On-campus knife carry- how small is small enough?

[Njal Thorgeirsson]

I currently attend a university that prohibits weapons on campus. Long story short, I'd really like to carry some sort of knife solely for utility purposes, specifically something I can throw on my keychain. I thought about getting a Leatherman Squirt, but I always have a Skeletool w/ bit kit (blade removed) available so a simple knife would adequately fill the niche.

University policy states that knives carried for self defense are not allowed, but those used for cooking or university-related activities (art) are. As far as the policy explicitely goes, a sub-two-inch knife on a keychain is in sort of a grey area.

Spyderco makes quite a few models in very tiny sizes, so what do you think the largest model I could safely/legally get away with might be? Ladybug?

Thanks for the input!

 

[Frank Ettin]

......so what do you think the largest model I could safely/legally get away with might be? .....

How could we know?

First, you say it's university policy, so it's not a matter of law (unless this is a state school).

Second, a lot depends on exactly what the policy says and what the school's practices enforcing the policy have been and are.

Third, how will you explain your reasons for having the knife and what evidence will you be able to put forward to support your claims? Are you regularly using the knife for benign purposes, e. g., to slice a hunk of sausage or piece of fruit for lunch or a snack? A pattern of actually using the knife for "utility" purposes can go a long way toward supporting your position that it isn't a weapon.

And another way to go about this would be to think in terms of the smallest knife that can serve your utility needs, instead of thinking in terms of what's the largest knife you could get away with.

 

[danez71]

Frank brings up a lot of good points, as always.


Do you have a copy of the policy to share with us?

I'm also curious as to the policy for pepper spray, if any...?

 

[Njal Thorgeirsson]

Thanks for the replies!

First, you say it's university policy, so it's not a matter of law (unless this is a state school).

It is a state school. Carrying a small knife does not conflict with any local/state ordinances/laws. You're right that its more of a policy question than a legal one. I'm also asking for your best judgement/opinions because I know there's not a concrete answer.

Second, a lot depends on exactly what the policy says and what the school's practices enforcing the policy have been and are.

I'm not sure what the school's history of enforcement has been, but the student code (and student legal service site) states "[knives carried for self defense (instead of cooking) are prohibited weapons]." Stun guns are also prohibited. Although I'm not living in university housing, the student housing regulations go into more detail: "[Knives designed for purposes other than cooking (like switchblades and hunting knives) are prohibited on campus. Students may possess a small knife for education-related purposes]"

Third, how will you explain your reasons for having the knife and what evidence will you be able to put forward to support your claims? Are you regularly using the knife for benign purposes, e. g., to slice a hunk of sausage or piece of fruit for lunch or a snack? A pattern of actually using the knife for "utility" purposes can go a long way toward supporting your position that it isn't a weapon.

I would routinely use the knife for education-related purposes, like opening bags of material, cutting materials, and other similar tasks. I can get by using more purpose-designed implements (scissors etc) but it'd be extremely convenient to have a small knife handy. I'm not an art student, but for the purposes of this discussion I might as well be (I'm trying to keep things reasonably anonymous). I would be carrying it for legitimate education-related reasons (and just to always have a tiny knife handy on my key ring).

And another way to go about this would be to think in terms of the smallest knife that can serve your utility needs, instead of thinking in terms of what's the largest knife you could get away with.

I agree, that's probably not the most appropriate question for me to ask, and I certainly don't intend to carry the largest knife I think I can get away with. I guess I should ask: "In your opinion/judgement, would a <2" knife like the Spyderco Ladybug be an appropriate/legal/acceptable choice (being that it conservatively fulfills my utility needs), or would it be wiser to go with a smaller knife that offers less utility (Spyderco Bee or something extremely minuscule like that)?"

 

[GEM]

I'm not clear - are you hinting at really wanting a weapon? Don't answer that. A Gerber Dime is a neat key chain tool. Or ask the local campus PD about a Leatherman.

If you really want a weapon - that's a different story.

 

[Njal Thorgeirsson]

I'm not clear - are you hinting at really wanting a weapon? Don't answer that. A Gerber Dime is a neat key chain tool. Or ask the local campus PD about a Leatherman.

If you really want a weapon - that's a different story.

