Only Through Secession can we achieve Liberty
- Thread starter The Last Confederate
- Start date
- Status
The R Hawkeye
Member
- Joined
- Jul 10, 2004
- Messages
- 14
Chances are that in today's political environment, the Federal Government would not actually use force to prevent secession. This is not 1861. We have 24 hour news channels now, and it wouldn't look very good on TV for any administration in office to use US troops to attack a seceding state.
Cortland
Member
I think the trick to an effective secession would be to approach it in a highly legalistic manner. If, like Jefferson and Madison, you see the U.S. Constitution as a compact (i.e. contract) between 1) Federal Government and 2) the several States and their citizens, you can then show that the Federal Government has consistently violated (and continues to violate) this contract. Thus the Feds violation of the contract releases you (the State) from and any obligations you had under said contract. This elevates the discourse above arguments over politics and power, and frames it in a more high-minded, clear cut, and less rebelious manner.
Instead of seceding, why can't we just kick other states out...such as California, New York, Nazi Jersey and Marxachusetts.
Lincoln supressed any debate in the U.S. about letting the South keep it's independence. Thousands of people were arrested for speaking their mind. Today, such suppression would be intolerable.
Here is a website of some people who are very serious about secession:
http://www.dixienet.org
Lincoln supressed any debate in the U.S. about letting the South keep it's independence. Thousands of people were arrested for speaking their mind. Today, such suppression would be intolerable.
Here is a website of some people who are very serious about secession:
http://www.dixienet.org
Graystar
Member
But what are you going to do when they fine you and finally come to arrest you?
The_Antibubba
Member
While I really like the idea of two Californias, the idea of actual secession from the U.S. is a fantasy. Law is not immutable; there will be someone who can argue the opposite of what you KNOW to be true. So look all you want for a legal basis to secede, but it won't go anywhere.
The most feasible idea is to simply re-locate elsewhere. If 10,000 are willing to pull up stakes to move to "The Free State", can you get 100,000 who are willing to go to "New America"? What nation will sell us the land? Maybe Kiribati will sell us an island-after all, they're all expected to be under water in 30 years; three decades should give us enough time to work a technological solution.
Still determined to secede, LC? well the problem is, you're not a big enough thorn in the Government's side. By the time you had 1,000,000 like-minded citizens determined to exercise their rights, you might be able to get the Feds to help you leave. OTOH, by the time you had those kinds of numbers, you'd be in a position to effect change from within, negating the need to leave. But heck, we can't even get all gun owners on one page-how do you propose to unite a Freedom Party?
The most feasible idea is to simply re-locate elsewhere. If 10,000 are willing to pull up stakes to move to "The Free State", can you get 100,000 who are willing to go to "New America"? What nation will sell us the land? Maybe Kiribati will sell us an island-after all, they're all expected to be under water in 30 years; three decades should give us enough time to work a technological solution.
Still determined to secede, LC? well the problem is, you're not a big enough thorn in the Government's side. By the time you had 1,000,000 like-minded citizens determined to exercise their rights, you might be able to get the Feds to help you leave. OTOH, by the time you had those kinds of numbers, you'd be in a position to effect change from within, negating the need to leave. But heck, we can't even get all gun owners on one page-how do you propose to unite a Freedom Party?
The R Hawkeye
Member
- Joined
- Jul 10, 2004
- Messages
- 14
If a state seceded, Federal Law Enforcement would not be allowed to operate within the borders. That's the whole idea. They'd be arrested by Sherriff Jim and Deputy Bill, then deported.
Glock Glockler
Member
See WACO as to why it wouldn't work.
Graystar
Member
No... The feds will come into "your" state, say you're still part of the US and that you better start acting like it. When you don't, then they will haul you off.
When you try to deport them, they'll just come back with tanks.
capt. Nemo
Member
California and New York
"The US would not succeed without without Ca. and NY in regatds to the money they generate for the government"
:what
Do you have any idea how much money each of those states absorbs?
Secession is probably not a viable alternative, but it's fun to dream. And the dream turns into a nightmare when California, New York, Massachusetts, Washington and Illinois are included.
Texas...it's like a whole 'nuther country...
"The US would not succeed without without Ca. and NY in regatds to the money they generate for the government"
:what
Do you have any idea how much money each of those states absorbs?
Secession is probably not a viable alternative, but it's fun to dream. And the dream turns into a nightmare when California, New York, Massachusetts, Washington and Illinois are included.
Texas...it's like a whole 'nuther country...
cuchulainn
Member
Wasn't there a project about 5 or 10 years ago where thousands of people were going to go live on some huge boat and create a community free of any nation? What ever happened to that?
Secession is a pipe dream even if those who want to do it are in the right.
The Real Mad Max
Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2004
- Messages
- 92
Balkanization
Yeah! Let's all Balkanize!
Let chaos reign! (You know, cause it all worked out so well the first time we tried that...)
