Open carry ...at the Post Office?

[NavyLCDR]

NOTE 2: My general detached view of all this is that Post Office officials generally don't want you to carry in their facilities, but there really isn't much they can do about it except huff and puff and make it sound like you can't. <This is not legal advice, only my own rather acid comment on it all.

I believe the fine is $500 and up to 30 days in jail:

Title 39: Postal Service
§ 232.1 Conduct on postal property.
(p) Penalties and other law. (1) Alleged violations of these rules and regulations are heard, and the penalties prescribed herein are imposed, either in a Federal district court or by a Federal magistrate in accordance with applicable court rules. Questions regarding such rules should be directed to the regional counsel for the region involved.

(2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and regulations in this section while on property under the charge and control of the Postal Service is subject to a fine as provided in 18 U.S.C. 3571 or imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations or any State and local laws and regulations applicable to any area in which the property is situated.

(q) Enforcement. (1) Members of the U.S. Postal Service security force shall exercise the powers provided by 18 U.S.C. 3061(c)(2) and shall be responsible for enforcing the regulations in this section in a manner that will protect Postal Service property and persons thereon.

(2) Local postmasters and installation heads may, pursuant to 40 U.S.C. 1315(d)(3) and with the approval of the chief postal inspector or his designee, enter into agreements with State and local enforcement agencies to insure that these rules and regulations are enforced in a manner that will protect Postal Service property.

(3) Postal Inspectors, Office of Inspector General Criminal Investigators, and other persons designated by the Chief Postal Inspector may likewise enforce regulations in this section.

If you commit a crime while armed on postal property, then you get the sentence enhancement called for in 18 USC 930 (b) and/or (c).

Good luck.

 

[wacki]

Law enforcement officers are selected from the community. They are no more "stupid" than anyone else.

Actually, that's not true. Smart people are officially banned from being cops in parts of New England:

New York Times: METRO NEWS BRIEFS: CONNECTICUT; Judge Rules That Police Can Bar High I.Q. Scores Published: September 09, 1999

 

[whanson_wi]

Just went through a CCL course a few months back, and the Post Office (along with courtrooms, prisons, schools, etc) was specifically mentioned as a "no-go zone".

The rules are so convoluted that good people can make mistakes. I wish all of these places that are illegal to carry but don't require a sign would post signs anyway, for clarity. It would cost a whole ten-spot or so per door, and be well worth it.

 

[230RN]

Re NavyLCDR's post 26:

(p) Penalties and other law. (1) Alleged violations of these rules and regulations are heard, and the penalties prescribed herein are imposed, either in a Federal district court or by a Federal magistrate in accordance with applicable court rules. Questions regarding such rules should be directed to the regional counsel for the region involved.

Real explicit about which "rules" they're talking about, and this is a criminal offense, where the laws should be explicit and not subject to interpretation.

...and...

Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations or any State and local laws and regulations applicable to any area in which the property is situated.

and this...

2) Local postmasters and installation heads may, pursuant to 40 U.S.C. 1315(d)(3) and with the approval of the chief postal inspector or his designee, enter into agreements with State and local enforcement agencies to insure that these rules and regulations are enforced in a manner that will protect Postal Service property.

...all put together tells me that they don't know what they're talking about, either. My opinion, as noted above in Note 2, is that they'd sure like to keep guns off of post office property, but realize that all they can do is huff and puff about it. <This is not legal advice.

The last quote above seems to recognize the ability of local government to allow it if they want to.

Also, per TInpig's quote (again, from Massachussetts) says:

Regulations in the CFR have to be based on laws in the United States Code, must be consistent with them, and cannot supercede them. Section (p)(2) of the 39 CFR 232.1 recognizes this fact. That is, the CFR cannot abrogate applicable Federal law.

But nobody really seems to know what this "applicable Federal law" is. Excepting the highest law of the land, that is {insert quotation of the Second Amendment here}.

Incorporated to the States or not, that would seem to bind the Federal government from making any laws about Post Office carry at all, whether it's a quasi-government agency or a private outfit. (I note the PO's website has a "com" domain, and not a "gov" domain.)

Moreover, I don't enter the Post Office with any evil intent. I just want to get my bills and birthday cards out of my box and go home.

I repeat, I don't want to be a test case, so I park on the street, unlimber my iron, secure it in the car pursuant to local law, and go get my bills and birthday cards.

And unlimbering that iron is a royal pain in summertime, when I'm carrying in an ankle rig. Or in winter, when I may be carrying a backup defensive firearm as well.

I emphasize once again, that in reviewing literally hundreds of posts in the last ten years about Post Office Carry (POC) written by lawyers and those in the population who are most concerned about its legality (thee and me), nobody has come up with any really comprehensive understanding of this vague passel of laws and regulations.

Witness thereto, this thread, here in April of 2012.

I submit, therefore, that the totality of these laws and regulations are vague and incomprehensible to ordinary mortals.

And are hence unconstitutional on that basis alone.

This is not legal advice <click> this is not legal advice <click> this is not legal advice....

Terry, 230RN

 

[CZguy]

Moreover, I don't enter the Post Office with any evil intent.

I don't either..........I leave that up to the employees.

 

[NavyLCDR]

http://about.usps.com/posters/pos7.pdf

Weapons and Explosives
No person while on Postal Service property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on Postal Service property, except for official purposes.

http://about.usps.com/posters/pos158.pdf

Possessing a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a federal facility for
other than official purposes, causing such a weapon to be present, or
attempting to do so are punishable by a fine, imprisonment for up to 1
year, or both.

