On drama, and trauma, and knowing when to walk away

[beatledog7]

Fred, great post. I fully agree that those of us discussing this agree on just about every aspect. We may be describing things differently and we may vary slightly in our way of discussing how we think, but we're all safety nazis in our own way.

For all who decided to pseudo-flame me, please note two things:

First, I said as the final words in my lengthy post that this instructor was wrong, so jabbing at me as if I supported his action is...well, it's just in error.

Second, nowhere in my posts did I advocate muzzling anyone or practicing loose muzzle discipline. But--I'll keep saying it--context does matter. If it didn't, none of us could ever transport, clean, dry-fire, etc. a firearm.

I did and always advocate for a rational approach to safety. I bend over backwards to verify my firearms' loaded or unloaded status before handling them. Yes, sometimes I handle one that's loaded when I'm not preparing to fire it (we all do), just long enough to do what I have to do (holster it, lock it away) and using proper muzzle and trigger discipline. And I fully agree with taliv in that the rules are designed to work together and back each other up. He is spot on in saying that when circumstances (context) dictate breaking one rule, the others must be elevated all the more to avoid catastrophe.

There is simply no 100% safety equation. The best lead instructor with a great team of assistants can't always stop a student from doing something stupid--stupid happens too fast. Further, as Fred pointed out, we're all fallible, which is why it's highly beneficial to have these discussions from time to time.

 

[taliv]

and coopers rules are certainly not the only system that works. there's nothing wrong with the USPSA rules. And even the NRA rule work reasonably well on a square range for people who don't use their guns for self defense. Hot ranges are safe. Cold ranges are safe.

the danger comes when you mix and match rules from different systems, which is what the instructor above did. he safety briefed on the four rules, then he sort of switched to the NRA rules which are generally cavalier about muzzles after you 'clear' the gun. Even though I'm not super comfortable with that, I wouldn't have said anything if he hadn't just said they're following the four rules, which are NOT cavalier about muzzle discipline. The worst thing he did was demonstrate an unsafe practice that his students are likely to imitate.

Loathe as I am to bring up personalities and crap like myers briggs, people do think differently. I'll be the first to admit coopers rules are written in a way that makes absolute sense to some people, but that is almost offensive to others, who perceive a great deal of inconsistency and impossibility because of the way they think, which is not good or bad, just different.

 

[Frank Ettin]

But All guns are always loaded.

This is just plain false; I proved it in my post. Many have an emotional linkage to the statement (or perhaps to Col Cooper) which they can't get past, but any rational discussion of the matter has to concede that not all guns are loaded...

No thanks. I'll stick with the Gunsite Four Rules.

Remember that the Four Rules describe an appropriate mindset for safe gun handling. Those of us who have trained with the Four Rules, and teach with them, understand them as safe handling rules. We know and teach their proper application and context. So --

• If you hand me a gun, don't bother telling me it's not loaded. Because Rule One applies, I won't believe you and will personally verify/clear the gun.
  
  
• If I criticize you for pointing a gun at me, my spouse, my cat, or anyone/anything else I value, don't bother trying to excuse yourself by telling me that it's not loaded.
  
  
• If your gun fires when you didn't intend it to, don't bother trying to explain yourself by saying anything like, "I didn't think it was loaded." You should have understood that under Rule One since it is a gun it is loaded, and you should have conducted yourself accordingly.

People complain about Rule One. They say that they know there are unloaded guns. But the The Four Rules are rules of gun handling and intended to avoid injury. So as far as I'm concerned, when I pick up a gun, there is no such thing as an unloaded gun, and I conduct myself accordingly.

So what do you do if you have a gun in your hand and you don't want it to be loaded? Well you clear it, of course. So that's what you would do if, for example, you wanted to dissemble if for cleaning or enclose/lock it in a case for legal transportation if the law requires that the gun be unloaded. But while the gun is in your hand you still follow Rules Two, Three and Four. And if the gun is out of your control, Rule One again applies -- so you conduct yourself accordingly and personally verify/clear it if you don't want it to be loaded. (And of course anyone one who uses a gun for practical applications, such as hunting or self defense, in any case needs to be able to handle a loaded gun properly.)

Let's see what Jeff Cooper had to say.

• Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, Vol. 6 (1998), No. 2, pg. 8.
  

  ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
  The only exception to this occurs when one has a weapon in his hands and he has personally unloaded it for checking. As soon as he puts it down, Rule 1 applies again.

• Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, vol.9 (2001), No. 6, pg. 29:
  

  ...We think that "treat all guns as if they were loaded" implies with the "as if" qualification a dangerous choice of assumptions...

• Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, vol.11 (2003), No. 13, pg. 64:
  

  ...A major point of issue is Rule 1, "All guns are always loaded." There are people who insist that we cannot use this because it is not precisely true. Some guns are sometimes unloaded. These folks maintain that the rule should read that one should always treat all guns as if they were loaded. The trouble here is the "as if," which leads to the notion that the instrument at hand may actually not be loaded....

Then as As John Schaefer, another student of Col. Cooper, puts it:

All firearms are loaded. - There are no exceptions. Don't pretend that this is true. Know that it is and handle all firearms accordingly. Do not believe it when someone says: "It isn't loaded."

And at that same link, Mr Schaefer quotes John Farnam in part as follows:

...The correct philosophical approach to serious firearms training is the "the condition doesn't matter" method. This was first articulated by Uncle Jeff in his four rules, but all four can all be rolled together in the universal admonition "DON'T DO STUPID THINGS WITH GUNS!" The "hot range" concept logically flows from this philosophical conclusion. Now, we handle all guns correctly, all the time. We don't have to "pretend" they're loaded. They ARE loaded, continuously, and all students need to become accustomed to it....

A short time ago I received the following (quoted in part) in an email from another Gunsite alumnus:

Negligent discharges that result in injury are the result of 1. IGNORANCE, and/or 2. COMPLACENCY and/or 3. HABIT that is inappropriate to changed conditions.

Proper training with the universal rules can only address #1 and #3.

...The great deficiency of much NRA civilian training ... is that muzzle and trigger discipline are not rigorously enforced except when on the range when the line is hot and sometimes not even then. Change the conditions to carrying a loaded gun at all times and adverse results are predictable.

EXAMPLE #1: Trap and skeet shooters often rest muzzles on their toes and point them at each other. They have almost no accidents on the range because guns are unloaded until just before they shoot. ...CHANGE CONDITIONS to a duck blind with loaded guns and the results are predictable....

One thing that Jeff Cooper said ... made a big impression on me. It is seldom repeated. To address complacency he said that every morning when he picks up his gun he says to himself "somewhere today someone is going to have an accident with a gun - not me, not today".

The current Four Rules grew up on a hot range where it is customary to indeed go about with one's gun(s) loaded and where people are trained who will indeed be going around with loaded guns out in the world and about their normal business.

 

[beatledog7]

Trap and skeet shooters ... have almost no accidents on the range because guns are unloaded until just before they shoot [emphasis added].

How does this square with "all guns are always loaded"?

Thanks for helping me prove my point. A gun with an open action that has been properly verified unloaded cannot fire. Those guns are unloaded, therefore the statement (it isn't phrased as a rule) "All guns are always loaded" is false.

I wholeheartedly believe in muzzle and trigger discipline, and I absolutely wouldn't believe a gun someone handed to me is unloaded either. But also I know, as do we all, that a gun with an open action and no round in the chamber cannot fire. That's not splitting hairs. It's a fact.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Trap and skeet shooters ... have almost no accidents on the range because guns are unloaded until just before they shoot [emphasis added].

How does this square with "all guns are always loaded"?

Thanks for helping me prove my point. A gun with an open action that has been properly verified unloaded cannot fire. ...

Actually, as a life member of the Amateur Trapshooting Association and having shot competitive trap for a bunch of years, including regularly at our State Championships and one year at the Grand American, I have to say that I'm embarrassed by the poor gun handling of some of my fellow trapshooters. Of course the Gunsite Four Rules aren't part of their culture, but nonetheless, I find it sad that some of them seem to have adopted standard practices inconsistent with those Rules of gun handling.

In fact, I recall an unintended discharge at my gun club in which the errant party wound up firing his thought to be unload, break action trap gun and spraying the clubhouse with number 7.5 shot. Fortunately, no one was standing at the service window of the clubhouse. If someone had been there, he would have been injured.

The shooter was a very competent, experienced, 27 yard handicap, registered competitive shooter. But he had not, apparently, been sufficiently inculcated into the mindset that all guns are always loaded, and thus forgot himself.