All the freestaters should ban (oops, there's a dirty word!) together and buy up Marlon Brando's island! Then you could go there and start a free state.
Hmmm....but that might involve having to tax your freestaters... you know, to pay for just a few things to get your feet off the ground. So to speak...
Yeah! Let's all Balkanize!
Let chaos reign! (You know, cause it all worked out so well the first time we tried that...)
All the freestaters should ban (oops, there's a dirty word!) together and buy up Marlon Brando's island! Then you could go there and start a free state.
Hmmm....but that might involve having to tax your freestaters... you know, to pay for just a few things to get your feet off the ground. So to speak...
Glock Glockler
Member
If that's the case maybe we shouldn't have seperated from England, or maybe the Baltic states shouldn't have left the Soviet union.
It's a concept called self-determination, some people here believe in it.
It's a concept called self-determination, some people here believe in it.
Penforhire
Member
Can't say much about sucession but CA's economy dwarfs all other states, NY included, and is often expressed as the "eighth largest economy in the world, if compared to countries country."
I'd love to see a N/S split of CA but it will never happen. The larger Southern population needs Northern resources (water) and settling the water supply situation is near-equivalent to peace in the Middle East.
I'd love to see a N/S split of CA but it will never happen. The larger Southern population needs Northern resources (water) and settling the water supply situation is near-equivalent to peace in the Middle East.
California brings in huge amounts of tax dollars, yet their government has billions in debt because of fiscal mismanagment. The government is simply too bloated and provides too many nunecessisary services.
Yes California and New York provide a lot of tax money, but legislators from those areas are also among the worst at fiscal responsibility.
The United States would be just fine without them.
I also suspect that you might find that a lot of businesses would be willing to move out of CA and NY once they start paying taxes for all the services that those state's legislatures would pass without the moderating influence of the rest of the country.
Simply put. Despite the tremendous economy of CA, I don't think the state would survive without the rest of the US.
JohnBT
Member
This letter to the editor appeared in the paper this morning. John
Vermont Native Opposes Secession
Editor, Times-Dispatch:
I live in Charlotte, Vermont, the same town as Thomas Naylor, the transplant from Virginia. We don't need his "help" in seceding from the United States. We pride ourselves on being different, but we do not intend to secede, and we resent Naylor moving to Vermont and then telling us how we should live and what we should do.
Ray McAllister reports in a lighthearted way on Naylor's efforts to get his new home state to secede from the U.S. We in Vermont, however, who have to read Naylor's periodic pontifications and harangues in local editorial columns, do not think it's terribly funny or cute. Naylor continually bombards us with his preachy columns, lecturing us, in his trademark I-know-best style, on what "Vermont" stands for. Many of us are just tired of it.
In a particularly galling example of his recklessness, shortly after 9/11 Naylor shocked and horrified us by suggesting, in a cold-hearted column that appeared in our local newspaper, that Vermont should secede to insulate itself from future acts of terrorism aimed at the U.S. This struck many of us as a variant on the "U.S. deserved it" theory. While many of us were still grieving the murder of friends, colleagues, and fellow American citizens, he was publicly suggesting that Vermont should send the rest of the U.S. and the world a message that Vermont is "separate" so that the terrorists won't target Vermont. It was an insulting slap in the face.
I would have thought that the strong and entirely deserved furious reaction he got to that truly offensive piece would have prompted him to discontinue his public, pompous lecture-mongering. But, alas, no. Naylor continues to dish out his paternalistic nonsense. Some of us wish that he personally would secede - back to Virginia or somewhere else. Walter Judge. charlotte, vt.
Vermont Native Opposes Secession
Editor, Times-Dispatch:
I live in Charlotte, Vermont, the same town as Thomas Naylor, the transplant from Virginia. We don't need his "help" in seceding from the United States. We pride ourselves on being different, but we do not intend to secede, and we resent Naylor moving to Vermont and then telling us how we should live and what we should do.
Ray McAllister reports in a lighthearted way on Naylor's efforts to get his new home state to secede from the U.S. We in Vermont, however, who have to read Naylor's periodic pontifications and harangues in local editorial columns, do not think it's terribly funny or cute. Naylor continually bombards us with his preachy columns, lecturing us, in his trademark I-know-best style, on what "Vermont" stands for. Many of us are just tired of it.
In a particularly galling example of his recklessness, shortly after 9/11 Naylor shocked and horrified us by suggesting, in a cold-hearted column that appeared in our local newspaper, that Vermont should secede to insulate itself from future acts of terrorism aimed at the U.S. This struck many of us as a variant on the "U.S. deserved it" theory. While many of us were still grieving the murder of friends, colleagues, and fellow American citizens, he was publicly suggesting that Vermont should send the rest of the U.S. and the world a message that Vermont is "separate" so that the terrorists won't target Vermont. It was an insulting slap in the face.