I will answer that, haha. No, I do not want a weapon. I want a cutting implement that can comfortably fit on my key ring. I would get a Leatherman squirt, but as I said above, all of the tools are redundant with my blade-less Skeletool, so I'd rather go with something like the Spyderco ladybug which is half the weight, a better knife, and doesn't have tools that I won't need.

 

[fastbolt]

I currently attend a university that prohibits weapons on campus. Long story short, I'd really like to carry some sort of knife solely for utility purposes, specifically something I can throw on my keychain. I thought about getting a Leatherman Squirt, but I always have a Skeletool w/ bit kit (blade removed) available so a simple knife would adequately fill the niche.

University policy states that knives carried for self defense are not allowed, but those used for cooking or university-related activities (art) are. As far as the policy explicitely goes, a sub-two-inch knife on a keychain is in sort of a grey area.

Spyderco makes quite a few models in very tiny sizes, so what do you think the largest model I could safely/legally get away with might be? Ladybug?

Thanks for the input!

Does your state university have its own police dept, or at least a security dept?

Have you asked them this question?

Have you asked someone in the university's administration office for an example of what's permissible for educational-related activities, particularly of the type you have in mind?

FWIW, if your key ring has more than 1 or 2 keys on it, even using something as small as the smallest SAK's can sometimes be awkward, and such awkwardness may present unwanted potential problems in either employing the tools deftly, or even safely. I long ago removed my small types of knives/tools from key rings and key fobs, for these exact reasons. One of the great variety of mini/micro multi-tools, kept separately in a pocket, might be preferable, presuming the university approves of your choice.

 

[Njal Thorgeirsson]

Does your state university have its own police dept, or at least a security dept?

Have you asked them this question?

I believe the university does. I haven't asked them. I sort of assumed they'd tell me "no" just to be safe. I suppose I could vaguely ask them about a small pocketknife/multitool on a keychain.

...using something as small as the smallest SAK's can sometimes be awkward, and such awkwardness may present unwanted potential problems in either employing the tools deftly, or even safely.

Understandable. I'm mainly looking for something on a keychain because 1) it'll probably be small enough to otherwise easily lose and 2) its probably more in line with university policy, and my intended use as a tool. I realize its a compromise.

 

[fastbolt]

Predictable is preventable (to some degree).

I'd ask to get an answer, hopefully more definitive than guessing, unless you'd rather risk learning the hard way.

Violating a school's rules and policy (especially as a student) probably isn't often one of those "better to beg forgiveness than ask for permission" sort of things.

 

[kozak6]

Your situation is unfortunate. One of my geology professors actually recommended the purchase of a Swiss army knife since it's useful for mineral hardness testing as well as for general utility.

He wasn't wrong, as Swiss army knives are fantastic non-weapons. A Victorinox Classic is the perfect keychain knife, and completely affordable.

If you want a Spyderco, I'd suggest going as small as you can solely for practicality reasons. A heavy bulky keychain is obnoxious to carry, and for ordinary EDC purposes, you really don't need much blade length at all.

You know, I bet you could get away with a full size Swiss army knife or multitool as long as you are mindful about using it.

 

[cjwils]

The length of a knife blade that can make knife into a legal weapon varies from state to state. Check your state laws. In some states a folding knife with a blade longer than 3.25 inches (or maybe only longer than 3 in some states) can be considered a weapon.

 

[hso]

18-12-105. Unlawfully carrying a concealed weapon – unlawful possession of weapons

(1) A person commits a class 2 misdemeanor if such person knowingly and unlawfully:

(a) Carries a knife concealed on or about his or her person;

“Knife” means any dagger, dirk, knife, or stiletto with a blade over three and one-half inches in length, or any other dangerous instrument capable of inflicting cutting, stabbing, or tearing wounds, but does not include a hunting or fishing knife carried for sports use. The issue that a knife is a hunting or fishing knife must be raised as an affirmative defense.

A keychain knife will almost always fall below the CO concealed weapon 3.5" blade length limit.

I'd just ask the campus police what they consider acceptable for a pocket knife in a very simple and straightforward manner.

e.g., "What do you recommend for a pocket knife that's ok on campus. " Just that simple. Always keep questions like this to authorities as simple as possible so a simple answer is possible.