Another time, another experienced, competitive shooter had finished a round and put his gun away in the rack near the trap field he was shooting on. Sometime later, he went to collect his gun to put it away. When he opened the action he was surprised to find a live shell.

As I tried to point out, Rule One is less about the actual condition of the gun than it is about mindset. The goal is to avoid unintended discharges. If you really know that all guns are always loaded and conduct yourself accordingly, as discussed in my post, above, the chances of an unintended discharge can become vanishingly small; and that's a good thing.

As I mentioned, the Gunsite Four Rules were conceived to promote gun handling safety on a hot range. If one carries a gun for protection, or keeps a loaded gun for protection at home, in his office or in his car, he is effectively on a hot range. A disciplined approach to gun handling safety suitable for a hot range would certainly do for a cold range. And if someone on a cold range forgets, he has turned the cold range into a hot range.

 

[RTR_RTR]

The only person I'll ever point a muzzle toward is myself, after I've checked it (and rechecked, and rechecked and...), w/the slide locked back, and only so long as the gun stays in my hand. If it gets set down, it gets checked again when it gets picked back up.

I can't think of ANY reason that would justify pointing a muzzle toward another person

 

[parsimonious_instead]

When asking someone to verify whether a firearm is loaded or unloaded, I ask them "what is the condition of this gun?" rather than "is it unloaded?"
My rationale is that people are habituated to give quick yes/no answers to simple questions.
My change in verbiage should (in theory) make the person verifying the gun's status think a bit longer and really check it out.
Agree/disagree?

 

[beatledog7]

If you really know that all guns are always loaded and conduct yourself accordingly...

... you will never clean, dry fire, transport or conduct any other administrative activity with a firearm, because to you they are always loaded. There has to be an "unless" or an "until" in the rule if the rule is to apply to any context other than a hot range. I agree that any place where there is a loaded gun is effectively a hot range and should be treated as such.

When asking someone to verify whether a firearm is loaded or unloaded, I ask them "what is the condition of this gun?" rather than "is it unloaded?"

I like that approach; it makes the person actually think about the reality that drives the answer.

I read earlier this morning on another forum an account of a student asking an instructor if the pistol he was using to demonstrate in class was loaded. The reported reply: "All guns are always loaded." The poster intended this to show how dedicated this instructor was to the rule and why we should all be so dedicated. But my next question to that instructor would have been, "And how do you justify having a loaded firearm in this classroom?" What do you think would be his response to that? He would have to either 1) admit it was not loaded, thus proving Cooper's Rule #1 is false, or 2) admit to having major screwed up.

I don't know if the account is true, but it makes a good point about blind worship of Cooper's Rule #1.

I can't think of ANY reason that would justify pointing a muzzle toward another person

I never advocated purposely muzzling anybody.

But let's be realistic; the only way any of us will never muzzle anyone is by never handling a firearm. No matter who one is, how much training one has had and from whom, or how much experience one can boast, or how sanctimoniously one proclaims that he never has and never will violate muzzle control, he has and will again. Sometimes it simply cannot be avoided. That's why the "never point" rule, no matter how it's stated, is accompanied by the "finger off the trigger" rule. The key is to know when you're doing it and why you had no choice and to follow the trigger rule all the more.

Who's gonna be next to inadvertently muzzle someone? The guy who thinks he's so good that he will never muzzle anyone.

 

[Frank Ettin]

When asking someone to verify whether a firearm is loaded or unloaded, I ask them "what is the condition of this gun?" rather than "is it unloaded?"

...Agree/disagree?

I'm afraid I disagree. I wouldn't even ask if the gun is loaded.

As far as I'm concerned, all guns are always loaded. Someone's answer to a the question of whether the gun is loaded or what the gun's condition is would be irrelevant to me. As far as I'm concerned the gun is loaded and I will handle it accordingly and personally verify its condition.

If you really know that all guns are always loaded and conduct yourself accordingly...

... you will never clean, dry fire, transport or conduct any other administrative activity with a firearm, because to you they are always loaded. There has to be an "unless" or an "until" in the rule if the rule is to apply to any context other than a hot range....

You haven't been paying attention.

As I wrote in post 28:

...So what do you do if you have a gun in your hand and you don't want it to be loaded? Well you clear it, of course. So that's what you would do if, for example, you wanted to dissemble if for cleaning or enclose/lock it in a case for legal transportation if the law requires that the gun be unloaded. But while the gun is in your hand you still follow Rules Two, Three and Four. And if the gun is out of your control, Rule One again applies -- so you conduct yourself accordingly and personally verify/clear it if you don't want it to be loaded. (And of course anyone one who uses a gun for practical applications, such as hunting or self defense, in any case needs to be able to handle a loaded gun properly.)...

