Open Carry again

[CoalTrain49]

That sounds like a good reason not to shoot/kill somebody on sight based on a single 911 caller claiming they were acting in a threatening manner, even though responding officers did not see such behavior in the 2 seconds they were there before firing.

The very best reason I can think of. Did the guy get shot? Yes. Was his rights violated? Yes. Is the cop going to be held responsible for his actions? No. Is the caller going to be prosecuted? Maybe, but on what charge?

The bottom line is these days cops are more concerned for their safety, and there's a reason for it, than your rights. A perceived threat to them is a real threat and that's going to be hard to dispute. The cops I know would have taken more time to access the situation but the cops I know aren't all cops.

Put yourself in a cops shoes. Call comes in that there is a guy waving a gun around in a store. Cop gets there and see what he believes to be a guy with an AR. Cop has a Glock. He knows (thinks) he is about 1-2 seconds from being toast because he is definitely out gunned here. An order to drop the weapon is ignored for whatever reason. What's your call here? Wait for the dim wit to realize he's about to die or be the first victim in the next "work place" killing spree.

If you want to OC in a crowded public place be prepared for the consequences, good and bad.

 

[Warp]

Put yourself in a cops shoes. Call comes in that there is a guy waving a gun around in a store. Cop gets there and see what he believes to be a guy with an AR. Cop has a Glock. He knows (thinks) he is about 1-2 seconds from being toast because he is definitely out gunned here. An order to drop the weapon is ignored for whatever reason. What's your call here? Wait for the dim wit to realize he's about to die or be the first victim in the next "work place" killing spree.

You should probably watch the video before you try to tell us about what happened.




An order to drop the gun was ignored? What are you basing that on? You realize, of course, that the surveillance camera doesn't have a microphone and no sound was actually recorded by Walmart, but rather, the sound from dispatch/911 was attempted to be matched to the video (keep that in mind when you do decide to watch the video)

Almost certainly my call would not be to shoot the guy as soon as I see him when he does not appear to be threatening anybody.

 

[buck460XVR]

I don't know how someone murdered by a dumb (edited) cop because he was carrying a air rifle in Walmart, has anything at all to do with responsible O.C. The video clearly shows a murder, and it should have been
prosecuted as such.

I had a cop pull a gun on me 35 years ago. His finger was on the trigger and he was hollerin' at me to get down on the ground. I had just stepped out of a car to let another passenger out as they had pulled up for a noise complaint for the house across the street. His partner was yelling at him to put his %$# damn gun away. The partner then came over apologized and asked me not to make a big deal outta it, as the officer was new. I knew the partner quite well and expected him to make it right. The cop that drew on me, has since ran for County Sheriff, claiming an outstanding and excellent service record.

I have much respect for those in the law enforcement community, but like every other job in the world, there are some that should have never been hired. There are also some that as humans make honest mistakes. The cop that pulled the gun on me, like the cop in the video, should have never been hired. Hiding our firearms from folks like that are not a guarantee they are not a threat to us. Any responsible cop knows that OC is legal in their jurisdiction and should also make sure anyone with a firearm is a threat before killing them. If not, they too need to be treated like criminals.

Thousands of folks get hurt/killed every year driving a car, but most of us still drive. Many folks get hurt/killed every year while hunting....and many of us still hunt. Folks die of heart disease every year and yet, many of us still insist on eating too much red meat with too much salt on it. If you are not going to live, you may as well be dead anyway.

 

[Warp]

I don't know how [this] has anything at all to do with responsible O.C.

It is related to OC because it is an example of somebody calling 911, lying to dispatch, claiming that a person was pointing a firearm at children, police responding, and police shooting/killing immediately, based almost entirely on what the lying 911 caller said

And there are people saying they will do this to open carriers.

 

[mgmorden]

How in the heck are they protesting in Ferguson and not over this? Not only did the guy with the air rifle die for nothing, but according to the article the woman seen in the aisle near him immediately prior to the events unfolding had a heart attack due to the commotion and also died.

The caller should be charged with manslaughter. The cop should be charged with 2nd degree murder. To many guys in uniform are getting away with too much these days.

 

[CoalTrain49]

You should probably watch the video before you try to tell us about what happened.

OK, I watched it. No sound so no way to know if he didn't comply with an order. I wasn't part of the GJ investigation on this one but 99% of the time an order is given and people choose not to comply. Then bad things happen. I wasn't referring to the incident in the video anyway.

Walk around in Walmart with an AR (or look alike) if you wish. Take one into an airport if you want. I understand that you can do that in certain places like baggage claim and ticket counters. Good luck.

