On H&K Fans, Detractors, and Myth of "wannabe mentality"

[Shake]

I got in a little late on this thread , but since the thread was locked, I'll add my dollars worth here. . .

H&Ks don't get talked about a lot on this board because certain posters, who shall go unamed (as if they anyone doesn't know who they are), get their panties in a bunch over the USP for various reasons.

Essentially, if you buy a USP, by default you become an operator/spec ops wannabe" who can't keep his mouth shut about how great the firearm is (all the while foisting his respective opinion about which firearm is the best off on all who read the garbage). Oh, and purchasing a USP automatically gets you a job at the local mall as a security guard. Of course all this is served up with a healthy dose of so that if anyone calls them out, they can refer to the s and claim to have been simply yanking the chain of H&K owners.

What's funny is that if you go back and browse the thread you'll find that the majority of complaints about H&Ks revolve around their prices, not quality or lack thereof of the product. Of the complaints given in the numerous responses to the thread, price was the issue most whined about. i.e. :

Yes, it is just 1911 owners mocking a $700 plastic pistol that doesn't add anything but hype to the market.

The USP is for the tactical Walter Mittys who are keen to overpay for something neither unique or special.

Best I can figure is that snob appeal plays a part in the decision to spend $700 or so on a plastic frame gun.

If we all simply bought firearms based on cost to benefit ratio, SIG, GLOCK, Walther, H&K, and numerous other gunmakers would cease to exist. Can't a Ruger or a CZ do everything a 1911, GLOCK, SIG, etc. can do for much less money? So, my question to the price whiners is why are you all not shooting exclusively CZs, Rugers, Hi Points, Makarovs, etc.?? The price difference between a Ruger and a GLOCK is pretty much identical to the price difference between a GLOCK and an H&K.

Some of the more outspoken (one of which, by the way, is exceedingly more "into" the whole tactical scene than I am as I understand roughly 10% of the language he used in his "story"-has he really thought THAT much about being an "operator"????) detractors will have us believe that the mere existence of a web site revolving around H&K firearms is proof of the "wannabe" mentality. Never mind the fact that the favorite weapon of many of these detractors has more fan websites than probably any type of firearm on the web.

The reality is that 90% of this "wannabe" mentality is fabricated by internet posters who have an axe to grind (the other ten percent likely exists in the ranks of any other firearm on the shelf). Proof being that they rarely focus on perceived faults of the firearm, choosing to focus instead on the price and the supposed lack of intelect of those who would pay more for a firearm that has the same end result as a lower priced firearm (never mind the fact that their firearms cost more than many that would give them identical end results).

I have to question anyone's judgement that would label an entire group of firearm owners based on their choice brand/model of firearm simply because of the rabid few (which group exists in any fan forum-H&K's don't have a corner on the market there as they would have you believe). The USP series offers options that are not found in any other modern semi-auto plastic (see I can say it) framed pistol. If you want to whine about H&Ks, whine about the guns, not their owners.

(stay with me moderators, I'm including my dose of autoloader talk). . .

I, for one, selected the USP as my first handgun without knowing much about it at all. It fit my hand better than anything out there, I could carry it cocked and locked, it had a decocker, it has (for me) the fastest mag release of any autoloader without causing me to reposition, I shoot them better than any of my other handguns (all brands and models), mine have been as reliable as anything I've fired. A reason to spend a little more money? For me it is. I had no knowledge of which "spec ops" unit if any uses them.

Ironically, 1911 loyalists (Not picking on 1911s as I own them, just making a point) will drop references to the 1911s use in battle by the armed forces (and its superiority over the M9-another story) left and right, then snicker at an SIG/H&K fan's interest in who is using the SIG/H&K.

Bottom line is why cry and whine about who buys what if you are happy with what you use? Beats me. I like H&Ks, I buy them, I shoot them, I carry them. . . you like something else, big freaking deal. Not everyone can be happy with a 1911/SIG/GOCK/CZ/Ruger etc. It is all about choice. I'm certainly grateful we don't all have to conform to some approved "standard". I wouldn't be here if we did.

Dohhhhhhh!!! I guess I've outed myself as an H&K lover. So, come at me with all the "see, you prove my point" "deep down inside you know you want to be a SEAL". I'll get angry, I promise.