...it makes a good point about blind worship of Cooper's Rule #1....

You might look at it as "blind worship", but the fact is that the Gunsite Four Rules have proven themselves. They've been around and in use a long time in many places by many instructors.

Every so often someone comes along to quibble about them, most usually with Rule One; but nothing ever seems to catch on.

 

[bikerdoc]

As far as I'm concerned the gun is loaded and I will handle it accordingly and personally verify its condition.

It is just that simple.

 

[beatledog7]

Frank, you keep insisting that "all guns are always loaded" then describing situations in which a gun isn't loaded.

"Always" mean exactly that--always. If you can describe a situation where a gun is in clear, plain, indisputable fact not loaded--and we all can--then Rule 1 as quoted is false. How much more plainly can that be stated?

As far as I'm concerned the gun is loaded and I will handle it accordingly and personally verify its condition.

Precisely! I don't dispute the wisdom of treating all guns as loaded until I, myself, by my own deliberate action and careful observation, prove otherwise; in fact, I fully support it and practice that scrupulously. I would expect nothing less from a student, an instructor, a range buddy, or any person handling a firearm. But having "personally verif[ied] its condition," I know it's unloaded and that I can safely treat it as such as long as it's in my direct control.

Once you've "personally verif[ied] its condition," do you still treat it as loaded? No, you don't. Not each and every time. Please do not try to say you do unless you're also willing to say you don't clean, transport, dry fire, etc. any of your guns at any time. How you treat a gun after you've personally cleared it is context dependent.

I do not accept as gospel a statement that is clearly false, no matter who said it. Any statement containing "always" is false as long as we have to add any sort of qualifying or clarifying words to make it true or an example can be found to the contrary. Here, we have done both.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Frank, you keep insisting that "all guns are always loaded" then describing situations in which a gun isn't loaded...

No, I'm describing how the Gunsite Four Rules are useful and apply to promote safe gun handling.

It's a matter of attitude and habit.

 

[beatledog7]

Describing exceptions is exactly what you've been doing, among other things. Anyone reading this thread can see that.

It's a matter of attitude and habit.

Agreed. That said, attitude and habit are individual behavioral traits, not mantras. Rules must be stated in such a way that one can know when he is in compliance, that his behaviors are correct.

Shooters can comply with Cooper's rules 2-4 and know that they're doing so. They cannot, however, comply with the declaration "All guns are always loaded." Nobody can comply with a declaration. New shooters are confused by it. They ask for clarification. They may well think that since "All guns are always loaded," to have one that's not loaded and know that it's not loaded is somehow a violation. Yet they are told to unload and show clear.

The Indiana Gun Owners' Forum post I cited spells this it very succinctly and profoundly. Yet nobody has bothered to or been brave enough to address it: After stating that guns are always loaded, how would that instructor answer the question, "Why do you have a loaded firearm in this classroom?

A "rule" should not need clarification or explanation. Across the board, those who are disputing my position are describing application of the rule and exceptions to the rule. My question remains, how can "always" have exceptions.

 

[taliv]

Beatle what you're advocating Is less safe than what anyone else is saying. You've ignored others objections to focus on semantics that make you appear more concerned with being "right" on the Internet than being safe in the everyday use of firearms.

Once you've "personally verif[ied] its condition," do you still treat it as loaded? No, you don't. Not each and every time. Please do not try to say you do unless you're also willing to say you don't clean, transport, dry fire, etc. any of your guns at any time. How you treat a gun after you've personally cleared it is context dependent.

I absolutely continue to treat guns as loaded even after I have cleared them. Your statement makes no sense.

You see I transport loaded guns all the time. Heck I carry one on my hip.
I dry fire safely. I LIVE FIRE safely so why would dry firing be any less safe. I don't abandon the four rules when I dry fire. I dont clean often but when I do the gun is disassembled into pieces. When the barrel isn't connected to the rest of the gun yes I stop treating it like its loaded.

 

[taliv]

And the beauty of the four rules is their simplicity. Children can memorize and follow them. Your chief complaint seems to be the lack of a 30 volume set of rules covering what to do in every possible situation.

