. The improvements in scores are undeniable. Target acquisition is fast. Rapid fire (in 2700 match) is 5 shots in 10 seconds. It is easy with a .45 ACP.

Recently I have been working on a .45 ACP with a GI rear sight cut. I didn't want to go through the cost and bother of sending the slide to someone. EGW makes a sight mount that fits the GI dovetail and I mounted a Holosun 507C X2 on it. Target acquisition (with 2 MOA dot) is more difficult for me but accuracy is good. I don't think I could complete a rapid fire target with it yet. The 32 MOA circle is quick and just the right size for a 25 yard B8 target. Rapid fire is no problem with that reticle. However accuracy isn't as good for me.

The Holosun has a solar generator for fail safe operation in daytime. Battery life is rated up to 50K hours and it has a shake awake feature. I would trust it on a self defense weapon. I think I would be quicker with iron sights in good light. I think I would be far more accurate with the dot in poor light conditions. At this point in time my self defense pistol has Heinie straight eight sights.

 

[doubleh]

I have played around with them for several years and really like them on my plinking pistols. At my age anything more is an exercise in futility. Upon on cataract removal iron sights without prescription glasses is perfectly doable now but I am still better with a red dot. I have come to the conclusion that irons are better on SD gun. The sights you use is a personal choice that each has to make and this post is worth exactly what you paid to read it.

 

[CajunBass]

I’m curious if in 10 more years a red dot on a carry pistol will be a fad of the past or if it’s here to stay for good.

I think in ten years there will something totally different that we haven't even seen on the horizon yet. How many of us even knew what an RDS was ten years ago? Ten years ago, I had a laser on my guns. That was what all the cool kids had.

 

[Oklahoma Hank]

I am also trying it. I am 67, so I have been using irons a long time.
I just did Dot Torture with a Glock 17 with a Holosun, then a 43x with XS big dots. The results were pretty similar. Good accuracy on single fire, drifting low and left on strings.
I have tried the Holosun on dot, circle, and circle/dot. Dot alone and circle alone are ok. The two together are too busy for me and lead me to look at the reticle rather than the target.
The best advice I got was to slightly tilt the muzzle up, present at eye level earlier in the presentation, and squeeze the pinkies as the muzzle comes onto target. Usually the red dot is above the reticle and the pinkie squeeze brings it down.

 

[Oklahoma Hank]

I think in ten years there will something totally different that we haven't even seen on the horizon yet. How many of us even knew what an RDS was ten years ago? Ten years ago, I had a laser on my guns. That was what all the cool kids had.

I still have a laser on the snubbie which I sometimes ankle carry. I figure if I am drawing from an ankle holster I am lying on my back or some other weird shooting position. N

 

[CajunBass]

I still have a laser on the snubbie which I sometimes ankle carry. I figure if I am drawing from an ankle holster I am lying on my back or some other weird shooting position. N

I've still got a CT grip for a K-frame S&W revolver that I was playing with a couple of days ago. I don't remember ever using it before, heck I don't even know where it came from. I know I didn't pay the $250.00 price marked on the box. Anyway I put it on a Model 19 and was surprised to find it was a very comfortable grip. But I don't carry a K-frame, and the CT was much too ugly to replace the factory target grips on my Model 19. They went back into the box. Maybe I "need" a beater Model 10. Ummmmmm

I've also got a Ruger Ready dot for my Taurus G3 T.O.R,O.. that I have least tried out a few times. It has potential. I've also used a couple other RDS sights, but have never really committed to them. I'm too lazy to do the work to learn the new trick, and too cheap to buy new holsters,

 

[kimberkid]

I think in ten years they'll be built in to a lot of pistols.

I thought that about LaserMax guide-rod and grip lasers, the only problem with them is that you have to hunt for the dot.

 

[I6turbo]

I thought that about LaserMax guide-rod and grip lasers, the only problem with them is that you have to hunt for the dot.

Bring the gun up on the target just like you do when shooting with the iron sights only. The laser will co-witness with the iron sights. From then on you can use the laser dot. If, while trying to find the target, you're chasing the dot around like a cat, you're doing it wrong.

 

[TonyAngel]

There is definitely a learning curve. My first shot on target, at defensive distances, is faster with open sights, but I'm faster in strings of fire with the red dot. My carry gun does not have a red dot, yet.

 

[shafter]

I’m curious if in 10 more years a red dot on a carry pistol will be a fad of the past or if it’s here to stay for good.

They're here to stay. The same debate was had when people first began putting them on rifles and now it's rare to see a rifle of any kind without some sort of optic.

 

[someguy2800]

They're here to stay. The same debate was had when people first began putting them on rifles and now it's rare to see a rifle of any kind without some sort of optic.

Its easy to say that about anything that is now commonplace while overlooking many other trends that have come and gone. Red dots on pistols are certainly not going away but I don't think they will become as ubiquitous as optics on rifles.

 

[someguy2800]

There is definitely a learning curve. My first shot on target, at defensive distances, is faster with open sights, but I'm faster in strings of fire with the red dot. My carry gun does not have a red dot, yet.

That has also been my experience

 

[trackskippy]

Im thinking this boils down to "you dont know what you dont know". If you made the switch from irons to dots with your long guns, you have a real good clue.

They will continue to get smaller and cheaper, and before long, more and more people are going to get sucked in, same as what went on with the long guns. And thats already started to happen with the handgun sights.