Oh, and I almost forgot. . . there are certain people who won't be able to help themselves responding to this thread. . . these are for you:

YMMV IMHO and all that. . .

Shake

 

[gudel]

it seems that the only people who talk about HK is the one who do not have HK. they whine and complain about the price.

it's my money.

 

[CZ-75]

The USP series offers options that are not found in any other modern semi-auto plastic (see I can say it) framed pistol.

I'll bite and say that I stand by my belief that $700 is too much to pay for plastic unless it offers superior performance (Expert). I don't think HK can claim to be a hands down winner over Glock, though.

Safety and decocker are nice, but not worth another $150-200. The grip texturing that resembles a bastard file is also underwhelming.

And yes, I think HK attracts more tactical "poseurs" than other brands, though I might say that each type of pistol has its own niche of poseurs. HK's are operator wannabes, Glock's are LEO wannabes, SIG probably splits the difference in those two groups, and 1911's have the American Macho no-plastic sissy pistol John Moses Browning by God John Wayne used one in "Sands of Iwo Jima" good enough for Uncle Sam crowd.



to you too

 

[CZ-75]

they whine and complain about the price.

Right.

I have around 10 handguns (or more), averaging $500, which includes a few milsurps (= cheaper). How much do you think I can afford to spend?

$700? I think so.

It's about value.

 

[gudel]

i just proved myself right. oh well.

 

[agentwithrow]

yup proven right. Like said above, "its my money" well it is my money and I think the $ I spent on my USP Expert is the best money I've spent on a firearm period.

 

[New_comer]

My USP9F works for me...


Heavy DA trigger, unusual mag release (the fastest there is, period! ), chunkiness, rough grip, twin recoil spring, 3-dot sights, and all


And there's nothing anybody here can do to change my mind about it!!!

(Quoting myself from the closed thread)


Add: and I paid $525 for it NIB three years ago.


Will I buy another for $700+? You betcha!!!

 

[KMKeller]

It's an interesting study. Earlier this month I started a thread asking people to help me select from three semi-custom 1911s. A Les Baer at $1900, an Ed Brown at about $2900 and a Wilson at around $3500. A few people discussed price and suggested going full custom for $2000-$3000. Another poster popped on and suggested forgoing one of the above for a springfield loaded, which starts about $839 and people came out of the woodwork telling him that it was garbage made with junk parts. One mocked him and said if cost were such a concern, that maybe he should stick with Charles Daly's. Another suggested a used Auto-Ordnance and a can of rustoleum.

Next up, someone suggested that I spend $2700 to a particular gunsmith and when I said that I would never buy anything from that particular smith, well, let's just say that popularity waned from that point.

The point of that thread? The only true snobs on this board are the custom 1911 crowd that believe like cz-75 stated so aptly above, "1911's have the American Macho no-plastic sissy pistol John Moses Browning by God John Wayne used one in "Sands of Iwo Jima" good enough for Uncle Sam crowd". And nothing could be more subjective to them than price and value. A $700 gun with a poly frame that fuctions perfectly and flawlessly is too expensive, but they don't balk a second at paying $2000 or more for a 1911, because it's a 1911, to get one that functions as well. And god forbid someone should mention an $800+ 1911 in the same breath, blasphemy!

And don't even think about discussing their pet gunsmiths! Even the crooked, criminal ones!

 

[Sean Smith]

People made varied suggestions, and you were a jerk about it.

And don't even think about discussing their pet gunsmiths! Even the crooked, criminal ones!

And if you were ever able to back up this sort of statement... or had the guts to do so... you might have something. Oops.

(Edited for niceness )

 

[KMKeller]

ROFLMAO Sean, you make my point for me.

People made varied suggestions, and you were a jerk about it.

In the opening statement of the thread, I specifically asked people not to throw out custom guns as an option. They (you included) made suggestions outside the scope of the thread. So my asking people to stay within scope was being a jerk? You have an odd perspective.

And if you were ever able to back up this sort of statement... or had the guts to do so... you might have something. Oops

Why should I tread a path so very well trodden before?

 

[Erich]

Guys?

Everybody take a deep breath - we're all friends here.

 

[TarpleyG]

but they don't balk a second at paying $2000 or more for a 1911, because it's a 1911, to get one that functions as well.