None of the rest of us want (or need) our gun safety rules to look like the us tax code. Just like frank said, the important part is the mindset.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Agreed. That said, attitude and habit are individual behavioral traits, not mantras. Rules must be stated in such a way that one can know when he is in compliance, that his behaviors are correct.

Shooters can comply with Cooper's rules 2-4 and know that they're doing so. They cannot, however, comply with the declaration "All guns are always loaded." Nobody can comply with a declaration. New shooters are confused by it. They ask for clarification...

The bottom line is that you don't get it and probably never will. As Taliv wrote in post 27:

...I'll be the first to admit coopers rules are written in a way that makes absolute sense to some people, but that is almost offensive to others, who perceive a great deal of inconsistency and impossibility because of the way they think, which is not good or bad, just different.

Over the years, I've helped hundreds of folks start off shooting, teaching beginners wingshooting, helping coach a youth trapshooting group and helping teach Basic Handgun and Personal Protection classes. The Gunsite Four Rules have consistently helped lay a foundation for safe gun handling attitudes and habits.

The Gunsite Four Rules have been the cornerstone of the safety mindset for thousands of students at Gunsite over the years. They have been embraced by top instructors. See again (in post 28) what John Farnmam said:

And at that same link, Mr Schaefer quotes John Farnam in part as follows:

...The correct philosophical approach to serious firearms training is the "the condition doesn't matter" method. This was first articulated by Uncle Jeff in his four rules, but all four can all be rolled together in the universal admonition "DON'T DO STUPID THINGS WITH GUNS!" The "hot range" concept logically flows from this philosophical conclusion. Now, we handle all guns correctly, all the time. We don't have to "pretend" they're loaded. They ARE loaded, continuously, and all students need to become accustomed to it....

You keep telling us that the Rule One is wrong and doesn't work. Yet it has been ubiquitous and working well for perhaps forty plus years. Perhaps you should be asking why. Real life experience seems to indicate that it is not as flawed as you contend. Maybe the disconnect is simply that you can't understand why it does indeed work.

In any case, considering that many people wind up getting shot by a gun that someone thought was unloaded, it makes sense, to me at least, that the first step in avoiding that sort of unhappy event is the recognition that all guns are always loaded.

 

[beatledog7]

Frank, I most certainly do get it.

Please note what I've already stated:

I don't dispute the wisdom of treating all guns as loaded until I, myself, by my own deliberate action and careful observation, prove otherwise; in fact, I fully support it and practice that scrupulously. I would expect nothing less from a student, an instructor, a range buddy, or any person handling a firearm. But having "personally verif[ied] its condition," I know it's unloaded and that I can safely treat it as such as long as it's in my direct control.

Even after that, of course, Rules 2-4 still apply.

My application of Cooper's Rule 1 makes sense. I'm for a simple, cogent restatement of the rule with which a shooter can actually comply. It can accomplish this without weakening Cooper's wise admonishment (though I'm sure you guys will once again be unable to see it that way): "Treat every gun you touch as loaded until you prove that it is not loaded." That in no way gives license to then ignore the other three rules, and for that reason it is no less safe than and much more usable and clear than the original phrasing. All it does is allow for administrative handling without technically breaking the so-called rule.

I never said I wanted an encyclopedia of gun safety, taliv, nor anything of the sort.

I advocate giving gun handlers the tools to understand and adapt to the context in which they find themselves. Pardon me for having some faith in shooters' ability to grasp this. The Cooper approach to which you guys cling so absolutely assumes in order to be safe shooters must learn to chant a Krishna-like mantra and treat every situation the same. I get why you think so; I just disagree.

This hasn't been at all about winning a word battle with people I've never met, but for whom, I'll add in complete honesty, I have much respect. It's about conveying what I consider a vitally important set of points: Cooper's Rule 1 is poorly worded to the extent of being at best false and at worst impossible to carry out in the real world of gun ownership. Nobody in this thread has yet proven those points wrong.

I handle firearms as safely as anyone else, more safely than most, and I have said nothing that would indicate otherwise. The "objections" you say I'm ignoring are impractical in the real world. And I'm not ignoring them; I'm disputing them. It is my assertions that are being ignored, essentially because while sensible and rational they have the unfortunate quality of not squaring with "Uncle" Cooper.