If the prohibited weapon is intended to be used to commit a crime, the
penalty is an increased fine, imprisonment for up to 5 years, or both.
Title 18, United States Code, Section 930

No person on U.S. Postal Service property may carry or store firearms,
explosives, or other dangerous or deadly weapons, either openly or
concealed, except for official purposes.
Title 39, Code of Federal Regulations, Section 232.1

Go ahead and do whatever you want to with your guns on US Post Office property. There is no conflict between 39 CFR 232.1 and 18 USC 930, they both act together to prohibit firearms on Post Office property. Just like passing through the gates to a US military base - tell the gate guard there that the pistol concealed on your person is for "other lawful" or "official" purposes and see how far the gate guard lets you go, and that is only under 18 USC 930.

For "official purposes" means an FFL transporting an unloaded handgun for mailing, any person carrying an unloaded rifle or shotgun for mailing, or persons carrying service firearms authorized by a government agency for official use while on duty such as a LEO on duty.

NOTE: I will say that since no Post Office that I know of has the posting required by 18 USC 930, a person could only be convicted under 39 CFR 232.1 for the mere carrying of a loaded firearm on Postal Property and not 18 USC 930.

 

[oneounceload]

My PO has a sign explicitly prohibiting weapons (meaning not just firearms) upon entering the facility

Carry if you want, for me, it is not worth the risk of losing all of my guns for a 5 minute trip to the PO

 

[NavyLCDR]

My PO has a sign explicitly prohibiting weapons (meaning not just firearms) upon entering the facility

Carry if you want, for me, it is not worth the risk of losing all of my guns for a 5 minute trip to the PO

Oh but come on, you could be the next McDonald or Heller!

 

[Deltaboy1984]

The Rule is a joke since it never stopped their employees from going POSTAL. I have seen State, County and City LEO's and even a few Military people with sidearms in the Post Office. I buy stamps at my Grocery Store and mail packages with a Private Mail Service so the PO can take a long walk off a short plank with this stupid rule.

 

[writerinmo]

I have yet to see where a court decision has defined what exactly the term "For official purposes" means. Hopefully the court case currently making it's way (probably) to the Supreme Court will lay this to rest. Since my CC permit is indeed an "official" document and all...

 

[ArmedOkie]

Detectives in my area are allowed to wear casual clothing.

 

[lloveless]

So the second admendment states" No infringement". Therefore the Post office is in violation of the Constitution of the USA.
ll

 

[4v50 Gary]

I carried in a post office, but I was LE and in uniform. I think the post office is off limits to carry for anyone who isn't LE. They can always have the Postal Police arrest the person. A criminal charge and conviction does a pro-gun person no good.

 

[Redlg155]

I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to be a test case in order to establish a precedence. I'll just keep mine in the vehicle. I will just have to rely on my other skills that have kept me alive the last 43 years.

 

[gfanikf]

It is a federal building and is not legal to carry.

Yeah, I had stuff in my trunk from the range and went to mail something, just to be on the safe side I parked in the lot next to it to ensure nothing was in or on Federal property.

 

[brboyer]

Where is "Official Purposes" defined in the CFR?

If it is defined anywhere, does it include a LEO handling personal business or even agency business?

 

[FM12]

LCDR: You remind me of a Lt Cdr i served with in the Navy.

 

[FMF Doc]

I generally leave mine in the truck, parked in public street, no PO, parking. But more importantly, other than a location that is really anti-gun, how many people know &/or care? and secondly, if you are carrying concealed, no one knows, so again...who cares??? It isn't like there are metal detectors at the PO, too many legal things that would set them off. I am not advocating knowingly breaking the law, but if it is unclear, and there is not a climate of "give a sh*t, and it stays concealed, as it should, no harm, no foul in my book.

 

[Nutnspecial]

WoW! This was one good read!

 

[NWCP]

You can't carry open, or concealed in post office. All that I've been in have been posted.

 

[Tinpig]

Posted by 230RN:

I'm not familiar with what a Class A License to Carry is. May I assume that's relevant only to Massachusetts, or does it refer to some federal class of license?

Yes, that's the Massachusetts license for concealed handgun carry, it's not federal.

I'm a builder, not a lawyer or a police officer, so I make no suggestions or recommendations to other people about what they should do unless it's in the building trades.
But as a matter of interest I posted the published interpretation of the Massachusetts State Police on Post Office concealed-carry as being legal for duly licensed Mass. citizens.
I act accordingly, no one else needs to.
Incidentally, I've never seen a sign that prohibited firearms in any Post Office or private business in Massachusetts, but then I don't live in Boston.

Tinpig

 

[NavyLCDR]

But as a matter of interest I posted the published interpretation of the Massachusetts State Police on Post Office concealed-carry as being legal for duly licensed Mass. citizens.
I act accordingly, no one else needs to.

Unfortunately, the Massachusetts State Police have no jurisdiction or authority to decide what is legal or not on property under the control of the US Federal Government. For example, take your handgun to the John F. Kennedy Federal Building in Boston, show your Class A license to carry and let them know that you intend to carry your handgun inside the building because the MA State Police says that you can. How far do you think you would get?

When you are in front of a Federal judge, for violating a Federal regulation, arrested by a Federal LEO, charged by a Federal prosecutor, do you really think that the Massachusettes State Police's opinion is really going to be considered?

Any opinion can be supported by at least one "expert".