I bought a Norinco about 6 months ago from a friend for $300. A fairly good deal as Norincos go. I replaced the ignition components with a matched set from a Kimber, cut the frame for an Ed Brown beavertail, installed a new extractor and tuned it, and put on some new grips. I have about another $100 invested. So, for $400 I have a completely reliable 1911 that shoots tight groups and never fails. Good enough for me.

GT

 

[KMKeller]

TarpleyG - That's what makes 1911s fun. Did you do the smithing yourself?

 

[KMKeller]

CZ-75 - how do you hold that the Expert offers superior performance?

 

[harrydog]

Quote:
"And if you were ever able to back up this sort of statement... or had the guts to do so... you might have something. Oops."


This has been discussed in great detail on another forum. I tend to believe Larry Vickers.

 

[Shake]

CZ-75,

That's just it. . .

It's about value.

It ISN'T about value for me. It is about finding the firearm that best fits my needs and does what I need it to do. If I have to pay $700 (which I would never pay-where the hell do you guys shop?) for that firearm, I'll pay it.

A saftey/decocker might not be a deciding factor for you, but it is for many. If that is what I want, that is what I want. I'm not going to conform my needs to the price structure of varying handguns. It is supposed to work the other way around.

Again, if it were all about value, I'd have a safe full of Rugers and CZs (which wouldn't be all that bad as a CZ75 happens to hold my "second most favorite handgun" spot). I'll go bargain shopping for "fun" guns, but when it comes to my "serious" guns, I'll lay out the cash.

Also, my comments made regarding those who whine about prices made no mention of a belief that others can't afford H&Ks. That has nothing to do with it. You're buying into the whole "H&K owners are elitists" mentality.

Shake

 

[Sean Smith]

So I see.. total strangers bashing HKs and HK owners is a bad thing, but total strangers bashing other guns and their owners is OK. Good call.

 

[Art Eatman]

Leaving out reliability as an issue, since that's really not all that much of a problem with any decently-made pistol, I'll still yell from the rooftops that the best pistol is the one which helps you--and only you, not me--shoot the best.

Sure, cost can be an indicator of quality. Trouble is, it ain't no guarantee. Owning a $1,000+ pistol gives me no right to sneer at somebody's $300 Brand X, as long as his Brand X shoots good for him.

I had a Glock, in whatever model is .45ACP. It shot okay; I could hit with it, but I didn't like the feel. I had a 92S. It shot okay; I could hit with it, but I didn't like the feel. They've both been sold off and I'm staying with my Gummint models just because I like the feel. Simple as that.

Whatever I use and like places no requirements on the rest of the world, and vice versa. I don't care--other than casual curiosity--what is used by the Secret Service, the SEALS or winners in IPSC or IDPA.

I use what works for me. You use what works for you. That way we've both got the world's best pistols.

, Art

 

[Shake]

Art,

I use what works for me. You use what works for you. That way we've both got the world's best pistols.

My feelings exactly. . .

Sean,

So I see.. total strangers bashing HKs and HK owners is a bad thing, but total strangers bashing other guns and their owners is OK. Good call.

Not sure who this is directed at or what statements you're referring to?

I have no problem with anyone bashing H&Ks, I do have a problem with them bashing H&K owners as I think it is childish.

Shake

 

[Boats]

As long as you get the quotes right, there is no such thing as bad publicity. Thanks for quoting me twice and not "calling me out."

I stand by my musings. The HK crowd almost entirely supports the Airsoft industry by itself. I would guess that the natural "subgun" companion to my 1911s would be a Thompson or an M-3 Grease Gun, but not so oddly, I never been bitten by the bug that screams, "buy a fake one to impress your buddies." When I owned Berettas, I never wanted a fake SMG copy of their product either, though it does look cool. So what is it with the HK groupies?

One hundred percent pure snake(crap), that's what.