 

[Speedo66]

This. Knife, bottle opener, phillips screwdriver, eyeglass screwdriver, and snaps on your key ring and looks like a key. Gone through TSA screening many times. I don't think anyone would consider it an offensive weapon 'cause it'll cut your finger real good if you're not slow and careful. lol

http://www.miniinthebox.com/new-6-i...ping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=bingshopping

 

[jmr40]

It depends. Here in GA anything longer than 2" CAN be considered a weapon and treated exactly the same as a firearm. At least technically, I've never known of it being enforced in that way. With adults, including college students, I've never seen it enforced. I worked in education for 30+ years and still work on college and high school campuses and routinely carry something in the 2.5-3" range and have never had an issue.

If a kid or teen in schools are found with a 2" or shorter blade it is handled as a discipline problem at school since it is not considered a weapon, just an item not allowed at school. If the blade is over 2" it is considered a weapon and LE must get involved. In every case I've been involved with, and it has been a lot, the kid is sent home for 2-3 days. LE conducts an investigation to determine why the knife was at school. If they determine there was criminal intent it can be handed over to the DA and charges can be filed. I've never seen that happen. In every case I'm aware of LE determined that that there was no intent to commit a crime and after the 2-3 day suspension the kid came back to school with no other punishment.

 

[mole]

What I would carry: https://www.amazon.com/Gerber-Lite-...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=EC46FY2YWQDT77W4P8YB

 

[Berger.Fan222]

Been on lots of college campuses and interacted with lots of students. The knife incorporated into a Leatherman multitool has never caused a problem. Carried openly (clips and leather sheaths) and used regularly in lab and project type courses. That would be my first choice.

In dorms with cooking facilities, a student can most likely have a 6-7" fillet knife and a 4" fixed blade Buck knife. Knives like this one https://www.buckknives.com/product/102-buck-woodsman-knife/0102FAM01/ are excellent general purpose tools in the kitchen and can also be great if unanticipated needs arise. But these knives would best be limited from dorm room to kitchen and back and not around campus.

A couple other options are scalpels a box cutters. Scalpels are commonly used in art, architecture, modeling, and biology courses. No one bats an eyelash at them on college campuses, and they have a lot of utility uses also. Likewise, unless you are trying to board a plane or enter a secure area or go through a metal detector, no one will pay much mind to a box cutter, and it will likely do everything you need.

 

[bubba in ca]

I wonder how many horrible crimes I committed carrying a SAF thru decades of schools both as an inmate and an employee! If it complies with state law I would carry a sak and play dumb. Carry a tactical flashlight at night and a metal pen.
Also, a key chain knife of any substance may damage your key or car ignition with time.

 

[Mp7]

Swiss army officers model. Accepted as a non-weapon anywhere outside airports.

 

[Jackal]

Small enough that if you pulled it out in a self defense situation the bad guy would laugh at you.

 

[ugaarguy]

The knife incorporated into a Leatherman multitool has never caused a problem.

That doesn't make it legal.

In dorms with cooking facilities, a student can most likely have a 6-7" fillet knife and a 4" fixed blade Buck knife.

Most likely doesn't cut it with questions of legality which can result in a criminal conviction or the crippling of one's future career opportunities by expulsion from college or university.

Likewise, unless you are trying to board a plane or enter a secure area or go through a metal detector, no one will pay much mind to a box cutter, and it will likely do everything you need.

In Georgia, which has very loose knife laws outside of school campuses, any razor blade, regardless of length, is prohibited on a school campus outside of a handful of specified exemptions. One would have to weigh the risk of enforcement against the benefit of carrying such a knife when there are legal alternatives.

Swiss army officers model. Accepted as a non-weapon anywhere outside airports.

That's not true. The Officer's model, now called the Spartan, has a 2.5" blade. Several jurisdictions have a statutory 2" maximum blade length.

 

[Frank Ettin]

A lot of folks are making various claims that "this" or "that" is okay. The following is just one example:

Been on lots of college campuses and interacted with lots of students. The knife incorporated into a Leatherman multitool has never caused a problem. Carried openly (clips and leather sheaths) and used regularly in lab and project type courses. .....