And I'm done.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...My application of Cooper's Rule 1 makes sense. I'm for a simple, cogent restatement of the rule with which a shooter can actually comply. It can accomplish this without weakening Cooper's wise admonishment (though I'm sure you guys will once again be unable to see it that way): "Treat every gun you touch as loaded until you prove that it is not loaded."...

No I don't see it that way. And as Col. Cooper himself put it (see post 28 again):

Let's see what Jeff Cooper had to say.

• ...
  
  
• Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, vol.9 (2001), No. 6, pg. 29:
  

  ...We think that "treat all guns as if they were loaded" implies with the "as if" qualification a dangerous choice of assumptions...

  
  
• Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, vol.11 (2003), No. 13, pg. 64:
  

  ...A major point of issue is Rule 1, "All guns are always loaded." There are people who insist that we cannot use this because it is not precisely true. Some guns are sometimes unloaded. These folks maintain that the rule should read that one should always treat all guns as if they were loaded. The trouble here is the "as if," which leads to the notion that the instrument at hand may actually not be loaded....

...Cooper's Rule 1 is poorly worded to the extent of being at best false and at worst impossible to carry out in the real world of gun ownership. Nobody in this thread has yet proven those points wrong...

Except if it's so "wrong" why has it been around and so effectively used for so long. Yes, not everyone understands or accepts it. But enough people have understood it and accepted it, and continue to understand and accept it, that it continues to be in use at some of the top schools and with some of the top instructors. Why?

...The Cooper approach to which you guys cling so absolutely assumes in order to be safe shooters must learn to chant a Krishna-like mantra and treat every situation the same...

And in part that's the idea and why it is so effective an approach. It is a mantra, a conditioned reflex, a habit, a psychological trigger.

I can say that I have internalized Rule 1 to the point that every time I touch a gun I think "this gun is loaded." That blocks doing anything dumb, like picking it up and pulling the trigger the way my unfortunate trapshooting friend did. Now it doesn't stop me from handling the gun, because I know how to handle a loaded gun; and I deal with it as I need to to do whatever I need to do.

That is the point -- to inculcate the correct mindset laying a strong foundation for good safety habits.

 

[RTR_RTR]

I never advocated purposely muzzling anybody.

But let's be realistic; the only way any of us will never muzzle anyone is by never handling a firearm. No matter who one is, how much training one has had and from whom, or how much experience one can boast, or how sanctimoniously one proclaims that he never has and never will violate muzzle control, he has and will again. Sometimes it simply cannot be avoided. That's why the "never point" rule, no matter how it's stated, is accompanied by the "finger off the trigger" rule. The key is to know when you're doing it and why you had no choice and to follow the trigger rule all the more.

Who's gonna be next to inadvertently muzzle someone? The guy who thinks he's so good that he will never muzzle anyone.

My post wasn't directed at you, just the thread in general. That said, maintaining a philosophy of NEVER intentionally muzzling someone doesn't have much anything to do with your reply as far as I can tell

 

[taliv]

"Treat every gun you touch as loaded until you prove that it is not loaded."

again, seriously, i'm not opposed to rewording it. i'm opposed to the change in meaning you propose. namely, i can't think of a circumstance where I would STOP treating the gun like it's loaded, no matter whether i had just cleared it or not because i could have made a mistake or somebody watching might think i was unsafe if they didn't see me clear the gun

 

[Fred Fuller]

I never had an opportunity to meet Cooper in person, but I did correspond with him off and on for a few years in the days before the Internet (the old man's telling his age again) and while long distance telephone calls were still considered expensive. My wife had a more extensive correspondence with Cooper than I, before she and I met and married.

I can say based on that and through extensive reading of the large body of writing he left behind that Cooper was quite fond of the English language, used it carefully, and said precisely what he meant to say.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Cooper and Uncle Sam rules are complementary and that is what I follow.

The instructor made a error IMO and the student overreacted.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I just came across the following two posts over at TFL which quote from posts (and provide links to those posts) that illustrate why, if you want to avoid unintentional discharges, knowing that all guns are always loaded is a good thing, and thinking the a gun is unloaded is a bad thing:

This post:

...I have on my computer a huge file of mishaps with firearms, reported on TFL, THR, and other firearms forums by people who really ought to have known better.

In the vast majority of those cases, no real harm resulted, although a few people have lost fingers, hand function, or significant amounts of blood because they shot themselves.

