Old time shooter not impressed with the AR platform and wanting to talk about the AK

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Varminterror said:
In fairness, I have had my son shooting since he was 2. Very, very controlled circumstances, but he demonstrated the ability to take it on, and he did well with it.

But yeah, I feel like the rest of this thing is just a pile of coat hangers and cat crap...
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Take it on? I feel like I missed something irrelevant.

Coat hangers and cat crap? You had to take on a lot of things in your youth too huh?
 
I've got a Romy AK, lucked into buying just before the Russia bans doubled AK prices overnight.

For $400, I wasn't that happy with it. The stock length and drop suck and it's just not comfortable to shoot. I can't hit squat with it.

For $800 nowadays, I wouldn't even consider one.
 
Hokie_PhD said:
He also implies that the AR isn't a reliable platform. I'd suggest that he look at some of the YouTube torture test videos. The one on the PSA Freedom AR is very telling. I think it was done by IraqVet8888.

If you run an AR dry, drag it on a dirt road behind a truck at speed, and even try to blow it up and it survives it tells a great deal about the platform.

Now if someone doesn't like ARs for whatever reason, then I say that's their business. But saying that ARs aren't reliable based on issues that the Army had in Vietnam is not right.

As for OP, I agree with you, I had a hard time understanding what they really wanted, or if it was just a rant hidden in a bunch of tangents.

In any case, I love the AR platform. I'm not a fan of the AK, but I'll admit I've never shot one, and I just don't find them appealing. Now that doesn't mean I think the AK is junk or can't hit a target. The opposite is true in that I think like the AR they're a platform that has stood the test of time. I just have no interest in getting one now. Yes, I'd shoot one if given the chance, and I may get one down the road if money and desire come about. But that's my little tangent.

I guess my comment to OP is what are you really saying/asking/etc?
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You sir make a very valid point. I will look at the PSA AR.

The OP is about asking what is the AK-47 version of the epic rifles? I would consider the h&k 416 to be an epic AR15. The M14 is an epic battle rifle, the M21 even epic-er lol. I just need the ak in 7.62x51. Honestly I think I’m gonna just go with a m14, I was just hoping to lighten the load and my search has brought me to the AK hence why I’m asking about it.

The 7.62x39 is silly but anywhere outside of america it’s practical because silly people said so. The .223 (or 556) is a round for the range and imo is not a responsible round for anything large hog size or above and is ridiculous to go to war with in Vietnam or Iraq or anywhere else regardless of time or era. At least go with the AR10. Again though, this is my opinion although I feel relevant because so many people take ar15s to the range they feel it’s great everywhere, not the case (haha pun intended), and I wanna know about the AK, not AR. The AR platform’s hk 416 or ddmk18 is used simply to relate level of implied epicness
 
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AKs and SKSs are gtg imo. ARs are too. When I sat foot down in Vietnam in 68, those "issues" were long gone or perhaps they just never occurred around me. Swore up and down the plastic gun would never, ever see my hands ever again. I now have several. Same deal with the 1911. Perhaps it took 2 + decades for me to see the light.:D

Actually, my first civilian 1911 was whenever Springfield introduced them in the 80s and I had no pistol at the time. My first AR was purchased due to, imo, the country going stupid, having an intimate relationship with A1s/ 2s, and deciding I'd best be arming up. The OP is really off on this one in multiple ways.
 
Mosin Bubba said:
I've got a Romy AK, lucked into buying just before the Russia bans doubled AK prices overnight.

For $400, I wasn't that happy with it. The stock length and drop suck and it's just not comfortable to shoot. I can't hit squat with it.

For $800 nowadays, I wouldn't even consider one.
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Yea I keep hearing AKs issues with accuracy. The current crowd though speak of overcoming that. The mixed info makes this tough to feel confident about the platform. More so than other platforms I mean
 
imashooter said:
AKs and SKSs are gtg imo. ARs are too. When I sat foot down in Vietnam in 68, those "issues" were long gone or perhaps they just never occurred around me. Swore up and down the plastic gun would never, ever see my hands ever again. I now have several. Same deal with the 1911. Perhaps it took 2 + decades for me to see the light.:D

Actually, my first civilian 1911 was whenever Springfield introduced them in the 80s and I had no pistol at the time. My first AR was purchased due to, imo, the country going stupid, having an intimate relationship with A1s/ 2s, and deciding I'd best be arming up. The OP is really off on this one in multiple ways.
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I’m just finding the AK platform difficult to study. I mean they have been a kit gun for much of the world for a very long time made by everyone and their grandmother. Probably a statement to be taken literally. I even found one of the ak kits in a box dusting out the closet a couple days ago. I’m just wanting to find today’s top AKs and compare. Iwi’s galil and scar 17 are the top contenders art that I know of and I’m thinking the old m14 is a better way to go compared. It’s just heavy is my problem
 
Pointlesswonder said:
The 7.62x39 is silly but anywhere outside of america it’s practical because silly people said so. The .223 (or 556) is a round for the range and imo is not a responsible round for anything large hog size or above and is ridiculous to go to war with in Vietnam or Iraq or anywhere else regardless of time or era. At least go with the AR10. Again though, this is my opinion although I feel relevant because so many people take ar15s to the range they feel it’s great everywhere, not the case (haha pun intended), and I wanna know about the AK, not AR. The AR platform’s hk 416 or ddmk18 is used simply to relate level of implied epicness
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Buddy...