 

[mgmorden]

Walk around in Walmart with an AR (or look alike) if you wish. Take one into an airport if you want. I understand that you can do that in certain places like baggage claim and ticket counters. Good luck.

He picked up an item for sale in the store and was continuing to browse. This isn't OC Texas or anything walking around with an AR because "it's their right". What he did was completely normal. This guy was gunned down for picking up a BB gun in a store that sells them. The guy in the video is not at fault, and the cop has no excuse.

 

[Bobson]

I'm at work, can't watch the video.

1. Was the gun in a box? I'm guessing no.
2. Anyone ever been to a Wal-Mart that sells guns (either real guns, air guns, or toy guns) without a box? I haven't. Just saying.

I'm thinking the best thing you can do is call 911 and tell them you're open carrying at the given store and someone just said they're going to SWAT you.

This world is pretty screwed up. There isn't much else to say about this, but to point out that people need Christ. Seems like most balanced people recognize that things are getting worse and worse, not better and better. Start praying.

 

[lxd55]

I open carry and no one pays attention, unless they want to know what my handgun is.

 

[Warp]

OK, I watched it. No sound so no way to know if he didn't comply with an order. I wasn't part of the GJ investigation on this one but 99% of the time an order is given and people choose not to comply. Then bad things happen.

Don't make assumptions and then state them as if they are facts, please.

 

[Warp]

I'm at work, can't watch the video.

1. Was the gun in a box? I'm guessing no.
2. Anyone ever been to a Wal-Mart that sells guns (either real guns, air guns, or toy guns) without a box? I haven't. Just saying.

I'm thinking the best thing you can do is call 911 and tell them you're open carrying at the given store and someone just said they're going to SWAT you.

This world is pretty screwed up. There isn't much else to say about this, but to point out that people need Christ. Seems like most balanced people recognize that things are getting worse and worse, not better and better. Start praying.

The gun was not in a box.

I highly doubt they will come up and tell you that they are going to "SWAT" you. But yes if somebody threatened me with that I would report them immediately.

 

[BSA1]

Warp & xld55,

Thank you for your courage to Open Carry.

 

[mgmorden]

The gun was not in a box.

Indeed - though it is quite common for Walmart to sell things without boxes by just slapping a price and barcode sticker on it (often times at a discount). My first LCD TV came from Wal-mart this way - no box.

I'm not much of a haggler but I've even known my mother to find something without a box or a sticker and go up front to the service desk to ask if they would sell that one at a discount. Sometimes it works - sometimes not, but the bottom line is that no one should have to fear for their life for picking up merchandise for sale in a store.

 

[Bobson]

Thank you for your courage to Open Carry

Indeed. This sort of thing only has two possible outcomes.

1) People are talking, but an overwhelming majority won't ever do it. This is the preferable possibility.

2) People will "SWAT" legal carriers with increasing frequency until LE agencies realize what's going on and start really ramping up prosecutions on these calls. In the meantime, people who aren't doing anything wrong are quite possibly going to lose their lives.

 

[Bobson]

...the bottom line is that no one should have to fear for their life for picking up merchandise for sale in a store.

Of course I wholeheartedly agree with you. Unfortunately, a great number of things that shouldn't ever happen still happen on a regular basis. Women shouldn't ever be raped. Children shouldn't ever have their limbs hacked off because their parents taught them about Jesus. Americans shouldn't be gunned down by peace officers despite having done nothing wrong.

All have happened and all will continue to happen. The question is, what can/should/will we do about it?

 

[CoalTrain49]

Don't make assumptions and then state them as if they are facts, please.

I never stated anything as a fact. Re-read my post.

Here it is for you again.

Put yourself in a cops shoes. Call comes in that there is a guy waving a gun around in a store. Cop gets there and see what he believes to be a guy with an AR. Cop has a Glock. He knows (thinks) he is about 1-2 seconds from being toast because he is definitely out gunned here. An order to drop the weapon is ignored for whatever reason. What's your call here? Wait for the dim wit to realize he's about to die or be the first victim in the next "work place" killing spree.

I didn't reference this shooting.

To be perfectly honest with you I think this incident was very unfortunate. The guy was just doing what he believed to be normal and had no reason to suspect otherwise. Maybe he was hearing impaired, maybe there was a PA in the store when he was ordered to drop his weapon and he wasn't able to hear the command, maybe it was a rookie cop who was trigger happy...maybe any number of things happened. But cops have to deal with all kinds of people and are expected to make the right call and show restraint every time. Doesn't always happen. He was probably right but dead just the same.

