Open Carry again

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herrwalther

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I know we have these threads every now and then that eventually get locked because of back and forth with nothing really new added. But I found an article today that might breathe new life into this debate.

You see a GunFilth waving its penis substitute, exit, call police. Armed robbery in progress.” So wrote Twitter user “Little Black Dog” on September 13 of this year.

The injunction was a particularly colorful one, but the idea behind it, alas, is not as uncommon as one might wish. “I see you #opencarry with a gun in public,” a man named “joe villa” threatened earlier this week, “i’m calling the cops. psycho behaving erratic. make your day.” A translation for the more literate among us: “The law be damned; exercise your rights under the law and I’ll threaten your life.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/389441/moms-demand-swatting-charles-c-w-cooke

Our good friends over at Moms Demand Action, advocate "SWAT-ing" of open carry practitioners.
 
There is no kind way of putting this, I’m afraid: Ultimately, what we are seeing on the fringes of the gun-control movement is the suggestion that American citizens be “SWATted” for their choices — that, in the name of a political disagreement, one party calls the cops on another and, under false pretenses, puts them in harm’s way. Is this reconcilable with “common sense” change?

A interesting,evocative assessment by the author of the National Review article. What a world we are living in today.
 
Whether or not this becomes a tactic that the misguided anti-gun folks actually use remains to be seen.

The truly alarming thing is that these militant cretins are now publicly advocating this strategy. For shame.
 
Ironic that the people who are allegedly against gun violence are willing to place false calls to 911 to create a situation where police unknowingly commit gun violence on their behalf. These really are some sick people.
 
Reporting false calls like that is itself a crime is it not? Such calls are also very difficult to make anonymously any more.
 
I had some woman try that on me in Wright Park in Tacoma. Hissing angrily into her phone, "...but he's carrying it in the OPEN!"

911 refused to dispatch because there was no crime.
 
I made a committment yesterdoay to start Open Carrying regularly

I attended a concealed carry course yesterday with my wife and some things the instructor said about Open Carry made me decide to do it regularly.

He told the class a lot about the fight for changing the laws for pro-2A rights and conceal carry has taken place over the last eight years. I will admit I did not know about some of the events that have taken place and how the changes occurred.

The instructor was very pro-open carrying and made a statement that struck home with me. He said "a lot of people have put a lot of work into changing the laws so why let that go to waste by not exercising this laws?"

My response to "SWATing" is so what?

1st of all there are surveillance cameras all over now days.

2; False police reports about a man with gun calls are serious business.

3: 911 records the telephone the call is made from so it is easy for the police to determine who is making repeated phone calls.

Last and most important is if you allow what others people might do to stop you from exercising your activity you have given them control of your life.

Following my own advice I open carried when I went to Wal-Mart. I simply did my shopping as I normally do and no one paniced and no cops showed up. I do think I got some looks from some guys I walked by but I think it was more along the lines of what is that cool gun he is carrying.
 
My response to "SWATing" is so what?

I think its because we need to be aware of the practice. What if you are OCing and they SWA you and the responding officer has an itchy trigger finger? We just need to be aware that it could happen. And then find out what charges we can file against the SWATer.
 
Reporting false calls like that is itself a crime is it not? Such calls are also very difficult to make anonymously any more.

Somebody did it last month. The guy carrying a pellet gun, from the Sporting Goods department, around Walmart, seemingly not bothering anybody, when another shopper called 911, lied about being a Marine, lied and said the guy was pointing the gun at children, the police showed up and shot/killed him on sight.

I think its because we need to be aware of the practice. What if you are OCing and they SWA you and the responding officer has an itchy trigger finger? We just need to be aware that it could happen. And then find out what charges we can file against the SWATer.

That did in fact happen, last month, in a way, as I mentioned above. And the guy walking around Walmart shopping with the pellet rifle was in fact shot and killed immediately on first sight despite the fact that he was not acting in a threatening manner and apparently had not threatened anybody.
 
I think its because we need to be aware of the practice. What if you are OCing and they SWA you and the responding officer has an itchy trigger finger? We just need to be aware that it could happen. And then find out what charges we can file against the SWATer.

My response is still so what?

You can play this "what if" game all day, all week, all month, all year long. It is meaningless and you are allowing someone else to control your life.

You as a citizen can not file criminal charges against someone. Civil lawsuit maybe. The "SWATer" is the one that is running the biggest risk.

As for the officer with the "itchy trigger finger" the best way to cure that is to normalize the legal activity of open carry. In fact I am going so far as to keep a copy of the State Statutes in my truck so that a officer that doesn't know the law will after meeting with me.
 
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Somebody did it last month. The guy carrying a pellet gun, from the Sporting Goods department, around Walmart, seemingly not bothering anybody, when another shopper called 911, lied about being a Marine, lied and said the guy was pointing the gun at children, the police showed up and shot/killed him on sight.