So far, at defensive distances, Im just as fast with either, as Im not using either, although I am seeing the dot a lot of times now, as its just there when the gun comes up, where before, the sights were below my line of sight. I noromally shoot over the top of the gun up close and dont normally use sights, at least not consciously.

For the short while Ive been playing with the dot now, at any distance while using it, I am more accurate, and my deliberately aimed groups are tighter, and its more noticeable the further I go out. The more I play with it, reactive type shooting is getting a lot easier and more natural too, and I rarely have to look for the dot now, two hands, one hand, whatever.

Yea, there is a learning curve, but thats up to you as to how hard you want to make it too. As I've said before, if youre a point shooter, I think its going to be a lot easier, but even so, its not all that hard, but you do have to put in the time to let your brain figure things out and get the indexes. And as with anything, the more effort and time you put into it, the easier it gets.

My carry guns dont have dots on them "yet", but I can see that happening here in pretty short order.

 

[Riomouse911]

View attachment 1175805
Fast double taps at 7 yards. Probably would have been more centered if I'd zeroed the optic...

In a lot of ways an RDS is a better mousetrap. They've dominated speed-shooting competitions for decades, they allow better situational awareness, help prevent tunnel vision, put the sight in the same visual plane as the target etc. But they've been expensive and you need to spend even more money getting a slide cut for them. Now this is changing and a lot of guns come with an RMR cut and the sights are getting cheaper. When a company offered to send me a sight to review I said yes. Of course I needed a gun to review it... Enter the PSDA Dagger Compact. A buddy had an unfired gun and wanted something I had so we swapped. I tested the optic on that and another gun and it functioned as advertised and held zero through moderately unreasonable abuse, I did the review and moved on.

Of course now I had an RDS mounted on a pistol and figured it was time to learn to use it decently.
View attachment 1175807
After forty years of iron sights and the Flash Sight Picture it's harder than you might expect. In fact it's about as hard as I expected. Slow-fire on the range is a doddle. Rapid sight acquisition is a bit harder and takes some work. If you're me, I mean. I'm working on it and the most successful method I have found so far it to simply point the gun with both eyes open and if I do it right the dot appears in my field of vision. Seems simple but it's a very different skill than rapidly acquiring the front sight and centering it in the rear sight while maintaining a laser-sharp focus on the front sight. It takes patience and practice. So I am doing that. It would help if the optic worked with the co-witness sights I think, but it's too tall. So I keep working on it.

Fortunately it seems this skill isn't a replacement for four decades of experience; it's additive. It does not change or interfere with my iron sight skill set; it's a different animal altogether. I'm old but I can still learn new things so I'll keep working at it and no doubt there are more RDS in my future.

While rifle dots have been around for ages, a LOT of LE are going to handgun dots. And, surprisingly enough, many are older guys who are experiencing our inevitable vision changes. Over my 31+ years in the biz LE folks usually fought any sort of changes like crazy, so this is a positive in my book.

The range staffs and OIS incident reports are finding telling hits in practice and on suspects are more attainable with sidearms under stress, and errant shots reduced, which is exactly the thing needed to stop any lethal force encounter as quickly as possible. These are fairly recent, and rather anecdotal, impressions, but the trend I have been seeing, hearing and reading is positive so far.

I just put dots on my Gen 3 Glock 17 build and a OEM Glock 43X MOS. It took about ten shots each to get both zeroed right on at 10 yards. My own experience has been positive, hits are pretty darn easy and two-eyed shooting is great to 25 yards now. I will admit though, my range use to date with the dots has been more sedate than the challenging training and quals we did on SRT-SWAT for all those years.



I see this as the wave of the future, and one I think is here to stay.

Stay safe.

 

[SKILCZ]

I think that while there's a learning curve, RDSs are an absolute win. You can stay target focused with the dot superimposed as opposed to having to align 3 different focal distances with open sights. For those whose arms suddenly become too short as they age, this can be a huge bonus. In low light, it's easier to pick up a RDS than front sights. You can be more accurate at distance and with rapid fire with a RDS. The RDS also gives you something with which to easily rack the slide one-handed should you need to.

While I wish Holosun optics were made in the U.S., the ACSS reticles on the Holosun dots are great for beginners and non-beginners alike as the outer circle is easy to pick up and causes you to intuitively correct and center the dot/chevron. The reticle also gives you some ranging capability. If Trijicon or another American company used ACSS reticles for pistol RDS (they do for some ACOGs), I think they'd clean up. That reticle is very valuable, IMO.

Regarding presentation technique, another option with a thumbs forward grip is to point your non-dominant thumb at the target. This helps align the dot in your FOV. Dry fire and draw practice at home can help quite a bit.

There's definitely a learning curve coming from decades of iron sights, but it's a worthwhile trade-off, IMO. It still uses a lot of the same fundamentals and adds more tools to your tool belt. Plus you have backup iron sights, so your decades of practice and experience with them are not lost.

 

[Howland937]

The folks that find them hard to use are likely not remembering how much time they spent shooting to develop whatever proficiency they now have. Roughly 40 years of shooting without having used a pistol optic until the last couple of years. Like anything else, commit to it and it'll come around. I "learned" to shoot with only my dominant eye open. I've been trying hard to un-learn that, but it's not been easy. Learning to use a dot optic on a pistol has helped me on that path more than anything else I've done.