I would have thought that the strong and entirely deserved furious reaction he got to that truly offensive piece would have prompted him to discontinue his public, pompous lecture-mongering. But, alas, no. Naylor continues to dish out his paternalistic nonsense. Some of us wish that he personally would secede - back to Virginia or somewhere else. Walter Judge. charlotte, vt.
One problem I see with this "Freestate Project" is the lack of a national identity to fall back upon once they are so-called free.
The League of the South is the only serious pro-secession group I know about. They actually have a national identity--Dixie! The South has a cultural, artistic, religious and political heritage that makes it different from the rest of America. Yet it remains distinctly American. Dixie has its own music, food, and the people down South even talk different. If any part of the U.S. had a case for having a name among the nations of the Earth, it would be Dixie.
If the South were to rise again, what kind of country would it be? It would be strong on defense, but not as the police of the world. Forget abortion--it would be illegal. The right to keep and bear arms would be sacred. Political correctness would become politically incorrect.
The League of the South is the only serious pro-secession group I know about. They actually have a national identity--Dixie! The South has a cultural, artistic, religious and political heritage that makes it different from the rest of America. Yet it remains distinctly American. Dixie has its own music, food, and the people down South even talk different. If any part of the U.S. had a case for having a name among the nations of the Earth, it would be Dixie.
If the South were to rise again, what kind of country would it be? It would be strong on defense, but not as the police of the world. Forget abortion--it would be illegal. The right to keep and bear arms would be sacred. Political correctness would become politically incorrect.
Joe Demko
Member
I haven't seen this much fantasizing since the last time I read Letters to Penthouse.
The Real Mad Max
Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2004
- Messages
- 92
Yeah, Balkanization truly rocks!
And to take it a step further...I'd say let the seperate cities within a particular state seperate.... maybe even seperate wards with in the city...
Cool, total balkanization. Complete chaos...let it reign baby!
Its the only truly free way to do things. That way our education levels will certainly rise, along with some great health care...highway systems, etc. Lord only knows how solid a defense we will have....something comparable to a modern day Sparta perhaps. Whatever, it will be truly awesome!
Everyman for himself! Sweet....why didn't I think of this before?
And to take it a step further...I'd say let the seperate cities within a particular state seperate.... maybe even seperate wards with in the city...
Cool, total balkanization. Complete chaos...let it reign baby!
Its the only truly free way to do things. That way our education levels will certainly rise, along with some great health care...highway systems, etc. Lord only knows how solid a defense we will have....something comparable to a modern day Sparta perhaps. Whatever, it will be truly awesome!
Everyman for himself! Sweet....why didn't I think of this before?
Glock Glockler
Member
The Real Mad Max,
If a group of people in an area think they're being taken advantage of why shouldn't they be allowed to self-govern?
We seperated from England and the Baltic states seperated from the Soviet Union, was that bad? I suppose anything other than a complete one-world govt that controls every aspect of everyone's life is balkanization and chaos?
West Virginia seperated from Virginia because of their disagreement on slavery, has chaos and anarchy resulted?
Sweden and Norway formed a union for a while, they then decided it wasnt working out and peacefully seperated, is this a bad thing?
Killington, VT pays over $20 million to the state govt yet gets only approx. $2 million back. They think they're getting a bad deal and I agree, why shouldn't they be able to join NH? Actually, VT used to be part of NH but you dont seem to like that chaotic idea of them seperating so maybe we should reclaim all of VT, what do you think?
If a group of people in an area think they're being taken advantage of why shouldn't they be allowed to self-govern?
We seperated from England and the Baltic states seperated from the Soviet Union, was that bad? I suppose anything other than a complete one-world govt that controls every aspect of everyone's life is balkanization and chaos?
West Virginia seperated from Virginia because of their disagreement on slavery, has chaos and anarchy resulted?
Sweden and Norway formed a union for a while, they then decided it wasnt working out and peacefully seperated, is this a bad thing?
Killington, VT pays over $20 million to the state govt yet gets only approx. $2 million back. They think they're getting a bad deal and I agree, why shouldn't they be able to join NH? Actually, VT used to be part of NH but you dont seem to like that chaotic idea of them seperating so maybe we should reclaim all of VT, what do you think?
MrAcheson
Member
The federal government owns military bases. It does not pay rent therefore it does not lease them. You don't pay state sales tax at the PX or Burger King on a military base because it is federal land not state land. Private sales to a foriegn nation are completely different and purely an obfuscation.
Rebeldon,
The link you posted, Stalking the Wild Taboo/Secession and the Free State, is an excellent and informative read. http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/dwliv01.html
An article against secession from the same site:
An Infantile Disorder, http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/sf_infan.html
http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/partiton.html
The link you posted, Stalking the Wild Taboo/Secession and the Free State, is an excellent and informative read. http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/dwliv01.html
An article against secession from the same site:
An Infantile Disorder, http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/sf_infan.html
http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/partiton.html
- Status