Hmmmm, let me provide a few links:

"After dropping the magazine I racked the slide to empty the chamber. I THOUGHT the round fell down the mag well and onto the floor. I was wrong." http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114982

"There was no mag in the Kahr so I rack the slide, look in the chamber, slide forward, hammer down, BOOM!! Guess I didn't look close enough." http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=114287 post #42

This one is an accident that never happened, thanks to good safety habits. A shopper was looking at a revolver, a pinned and recessed S&W Model 66, in a pawn shop. "After drooling over it, I asked if I could dry fire it. The owner said, without any hesitation, 'Of course.' ... When I swung open that cylinder to look if it was unloaded, I had six live rounds staring back at me! You can usually tell when a revolver is loaded by looking at it from the side, but these buggers where well hidden. I've never handled a recessed revolver until today, but I've handled so many guns at gun stores and pawn shops (never once was one loaded) that I didn't give it a moments thought. I was less than 2 seconds away from putting a .357 caliber hole in that man's display case." http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=279035

"At home today, had the Beretta 21A out to check the trigger.... I tipped the barrel up and removed the cartridge, laid the cartridge off to the side. I left the magazine in the gun. Went back and forth trying to get a subjective feel for the trigger a few times, made some notes. I tipped the barrel up and put the cartridge back in the chamber. So I made some notes and then forgot that I loaded the gun...I picked up the gun, cocked it, and pulled the trigger." http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=165697

"I wanted to unload the gun to put it in the safe. Took the magazine out and racked the slide to extract the last round. I tried to dry fire it to release the hammer. Of course the stupid magazine safety didn't let me do that, so I put the magazine back in. I have no idea why I racked the slide again, but I did. I suppose it was a reflex action after putting a magazine in the pistol. I pulled the trigger and fired a round into a bench and the blade of nice hunting/camping hatchet I had since I was 10 years old." http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=340242 post #40

"I went into the bedroom to clear my .380 nightstand gun. I have shot IPSC and other competitions for years so clearing is second nature I thought. I racked the slide, ejected the round, looked down the chamber and saw it was empty, dropped the slide, then dropped the mag. Yep, I should have dropped the mag first. Well, I pointed in a safe direction (the bed) and dropped the hammer, Bamm! This wouldn't have been too bad except it was a water bed upstairs. I think it wont be bad because the .380 isnt that powerfull and with the quilt, sheets etc it will never make it though the water. WRONG! It went through all including the bed liner, on though the wood, and into the built in drawers. What a mess, had to bail out the bed, had a drawer full of water and cloths etc. Kind of funny now, but it sure wasnt then. It took hours of cleaning up." http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191417&page=3 post #55

My point remains. After you unload it, after you check that it's unloaded -- STILL treat it with cautious respect, STILL watch your muzzle direction, and STILL refuse to put your finger on the trigger unless and until you have chosen a target with a backstop. You do this because you are human, and make mistakes. You don't put all your eggs in the "but I checked it!" basket. You treat the firearm with respect, even if you "know" it's unloaded.

The life you save could be your own. Or your child's. Or your wife's...

And this post:

More ...

"Dropped the mag, racked the slide and let it go home. Unloaded now, right? Pointed it at the far wall of the living room and pulled the trigger. KABOOM! ... What I failed to do was physically check the chamber. The gun had always been a jam-o-matic, a round stuck in the chamber and a weak extractor left it there." http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=114287 post #30

"Was doing some trigger work on a revolver and wanted to see how the result compared to another identical revolver I had worked on earlier. I retrieved it and unloaded it by opening the cylinder and letting the rounds drop out. One stuck in the cylinder and didn't fall out. I didn't check carefully enough to see it. Shot the dining room table and phone book and permanently damaged my hearing." http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168305 post #13

"I gravity dumped the rounds from a revolver (without using the ejector) and pocketed the rounds without counting them and proceeded to dry fire. Needless to say I found out to my surprise a round had stuck in the cylinder." http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=165697 post #37

"I just pulled the trigger on my Sig Sauer P239. I dropped the magazine, but I didn't check the chamber. I know better, you know better, but nevertheless, it happened. I'm so ashamed." http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=340242

"I had finished cleaning and reassembling my pistol, performed a function check and loaded the pistol. Dropped my mag to insert my 'Barney Round' to top off the mag and got called over to settle an argument over a football game. We talked for a while and I went back to my pistol, the mag is on the table and the gun is sitting next to it assembled ... being the fool my darling wife married I picked up the pistol and pulled the trigger as if I were performing a function check. BANG!!!" http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56979 post #8