Let's go over it one more time for the careless reader:

It's a hot night. The mind races. A 17 hour flight to La Paz is etched in red traces on my eyeballs. I had packed my HK USP .40S&W with its captured recoil buffer system and Peters Stahlish lock up. (Implicit criticism of the HK USP owners touting of "superior" engineering genius that matters not at all.) I had two of its priceless magazines in a futuristic custom Bladetech retention system.(Explicit criticism of the price of spare magazines.) Sweat trickles down the small of my back, saturating my black lock-knit HK polo shirt and threatens to soak my Royal Robbins Khaki travel pants. (A good natured jab at Skunkabilly that several posters "got.") Good thing I am carrying strong-side rather than the tactically incorrect small-of-back. (Implicit criticism of the orthodoxy of tactical correctness in the HK circle.) My feet feel resilient in my Himalayan walking shoes.(Gratuitous yuppie slap.) I thumb the decocker--or is it the safety? I can never tell and in the thin air I vow once again to never admit to anyone it might bother me. (Relating my hatred of going from cocked and locked, or unlocked on followup shots, to decocked if I shot my old USP high thumb, decocking under recoil.)

Against a haze of air starved bugs and the cacaphony of a strange tongue clawing its way into the oxygenless atmosphere, I feel the Hostile Environment finish on the lever of the USP where I have it hidden from prying eyes. I try to reassure myself about my beyond top secret assignment. I feel the stippled black polymer--never call it plastic--and it feels like money--or at least like a credit card chewed upon by a teething kitten. (Gee, I didn't like the stippling when I had to live with it. I note that the P2000 doesn't have this "feature.")

Nevertheless I feel better now. If I ever have to shoot from the bowels of an outhouse, the guts of a fish processing ship, Pamela Anderson's boudoir--any repellant place at all--I have been reassured by the Company and literally thousands of internet street pros that I carry the final say in handguns. (Implicit criticism of the breathless relating of "performance" stories derived from laboratory conditions.) Tension is in the air, maybe I will torture my pistol before the dawn breaks. Maybe I will be tortured myself. . . . (Belittling the tendency of certain owners to attribute the "positive virtues" of their HK to themselves.)

Thirty hours later, lost near the Rio Camblaya following the coup attempt, a welcoming smile. Thank God she spotted the epaulettes on the Norwegian ice-fishing vest concealing my USP. I climb aboard the helo on my way to my next exotic assignment, my HK having proven itself in "combat" once again without ever firing a shot in anger. . . . (Criticism once again of trumpeting the results of controlled field T&E and contrasting it against HKs never having to perform in genuinely chaotic situations for extended periods.)

The World of Compromise Uncompromisingly cries out to my inner poseur. . . beckoning to me to get onto the internet and tell the rest of the inferior shooting world about the superiority of my sidearm and myself. (Criticism of the marketing slogan, which to my mind encapsulates the entire HK ubergoober mentality and those who swallow it hook, line and sinker.)

So there, it was about the pistol too. Here you go. . . .

Are panties the latest offering from the HK high performance apparel catalog because they seem to come "prebunched?"

 

[Handy]

Shake,

You left off what happens if you mention the king of "wannabee" firearms, the HK P7.

If you respond to a thread entitled "Name a handgun smaller than a breadbox" with "my P7 is smaller than a breadbox", you will suddenly have 4 guys telling you how stupid you are. Suddenly, your (formerly) reliable carry gun is a $1500 finger burning nightmare, incapable of taking reloads, and more likely to shoot your leg than targets.

The USP is a great gun. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but is tough and dependable. It is also the most accurate combat .40 I know of (a claim the Glock absolutely can't make). It also has an outstanding recoil system that more than accounts for any price difference with some other brands.

I think it's funny that the CZ-75 guys are going on about "value". Their formerly sub $300 favorite is now pushing $500, just like the Glock did years ago.

The USP is the same price as the also excellent Sig 22Xs, and offers more durability and features. It is among the pistols that are sure bets, and even work with 115gr. 9mm.


Boats,
You're a pretty talented writer, and that was funny. But I don't think anyone is going to be surprised on the views of the Anachronism Club President. Admit it, that HiPower is too newfangled for your tastes as well. What chance does a post-WWII design stand?

I am surprised I haven't seen your fiction talents before, especially in threads where you tout the Colt's quality control. I guess we all need our fantasies.

Personally, I have three HKs, but no Airsoft companions, or even any Kydex. You're probably thinking of Tamara.

 

[Shake]

Who'd have thunk it. . .