You got to be trolling now.
 
OP if you want a really nice AK, or AK type rifle. Ignore 75% of the posts here (Haters gonna hate) and if you have the money call KREB’s and tell them what you want. https://www.krebscustom.com/

Other than them, I’d look hard at the Russian VEPR rifles. They’re some of the finest AK style rifles, though not true AK’s, they are very nice and come with fairly heavy barrels unlike most AK’s.

And again, just ignore the offended AR fan boys, it doesn’t take much to upset some of them.
 
DeepSouth said:
OP if you want a really nice AK, or AK type rifle. Ignore 75% of the posts here (Haters gonna hate) and if you have the money call KREB’s and tell them what you want. https://www.krebscustom.com/

Other than them, I’d look hard at the Russian VEPR rifles. They’re some of the finest AK style rifles, though not true AK’s, they are very nice and come with fairly heavy barrels unlike most AK’s.

And again, just ignore the offended AR fan boys, it doesn’t take much to upset some of them.
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Not sure if you read the op or the rest of the thread.

I haven't seen a single AR fanboy post.

I have read a number of very questionable posts, however. And a lot of people trying to help OP.

ETA: and you know what, your last sentence is really out of line. All these replies have been trying to help this dude out.
 
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@DeepSouth - you may have missed the OP’s assertion that the actual AK in it’s 7.62x39mm chambering is silly, and only recommended by silly people?

The dude is fixated on a rifle which doesn’t exist - a $2700 AK chambered in 7.62x51/308. Which of course, he actually asked for 7.62x59mm...
 
I don't have any experience with an AK but I watched a guy on the next table shoot his for about 15 minutes. He had a target set up at 100 yds and he was doing poorly even tho the AK had some type of scope on it. I would say he was shooting about 8 MOA. I waited until he was finished and ask him if he needed any help spotting. Well that was the wrong question. He just gave me a dirty look and walked away. From that I assumed that was about as good as it gets. He was using steel EB ammo.
 
I've had both, and prefer the AR generally. For what it was designed to do, the AK is a great gun, and its caliber is far from 'silly'. It was never designed to be a tack driver.

Now, a 7.62x59...that'd fall somewhere between .308 and .30-06...
 
Corpral_Agarn said:
Not sure if you read the op or the rest of the thread.

I haven't seen a single AR fanboy post.

I have read a number of very questionable posts, however. And a lot of people trying to help OP.

ETA: and you know what, your last sentence is really out of line. All these replies have been trying to help this dude out.
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I don't even own an AR (not a fan) and from what I've seen some of them can shoot 1 moa with the right ammo. Most AR owners don't reload however so they will never see it. The one's I'm seeing new in the 2K range using good match ammo (70 gr) can shoot. Every now and then you get a cheap one that will do that with 55 gr factory ammo.:eek: Seen that too.
 
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Corpral_Agarn said:
Not sure if you read the op or the rest of the thread.

I haven't seen a single AR fanboy post.

I have read a number of very questionable posts, however. And a lot of people trying to help OP.

ETA: and you know what, your last sentence is really out of line. All these replies have been trying to help this dude out.
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Varminterror said:
@DeepSouth - you may have missed the OP’s assertion that the actual AK in it’s 7.62x39mm chambering is silly, and only recommended by silly people?

The dude is fixated on a rifle which doesn’t exist - a $2700 AK chambered in 7.62x51/308. Which of course, he actually asked for 7.62x59mm...
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I suppose y’all are probably right, not to make excuses but I just woke up (working midnights) and more skimmed than read every post. That’s my bad, I just saw a guy ask a question about nice high end AK’s and not getting an answer. Maybe I miss judged some attitudes as well.

My apologies to all, I’ll reread everything when I’m good and awake around 2am. Lol
 
Varminterror said:
Which operators would those be? Because that kind of nonsense really hasn’t been the soldier sentiment for 30-40years...
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Agree.

For work, I've read a bunch of AARs and when I first retired conducted a a lot of post rotation interviews of redeploying units. I mean a lot during the height of OIF/OEF we caught every BCT that returned and other than M9s (and some SAWs) I heard very, very, few issues with M4s and M16s.

