old double barrel questions

[firemanstrickland]

hello all,
I need some info on an old double barrel and I have very limited information on it. All I know is its a Belgium 1892 Peiper arms company double barrel and I only have this one pic. Can anyone tell me anything about it? maybe possible values as well?

 

[Jim K]

Pieper made some of the better guns to come out of Belgium but I would consider that one a wall hanger. It looks to have Damascus barrels, and IMHO that eliminates it from shooting.

I have heard personally and have seen on the net statements to the effect that not only were Damascus guns safe with black powder, but that the barrels are stronger than modern steel barrels. I can only disagree, very strongly. I consider all Damascus, twist, laminate, or any built-up barrels as unsafe to fire. Period.

Jim

 

[firemanstrickland]

so is it a cartridge gun? or muzzle loader? it looks like it has nipples for caps but I honestly have no clue

 

[Jim K]

It is a cartridge gun, but without more and better pictures or information, I can't tell what gauge it is. The original proof marks, with the gauge and chamber length should be on the bottom of the barrels and can be seen when the barrels are removed.

Jim

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I agree with Jim K about safety if it is indeed a damascas barrel. Belgian makers did use damascas barrels, but usually used drawn barrels and sometimes had a fake finish to look like damascas. Even back in the 1960's all the hunter safety instructors warned folks not to shoot high brass in a damascas or twist barrel.

I remember seeing a damascas barrel that had ruptured and looked like a frayed rope where it separated.

 

[firemanstrickland]

ok, thanks for the info, I will post more info and pics as I get them.

 

[rcmodel]

Even back in the 1960's all the hunter safety instructors warned folks not to shoot high brass in a damascas or twist barrel.

I was a Hunter Safety Instructor in the 70's.

And High-Brass has nothing to do with it.

Shotgun pressure is about the same, whether low brass or high brass.
Low-Brass HV trap loads may produce just as much chamber pressure as 2 3/4" Magnums.

They use faster burning powder then heavy high-brass loads, and peak chamber pressure can easily be as much as the heaviest Magnum load.

Personally, I have known three people locally who lost fingers on their left hand when Damascus barrels let go right over where they had their hand holding the forearm.
One of them lost an eye.

I would not shoot smokeless powder loads in one on a bet!

rc

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Re. Sounds logical just repeating what the PA hunter safety instructors drilled into us. My father worked for the game commission and taught the instructors. He has a collection of firearm failures that he used back then for demonstration of what could happen. Some scary stuff on the wall in his study.

 

[Crawdad1]

Here's some good information on the Pieper family of gunmakers of Belgium.

http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/a a artisans identifies gb.htm#P

Looks like a replacement hammer, and the throw looks incorrect, the locks are missing pins or screws, I don't even know what's going with the wood behind the lock, but all in all the gun looks pretty well worn out.

 

[firemanstrickland]

yeah, like I said I haven't even got my hands on it but I am really shying away from it. He only wants $50 bucks for it, that's my problem lol

 

[Curator]

From the looks of the picture, the left hammer has been replaced with a true percussion hammer. not the correct breech-loading hammer. No way this hammer could strike the firing pin. Parts for these guns are nearly non-existent.

 

[col.lemat]

Offer $25 then get $50 at a buy back

 

[Crawdad1]

He only wants $50 bucks for it, that's my problem lol

Its not even worth that. I wouldn't take it even if he handed it to me, it's nothing but trouble.

 

[totallyeftup]

10 grains and a grease patch

I will try 10 grains with a paper barrel, we are talking about 3 firecrackers of pressure. Just keep your hands away from the barrel, or shoot it like these guys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZaK7D4XVo8

 

[Crawdad1]

I will try 10 grains with a paper barrel, we are talking about 3 firecrackers of pressure. Just keep your hands away from the barrel, or shoot it like these guys

What?????

 

[the Black Spot]

It would take some tinkering to get the hammer to hit the firing pin. Then it would be a handload only propisition with a small load of 2f blackpowder, assuming it locked up well.

If he threw in the gun case and cat it would be a good deal!

 

[Jim K]

FWIW, the problem with smokeless powder in Damascus barrels is not so much the chamber pressure, but the burning curve. Smokeless powder burns slower than black powder ("progressive burning") and maintains pressure further out in the barrel. Because BP pressure drops off quickly, most BP barrels thin down just before the end of the forearm, allowing the gun to be lighter at the front end and with more "whip" as the old timers used to say.

So smokeless powder pressures are still high at the point the barrels become thin, which is just where the shooter's off hand is usually placed. When the barrel lets go, it usually takes a couple of fingers along for the ride.

Add that to the fact that no matter how strong a Damascus barrel might have been when it was new (those who claim there is no danger always cite the fact that the barrels passed proof), years of corrosion eating into the welds will have weakened the barrels. I have sectioned a few old Damascus guns and found the interiors to be like dirty lace, in spite of nice exteriors and bores that looked clean and shiny.

Jim