"There were 7 of us in the room. We were all chatting and cleaning guns, and I wasn't paying too much attention to what I was doing. BIG MISTAKE... I reassembled my pistol, locked the slide back, and while distracted, inserted an 'empty' magazine (which was of course loaded with 115 gr. black talons) I thumbed the slide release and let it fly forward. Then I made my fateful mistake. Instead of using the drop hammer safety, I squeezed the trigger and let the hammer drop while the barrel was pressed firmly into the palm/wrist of my (then dominant) right hand." http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93660 post # 24

"My girlfriend was watching TV. Some mindless show about potential playboy bunnies. I had found the old Remington manual because I wanted to see if it could be safely dry-fired without damaging my firing-pin. I stood up and picked up the 870. I was not thinking. No, I was not under the influence of anything. I carelessly shouldered the shotgun, and without thinking pulled the trigger and put buckshot through my TV, through the wall behind it. Glass everywhere. The smoke alarms went off. Nobody thank God, got hurt. My GF is okay, surprisingly calm after all the chaos. After the initial shock and requisite clean-up, we both sat down and looked at each other. I cried like a baby. I cried so much it hurt to breathe. The thoughts of worse outcomes kept flashing through my head....I could've seriously injured or killed my best friend, I could've hurt or killed myself. I coulda damaged my home even more. Luckily the buckshot missed the piping behind the wall, but there was ricocheted glass/plastic/lead everywhere. The TV can be replaced, the plaster can be patched, but I will never again forget to triple-check." http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112882

"I was at home cleaning my revolver.... After disassembling and cleaning my gun, I aimed the weapon down to my side and function fired before loading the cylinder. ... Then the doorbell rang whereby I received a package. I returned to my room and recalled that all that was remaining was to function fire the gun, load it and holster it. Yes, I completely forgot that I already did that step. Fortunately, the 357 round missed my right foot by a few inches as it penetrated the wooden sub-floor. I became quite sick afterwards, as I couldn’t believe what I did. I shared my experience with my partner as he then admitted to a similar account. In his case, he too cleaned his weapon and became distracted during the final step. Except; in his case, he took aim on a goldfish in his 150-gallon aquarium!" http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbull...iscussions/83167-accidental-discharges-2.html post #36...

These unintended discharges, with injuries in some cases, were the result of people pulling the triggers on guns they thought were unloaded. I'm sure that none of these people would have pulled those triggers if the had known that the guns were loaded. But Rule 1 tells us that all guns are always loaded.

 

[taliv]

i think we've said most of what their is to say here. beetledog and i are continuing a discussion in PMs. thanks

 

[Fred Fuller]

I think it's been a useful discussion all the while. We always manage to get into the 'how can this be' reaction to Rule One whenever it comes up - it's as reliable a topic for that as any make/model or caliber debate.

Once again, different people are going to have different levels of sensitivity to being muzzled. Personally the only time I don't worry about it at some level is when the barrel in question is detached from the firearm, less so when a firearm is sitting with magazine detached (if there is a separate magazine), action open, chamber flag in place and no human hands upon it, and so on down the scale. But that's just me.

It's when someone is HANDLING a firearm that my ears go up...

There are two kinds of shooters, as far as I can tell after a half century of messing about with firearms - those who HAVE had an unintended discharge, and those who are going to.

I've had more than one. The 1911 with a worn sear that decided to play Thompson when I dropped the slide. A cheap little striker fired Sterling .22 that would do the same thing (until I threw its disassembled parts into a nearby lake, the .45 I could fix). A single action .22 Ruger Bearcat that fired a round with the cylinder out of alignment when the hammer slipped as I was lowering it after loading. A friends brand new out of the box Marlin 336 we were sighting in, that fired the first round we loaded into the magazine as the lever was being closed, feeding it into the chamber and locking the bolt. It was in my hands when that happened, my finger was outside the trigger guard and the muzzle was pointed in a safe direction - it was all I could do not to drop the rifle on the ground out of reflex.

In all cases described above the guns involved were pointed in safe directions. No one was injured (surprised, oh yes), no property was damaged.

Thing is, it ISN'T ever just a Rule One question. All four work together. If all four rules are carefully observed, it's almost impossible to injure someone or damage property unintentionally with a firearm. But note - I said ALMOST impossible...