I read this weekend that someone calling-in a false 911 call was being charged with manslaughter. I *think* it was this one, but not sure.
 
I read this weekend that someone calling-in a false 911 call was being charged with manslaughter. I *think* it was this one, but not sure.

I certainly hope that is what happened or happens to the case I posted.

I haven't been following it since about the time they released the video from the store though.
 
The caller identified himself as an ex Marine to the media, went on to say how the "suspect" was pointing it at children and other customers, loading the rifle, etc...

The longer I followed the story, the more convinced I was that John Crawford is a SWATting victim.
 
The article is the same one that was printed in the msnbc was reprinted in several different newspapers. There are no such things as news investigators anymore.

I know toy guns have bright orange tips on them. What about BB guns?

I can't open the youtube link so I can't form a opinion of what really took place. However the caller may well be looking at serious legal trouble but criminal and civil. Remember what I said about cameras everywhere and 911 calls being recorded.

The Officers will be cleared as always. The City may end up paying a hugh civil suit though.
 
The article is the same one that was printed in the msnbc was reprinted in several different newspapers. There are no such things as news investigators anymore.

I know toy guns have bright orange tips on them. What about BB guns?

I can't open the youtube link so I can't form a opinion of what really took place. However the caller may well be looking at serious legal trouble but criminal and civil. Remember what I said about cameras everywhere and 911 calls being recorded.

The Officers will be cleared as always. The City may end up paying a hugh civil suit though.

The video wasn't released until after a grand jury was presented with the shooting, the officers were not indicted, despite shooting and killing him on sight when he was threatening nobody.

-Not all toy guns have orange tips
-Some real guns have orange tips added
-It was a pellet gun. It did NOT have an orange tip
 
On October 12, 2014, the state of Missouri will be Open Carry. That determination by the state legislature overrides any local statutes, including KC and St. Louis.

It's been going on this metro for years, no big deal. What a lot of people are keying on is that someone in public with a firearm is being given a blanket assessment of either positive or negative outlook.

Cops get an automatic pass. But a citizen with that same pistol on a belt holster gets suspicious stares as they shop? What's happening? The observer isn't watching their behavior or assessing them for the cues in how they are dressed. An immediate and negative impression is taken because the person doesn't seem to have dispensation by the government for carrying.

It's the misperception of what the Constitution says. WE are the government, WE can carry firearms as we see fit, and WE tell our hired servants how to police that situation. WE had to do that ourselves before there were police, and in the early years, the "coppers" only carried whistles to summon backup - and that was US. WE went in pursuit, caught the individual, and delivered them to the officer so we could get on with our daily lives.

Now the political/sociological trend is to dumb down the citizen to just make a phone call, and what is happening? The opponents of carry are violating the law for their political interest and endangering others.

It's a learning exercise for them and the police, it's going to be particularly steep, and the innocent victims will be citizens just exercising their rights. Unfortunate, yes, but the law does allow for relief. Lawsuits will fly, and I suspect false reporters will get jail time. Officers and dispatchers will get an idea (as if they don't already know,) that the first report is usually WRONG, and they have to sort that out at the scene to see for themselves.

Gunning down a guy handling a pellet rifle before discovering all the facts sounds like a huge liability to that city - I don't see that officer enjoying a long and successful career in law enforcement. That type of reaction will get talked about in a lot of offices, locker rooms, and over quite a few beers off duty to examine not only the mistakes made but also the career ending thought process.

It all starts next week in Missouri - and just like the laws changed in GA and NJ, there probably won't be all that much different. Give it a year and on the anniversary people will ask what was the big deal?

Rivers of blood won't run down the streets, and the lawyers get the money. Carry as you see fit and accept what happens for YOUR decision.
 
I found a video link that work. The image in the camera is small but it appears to me the Crawford never made a obvious turn and pointed the gun at the police.

Warp as you said the Police Officers were cleared as is almost always the case. I know from my years of experience as a LEO it is almost always how I wrote my report on how I could twist the event.

I don't see that officer enjoying a long and successful career in law enforcement

Actually they may very well be promoted. Remember Ruby Ridge? "Oh my God she is holding a baby" murder of Randy Weaver's wife? The FBI sniper and with the FBI Supervisors were not only protected by the Agency but were promoted and had long careers with the FBI.

The bottom line is the Police and anti's get away with this stuff because we allow it. The good news is the public is starting to push back but I fear it may be too late.
 
The video wasn't released until after a grand jury was presented with the shooting, the officers were not indicted, despite shooting and killing him on sight when he was threatening nobody.