More unsubstantiated "musings" from Boats. So glad you chimed in, because you make my point. You can't distinguish between "normal" gun owners who happen to prefer USPs to other types of handguns. You lump all USP owners into the categories such as "H&K crowd", "H&K groupies", "yuppies", etc. And that, my friend, is 100% Grade A snake "crap", and I'll call you on it.

You appear to have firsthand knowledge of Airsoft's sales figures (whoever the hell Airsoft is). Why not share with the rest of us? What percentage of H&Ks does Airsoft sell in relation to their other offerings? I'll wait on that figure. Perfect example of the load of crap you have to offer regarding H&Ks.

And no, you don't need to go over your lame story again and highlight inane conclusions we were to have drawn from it. Your "story" was a jab at USP owners pure and simple. The fact that you mixed in a few criticisims of the gun itself doesn't change anything.

Your stereotyping of a group of gun owners strictly by brand is a joke that only you seem to get. If the firearm doesn't work for you, don't freaking buy it.

The fact is, I could light into the 1911 crowd with some of the same jabs, even write a stupid story (if I knew half the "tactical" lingo you do), but guess what? I won't because I'm not an idiot out to get a rise out of someone and I believe people should choose the firearm that works best for them in their situation.

The fact that you feel the need to criticize one particualr group is suspect if you ask me. Surely there are other firearms you don't care for (I have several on that list) why do you feel the need to attack H&K owners, but not others?

Do you really need an explanation of the "panties in a bunch" statement?

Shake

 

[CZ-75]

how do you hold that the Expert offers superior performance?

Wasn't that what it was designed for? Accurate competiton shooting?

I won't know until I buy one, but I'll try for a P7 first.

I think it's funny that the CZ-75 guys are going on about "value".

I'd say that it's still a good value for a proven, reliable design made from steel.

I paid more for mine b/c I wanted "A" models.

i just proved myself right. oh well.

Then you have a low standard of "proof." Oh, well.

Hell, I have $500 worth of USP45 fullcaps.

 

[cratz2]

I'm not a USP ditractor by any means. The full size guns seem a bit too full size to me and I've never shot a Compact so I can't even offer my own insights there. They do seem a bit overpriced and this coming from a die hard 1911 guy with several in the safe. I've had a bit of custom work and I'm trying to talk a local shop owner into selling me my dream pistol as I type this.

On the issue of the USPs seemingly being the most desired by folks that have obviously never shot a pistol... funny you should mention that. I've been told on two different occasions that the Mk 23 is the best pistol in the world. Using very nearly those exact words. One guy also went on to tell us that the Mk 23 was the pistol used by all the SpecOps guys (Rangers, Delta were mentioned) in the military and that all the SEALs had them. When it was suggested that most SEALs in fact carried 226s, it was met with nothing more than a, 'huh'... Then it was suggested that the Mk 23 was what all the SpecOps guys would carry if they could and it was suggested right back to him that many, many folks in the more specialized areas would likely carry customized 1911s if given the chance, the kid looked like he might actually fall over... probably because there's no plastic in them at all!

Anyway, without a doubt, among those just outside the gun community, the USP seems to be the most loved by those that don't own guns and revered as the most tactical, esp the Mk 23. Like it or not, it just goes along with the gun. In much the same way that you can own a Glock 23 and put 20,000 trouble-free rounds through it... when you go to a gun shop that doesn't fawn all over Glock, you'll be told that you've been lucky and it will more than likely blow up in your hand next time out. (By the way, was the term 'ka-boom' coined for the Glock 22/23? )

And for looking down on those with cheaper pistols than your own... I don't care for Rugers, and I ain't on the Hi Point waiting list, but anyone that looks down on the CZ75B SA as atleast a range gun, has either not shot one or is deluding theirself.

 

[Handy]

Cratz,

What does your story about the video game generation have to do with those who are both old enough and have the money to actually buy a pistol?

HK products, partially due to their ubiquitousness in certain professions, get a lot of press. Hence, kids dig them. So what?

The mythical status that produces isn't unique and happens with other guns, too. You, for instance, seem to think that 1911's are in high demand by specialists. There doesn't seem to be any evidence of this, yet we hear it all the time. By repeating it, you're propagating another myth that is just as useful as Mr. Mk23's.



If USPs looked great, but didn't work, then this kind of criticism would have some merit. But they do work and are priced similarly to other competing designs. So how can their owners be written off as fools?