My organization conducts the Army's issue resolution process in coordination with the combat developments guys and FORSCOM units and if there are a bunch of small arms issues it hasn't come up. We literally go through AARs to identify issue trends and still conduct post rotation collections. I've been with this organization since 2005 when I retired, small arms problems are not something we have worked. (I was also a branch chief while in uniform in 99-2000). IF it was as big of an issue as what we read on the internet, it should have come up.

My employer:

https://usacac.army.mil/organizations/mccoe/call
 
Pointlesswonder said:
The .223 (or 556) is a round for the range and imo is not a responsible round for anything large hog size or above and is ridiculous to go to war with in Vietnam or Iraq or anywhere else regardless of time or era.
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A couple of points then I'll give it a rest. The various models of M16s M4s were / are a very effective weapon against enemy personnel. That's just a fact which can't be argued. As were the AKs, SKSs, and their Chinese variants. The 5.56 round is an excellent round against humans when your goal is to diminish / stop a threat. Regarding hogs, I'd prefer a bit more punch (like my 300blk), but with today's defense and varmint loads, a 5.56 will work just fine.

I encourage you to get what you want and truly hope you find your "dream" weapon, but don't make calls or use internet bs on a weapon with which you appear to have no firsthand experience.
 
earplug said:
Accuracy is far superior then any AK based rifle.
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IndianaBoy said:
AKs are crude and sloppy. The AR-15 platform is a vastly better rifle all the way around.
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On average an AR is more reliable than people give it credit for, and the AK is more accurate that people give it credit for. I have certainly seen AR's that would only shoot 3-5 MOA, and I personally owned an AK74 that would do 2-3 MOA with surplus ammo. Luck of the draw. On average an AR shooting average ammo, will have an edge over the average AK shooting average ammo, in accuracy probably. A lot of that is that average AK ammo is less inherently accurate than AR ammo. The AR platform has some things going for it, as does the AK. In certain aspects is the AR better, yes, but in certain areas the AK has advantages over the AR.

To get to the OP's question, however disjointed things may be up to this point:

A 7.62x51 NATO/.308 winchester AK is a specialty item, that to my knowledge has never been produced as a military arm. The closest I know of is an 8mm AK, produced as the Zastava M76, in Yugoslavia. These were basically designated marksman's rifles, and work well for that. A friend has one, it's pretty much an upscaled AR, sort of like the AR10 vs AR15 (I know the AR15 is a scaled down AR10). 8mm Mauser hits with authority just as well as 7.62x51/.308 does.

If you're not committed to the AK platform, there are plenty of 7.62x51/.308 rifles out there that are not AR based. The big 2 options are the G3 and FAL.

The H&K G3 is still in active duty with a couple of militaries, and the civilian version is the HK91. Mags used to be dirt cheap, no clue on them now, I haven't looked in years. Ergonomics on the G3 aren't great, just like most H&K products, but they do run well and shoot well.

The FN FAL is also still in active duty with a couple of militaries. Multiple companies sell rifles made either from kits, and DSA makes a complete rifle on new receivers. Mags are reasonable in price, and the ergonomics are a bit better than the G3. You can get an FAL in everything from super shorties with rails everywhere, to the original 21" fixed stock iron sight rifle.

There are plenty of other 7.62/.308 battle rifles out there like the Beretta BM59, CETME, etc.

I wouldn't discount the smaller calibers like 7.62x39, 5.45x39, 5.56x45, etc. All of them work quite well for self defense purposes, and I will give the 5.56x45 the nod for having probably the best ammo options out there. Speer Gold Dot is superlative for SD/HD purposes, and is extremely accurate as well. Hornady TAP would be my second choice, and is also an excellent round. In .308 pretty much the exact same two recommendations. In 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 I am not aware of anyone producing a round specifically for SD/HD. Hornady does make pretty good hunting rounds in those calibers, but they are not purpose designed SD/HD rounds. Accuracy in my experience is excellent if your rifle likes them.
 
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And there you have it. Well, said Jenrick.

If you are ex-military (not an ex-vet), I understand your apprehension with the AR platform, particularly if you were issued an A1. I was an Armorer when I was in, and was burnt-out on the AR platform when I got out. I did build one then, because I believe every able-bodied male should have one, but was not enthused by them, because of my experiences with the A1. I built an AK when the kits were cheap, and while I like them, the AR's had improved. My son traded me his, and I re-discovered the utility, as well as the better ergonomics, of the AR. I have since built another.
As for caliber, there are plenty of choices available in the AR platform, not so much in the AK. A .308 in an AK isn't really an AK anymore, IMHO. It's more a PSL, M76 (8mm or .30-06) or Dragunov.
 
Entertaining thread. As a user of all three platforms the OP is interested in I don't have much to add. I was issued and loved the M-14. But I agree with Jenrick, I think he wants a FAL or clone, but doesn't know enough to know about them. Time has passed the AK but they still make copies because people still buy them. Mythology dies hard. AK's are ideal for people that expect a zombie attack. LOL.
 
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