As much as people want the police to be indicted for their actions they generally get a pass based on the dangerous situations they have to deal with on a daily bases. It just keeps getting more dangerous for them every day and isn't likely to change. Police are not robots and many lack the training to deal with these types of situations, the incident cited is enough proof of that. It looks like some of the rabid AG crowd is counting on this and hoping for a repeat. They can't get around the fact that it's legal to OC so they want the police to just take care of it by dispatching the immoral offender.

People make inaccurate 911 calls all the time and it's up to the police or fire/EMT to figure out exactly what the situation is before they act. Yes, it makes their job harder but it's just part of the information stream they need to address and act on. Another reason they generally get a pass when they make the wrong call. There is no instant reply and the call can't be reversed.

So everyone needs to be aware that bad things happen to good people who didn't deserve what they got. The guy in Walmart didn't deserve to be shot but he got shot anyway. I doubt seriously that anyone will spend any time in jail because of it.

So I guess from a purely practical position, if you want to establish your legal right to OC a pistol or AR you need to be prepared for the folks that don't want you to and the police response that may or may not come. It's becoming apparent to me the trigger happy police are a bigger threat to your safety than some perceived threat from anyone else.
 
As much as people want the police to be indicted for their actions they generally get a pass based on the dangerous situations they have to deal with on a daily bases. It just keeps getting more dangerous for them every day and isn't likely to change. Police are not robots and many lack the training to deal with these types of situations, the incident cited is enough proof of that. It looks like some of the rabid AG crowd is counting on this and hoping for a repeat. They can't get around the fact that it's legal to OC so they want the police to just take care of it by dispatching the immoral offender.

People make inaccurate 911 calls all the time and it's up to the police or fire/EMT to figure out exactly what the situation is before they act. Yes, it makes their job harder but it's just part of the information stream they need to address and act on. Another reason they generally get a pass when they make the wrong call. There is no instant reply and the call can't be reversed.

So everyone needs to be aware that bad things happen to good people who didn't deserve what they got. The guy in Walmart didn't deserve to be shot but he got shot anyway. I doubt seriously that anyone will spend any time in jail because of it.

So I guess from a purely practical position, if you want to establish your legal right to OC a pistol or AR you need to be prepared for the folks that don't want you to and the police response that may or may not come. It's becoming apparent to me the trigger happy police are a bigger threat to your safety than some perceived threat from anyone else.

That sounds like a good reason not to shoot/kill somebody on sight based on a single 911 caller claiming they were acting in a threatening manner, even though responding officers did not see such behavior in the 2 seconds they were there before firing.
 
I made a committment yesterdoay to start Open Carrying regularly

I've been doing the concealed carry thing now for over 15 years. Since not long after OK started to issue CCW's. They finally changed the law to allow open carry months and months ago but I never got around to doing it. Felt odd or even aggressive after years of concealing. But then I read a well-reasoned article about how responsible gun owners should consider occasional open carry as PR for our community. Stressed that it was important to pay attention to your appearance and actions. Dress decently, shave, smile and act like a friendly person rather than a hermit from a cave. Keep the handgun firmly inside the holster. In other words, act like a responsible and hard working member of the community that just happens to be wearing a handgun on his belt.

I decided he was right and last week I spent several hours in town with a custom .44 Special Ruger Old Model on my hip in a beautiful hand carved holster from Simply Rugged. I felt very self-conscious but I brazened it out. Tried to just act normally and to smile, etc. I saw several people give me a sideways "check this out" kind of look but nobody actually said anything to me.

I consider it a promising start. I think I will always be a concealed kind of guy for every day but open carry now and then seems like a good idea. Nice for the general public to see that some gun people aren't all "in your face" or dressed in dirty camo. Really, the most annoying part about the whole thing was being forced to shave first!

Gregg
 
I've been doing the concealed carry thing now for over 15 years. Since not long after OK started to issue CCW's. They finally changed the law to allow open carry months and months ago but I never got around to doing it. Felt odd or even aggressive after years of concealing. But then I read a well-reasoned article about how responsible gun owners should consider occasional open carry as PR for our community. Stressed that it was important to pay attention to your appearance and actions. Dress decently, shave, smile and act like a friendly person rather than a hermit from a cave. Keep the handgun firmly inside the holster. In other words, act like a responsible and hard working member of the community that just happens to be wearing a handgun on his belt.

I decided he was right and last week I spent several hours in town with a custom .44 Special Ruger Old Model on my hip in a beautiful hand carved holster from Simply Rugged. I felt very self-conscious but I brazened it out. Tried to just act normally and to smile, etc. I saw several people give me a sideways "check this out" kind of look but nobody actually said anything to me.

I consider it a promising start. I think I will always be a concealed kind of guy for every day but open carry now and then seems like a good idea. Nice for the general public to see that some gun people aren't all "in your face" or dressed in dirty camo. Really, the most annoying part about the whole thing was being forced to shave first!

Gregg

I agree.

Well done.
 
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