But I caution everyone that saying it's so doesn't make it so. Unless someone can demonstrate by reference to, and analysis of, applicable law, anyone who acts in reliance on such statements does so at his peril. Unless something is actually, under the law, legal, a multitude may well have gotten away with it until you're the one who gets caught.

Someone might well sincerely believe that something is okay. But folks believe all sorts of things that aren't actually true in real life in the real world. And what someone believes doesn't change what's true in real life in the real world.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

That doesn't make it legal.

Most likely doesn't cut it with questions of legality which can result in a criminal conviction or the crippling of one's future career opportunities by expulsion from college or university.

In Georgia, which has very loose knife laws outside of school campuses, any razor blade, regardless of length, is prohibited on a school campus outside of a handful of specified exemptions. One would have to weigh the risk of enforcement against the benefit of carrying such a knife when there are legal alternatives.

That's not true. The Officer's model, now called the Spartan, has a 2.5" blade. Several jurisdictions have a statutory 2" maximum blade length.

How many examples are there of those strict college campus restrictions being enforced strictly on an otherwise innocent person who wasn't doing something stupid?

If there are examples, then perhaps a scalpel would be a better choice. But I know a number of college students with reasonable blades on GA campuses daily without any issues. For me, at some point, the lack of enforcement becomes like riding a bike on the sidewalk. If it makes sense, the lack of enforcement in given jurisdictions becomes tacit permission. The "letter of the law" should motivate common sense, discretion, and not doing anything stupid. Perhaps I'll suggest they put the Leatherman multitools all the way in their pocket rather than on a belt holder or clipped in the pocket where it is visible. Police on campus have better things to do than harass students with multitools.

 

[Frank Ettin]

How many examples are there of those strict college campus restrictions being enforced strictly on an otherwise innocent person who wasn't doing something stupid?....

How would anyone know? And one's experience limited to one or a few campuses can't be extended to all the college campuses in the country.

The bottom line is that you don't know and you can't possibly know. But you're spouting drivel which, if someone takes you seriously, could get him into trouble where he is actually going to school.

....For me, at some point, the lack of enforcement becomes like riding a bike on the sidewalk....

How nice for you. But that doesn't make it true in real life. Lack of enforcement is just an exercise in prosecutorial discretion and lasts only until someone, for some reason, decides to enforce the rule in some case.

.... If it makes sense, the lack of enforcement in given jurisdictions becomes tacit permission.....

And can you cite legal authority to support that notion? It's not true.

....
Police on campus have better things to do than harass students with multitools.

It will be up to the campus police to decide what they should be doing and how they will be using their resources. That is not your call. And campus police agencies will be making those kinds of decisions without consideration of your opinions in the matter.

 

[Walkalong]

How many examples are there of those strict college campus restrictions being enforced strictly on an otherwise innocent person who wasn't doing something stupid?

.............................................. Police on campus have better things to do than harass students with multitools.

You're missing the point.

I hope readers have gotten the point that just because someone else tells them they might not get hassled, doing it is still illegal and it is still actionable if they do get questioned/searched.

So, do you feel lucky?

 

[Berger.Fan222]

You're missing the point.

I hope readers have gotten the point that just because someone else tells them they might not get hassled, doing it is still illegal and it is still actionable if they do get questioned/searched.

So, do you feel lucky?

Yes, after interacting personally with law enforcement, including a number of campus police officers, I feel pretty lucky to spend so much time on college campuses that have very high levels of safety, because the police are smart and focused on the things that really matter rather than harassing students, faculty, and visitors about 2.5" blades on multitools. I've probably carried a multitool onto college campuses over 2000 times in the past decade. I usually park next to the campus police station and greet any officers I see. These guys are pros, the leather sheath my multitool is in draws their attention for a quick check that it is not a weapon. They return the greeting and we go about our business. The same thing happens whether I am on college campuses in LA, GA, or TX.

I ride my bike on the sidewalks too when it is unsafe to ride in the street. Police see me doing it all the time and have never given me grief. And yes, I had a handgun before I was 21, and I carried a handgun for years before CCW permits were available in my state. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. You really gonna criticize folks for riding a bike on the sidewalk in places where it is unsafe to ride in the street?

Might it be different if I looked like a gang-banger or dope smoking hippie type rather than a geeky engineer? Sure.