If you like to watch video here is one where there never was a weapon seen but we still see some shots fired by a cop. This one went south also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBL6AEkvLbk

 

[Warp]

I didn't reference this shooting.

Well, this is the one that is relevant to the topic of this thread.

If there are any other videos of officer reactions when they show up after a liar who calls 911 and claims a person was threatening people with a gun when he was not please link them.

 

[Fastgun]

walmart bbgun killing

First let me say , what a horrible ,sad case. I do open carry, i consider it my right and don't much care what other people think. When i put y pants on I put my pistol on. However, if you saw the video from walmart and you have bee that cop ,I dare say you would have done the same. Because we can does translate to , lets be stupid. What a sad case. who ever mad that 911 call should be jailed for life as that phone call took a man life as sure as the bullet he was shot with,

 

[Warp]

First let me say , what a horrible ,sad case. I do open carry, i consider it my right and don't much care what other people think. When i put y pants on I put my pistol on. However, if you saw the video from walmart and you have bee that cop ,I dare say you would have done the same. Because we can does translate to , lets be stupid. What a sad case. who ever mad that 911 call should be jailed for life as that phone call took a man life as sure as the bullet he was shot with,

Nope. Probably not.

 

[Bobson]

Agreed they should be prosecuted to the full extent possible. Does anyone work or know someone who works in an emergency dispatch center? I'm curious whether the caller's info is always recorded, or if anonymous calls are possible. Speculation isn't helpful on this one, so save it if that's what you have.

 

[TomJ]

One possible course of action is to work with your local police department on this issue, especially in areas where open carry is new. Make them aware of the "SWATing" tactics and phony 911 calls the anti gunners either plan on using or have already started to use. Ask them to remind their officers that there are law abiding citizens open carrying in the area, and that 911 calls regarding them may be fraudulent. Finally, remind them that any person making a phony 911 call should face the appropriate criminal charges.

As a former patrolman, I can tell you that while I worked with a number of bad apples, the majority of these men and women are good people doing a difficult job. I fully expect them to be furious with the anti-gunners using them as potential executioners, and hope that this practice backfires on the anti's, as they face criminal prosecution.

Finally, if one of these sick individuals places a phony 911 call regarding you, let the responding officer know that you'd like to press all available charges and then hire the best civil attorney you could find and put them through the ringer. Legally, make the price they pay for doing this so steep that they'll rethink this practice.

 

[george burns]

You can't worry about everything, I have been at gunpoint several times, the strangest was when someone thought I was on America's most wanted about 25 yrs ago in P.R. while on Vacation. They were so nervous that the two police cars hit each other screaming into the parking lot in the shopping center. I just kept saying "Tourist on Vacation" "take your finger off the trigger".
The one guy was so nervous that his gun was shaking, I finally got him to calm down, but stuff happens.
Cops will get wise to this fast and proceed with caution on this kind of call. I would bet that there have been strategy meetings already on how to best screen these calls.
The funny thing looking back, was that the guy looked like me almost exactly except he was a foot shorter. I got a lights and siren ride to the airport as an apology. There are always going to be idiots like this, but it usually blows over fast.

 

[barnbwt]

Has anyone been arrested or otherwise penalized for SWATing an OC person? The tactic has been around for years (the whole MWAG thing) and it seems they are usually forgiven or ignored by responders, under the assumption "they didn't know it was legal" (when else is "I didn't know" a similarly legitimate defense?

TCB

 

[CoalTrain49]

Well, this is the one that is relevant to the topic of this thread.

You're the one who introduced Crafords shooting to the thread in post #9. I guess everyone's post but yours are irrelevant. Maybe you need to sign up as a moderator so you can delete posts that you deem not relevant.

BTW, here is the topic of the thread. I saw no mention of Crawfords shooting in the OP.

Our good friends over at Moms Demand Action, advocate "SWAT-ing" of open carry practitioners.

Just wanted to add that video's don't tell the whole story. The LEO was cleared. Several witnesses claimed Crawford refused numerous commands to drop the weapon and turned toward the officers in a manor that appeared to them to be confrontational. Two real bad moves any day of the week.

 

[Warp]

You're the one who introduced Crafords shooting to the thread in post #9.

Yes, I did.

You are welcome for my post where I provided a recent real world example complete with video where the exact thing the OP discussed happened.

Just wanted to add that video's don't tell the whole story. The LEO was cleared. Several witnesses claimed Crawford refused numerous commands to drop the weapon and turned toward the officers in a manor that appeared to them to be confrontational. Two real bad moves any day of the week.

I don't need witness statements about what they think happened when the police confronted him...I'd rather watch the video and see it for myself.