Okay... here we go... I have concealed carried since the day i turned 21. both concealed carry and open carry are legal here in my state. I am a graduate student at my university and minus university grounds, i carry everywhere. ( we also have a shooting range on campus... East Tennessee State University) so i have recently contemplated the idea of doing some open carrying. Im not asking for moral right or wrongs here, just advice and pros and cons! thanks
Open Carry in TN
- Thread starter cook45
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NavyLCDR
member
Pros:
1. Deterring crime instead of having to defend yourself against a crime in progress being committed against you.
2. Don't have to adjust your wardrobe around your gun. You just dress however you like, and if your gun shows or is completely visible, so be it.
3. Public education and desensitizing. It shows that it is perfectly acceptable for an American to have the means available to defend themselves.
4. It shows support for the Constitution, which we desperately need to get back to in our government.
5. Easier access and, therefore, faster drawing time.
Cons:
1. Negative interactions with sheeple and leo.
There is no factual basis behind the statement that a bad guy is going to see your gun and shoot you first in a crime or shoot you to take your gun.
1. Deterring crime instead of having to defend yourself against a crime in progress being committed against you.
2. Don't have to adjust your wardrobe around your gun. You just dress however you like, and if your gun shows or is completely visible, so be it.
3. Public education and desensitizing. It shows that it is perfectly acceptable for an American to have the means available to defend themselves.
4. It shows support for the Constitution, which we desperately need to get back to in our government.
5. Easier access and, therefore, faster drawing time.
Cons:
1. Negative interactions with sheeple and leo.
There is no factual basis behind the statement that a bad guy is going to see your gun and shoot you first in a crime or shoot you to take your gun.
THE DARK KNIGHT
Member
+1
Open Carry may be legal, but do be ready to have negative interactions with people, from something as silly as a dirty look, to being tackled to the ground by an over-zealous cop responding to a sheeple's panic 911 call.
Lancel
Member
If a bad guy already knows where my gun is then I loose any chance of getting it into my hand before he uses his own weapon.
The odds are tremendously improved if he thinks I am getting my wallet instead of drawing my weapon.
Also, if the bad guys know where the weapon is, they will try to control it to their advantage. - e.g. one confronts in front while another controls the gun or gun hand from the side or rear. It happens too fast for conversation.
In short, I would rather walk around with my penis exposed than my pistol. Neither one is up for grabs.
Larry
The odds are tremendously improved if he thinks I am getting my wallet instead of drawing my weapon.
Also, if the bad guys know where the weapon is, they will try to control it to their advantage. - e.g. one confronts in front while another controls the gun or gun hand from the side or rear. It happens too fast for conversation.
In short, I would rather walk around with my penis exposed than my pistol. Neither one is up for grabs.
Larry
I am in Kingsport, and I open carry wherever possible or prudent. In my experience, as long as you're not dressed like a bum, most people don't really give it a second glance. East TN has a pretty decent gun culture going for it.
As explained by a federal LEO friend of mine, most people seeing a paddle holster and a decent set of clothes will write you off as off-duty LE. To be honest, I've also open-carried in the presence of LEO's before and have never been stopped, questioned, or even given a second glance.
As explained by a federal LEO friend of mine, most people seeing a paddle holster and a decent set of clothes will write you off as off-duty LE. To be honest, I've also open-carried in the presence of LEO's before and have never been stopped, questioned, or even given a second glance.
Flea, thats what I thought would happen, especially being passed off as a off duty leo. I carry a springie 1911A1, and im about 6 feet, 230 pounds and to be quite honest a full size can be quite uncomfortable concealed on the hip of a bigger person. Navy LT i liked all your pros but I especially liked these...
3. Public education and desensitizing. It shows that it is perfectly acceptable for an American to have the means available to defend themselves.
4. It shows support for the Constitution, which we desperately need to get back to in our government.
I believe its as much a statement and a lifestyle, as it is a tactical advantage.
3. Public education and desensitizing. It shows that it is perfectly acceptable for an American to have the means available to defend themselves.
4. It shows support for the Constitution, which we desperately need to get back to in our government.
I believe its as much a statement and a lifestyle, as it is a tactical advantage.
NavyLCDR
member
Lancel said:
Larry, since what you speak of is of such common occurrence that you, and many other CC'ers are concerned about it, can you please show us the news reports and events where this has actually happened in real life?
TheFederalistWeasel
member
You need to read the TCA for Disorderly Conduct
As a Metro Nashville cop, I am strong advocate of going armed, but alot of jurisdictions are not. What I see alot are officers charging under DOC and articulating a public annoyance or alarm. The Judges accept this basis and uphold the arrest and convict.
Just a statement of fact here, I've never seen anyone beat this type of arrest/charge.
Now if you want to be a test case and push this issue up the judicial food chain by all means go for it, but it will be a huge headache and cost a sizable amount to win. We need it, but who here has the money to undertake such a legal battle?
As a Metro Nashville cop, I am strong advocate of going armed, but alot of jurisdictions are not. What I see alot are officers charging under DOC and articulating a public annoyance or alarm. The Judges accept this basis and uphold the arrest and convict.
Just a statement of fact here, I've never seen anyone beat this type of arrest/charge.
Now if you want to be a test case and push this issue up the judicial food chain by all means go for it, but it will be a huge headache and cost a sizable amount to win. We need it, but who here has the money to undertake such a legal battle?
Federalist:
Apparently those people didn't have attorneys, or they were actually doing more than just carrying unconcealed. It's pretty cut and dry in TN that OC is legal. Period.
OC is a very debated topic on firearms forums. My opinion: It doesn't matter. OC or CC has advantages and disadvantages that about even out. Do what you feel more comfortable with.
Apparently those people didn't have attorneys, or they were actually doing more than just carrying unconcealed. It's pretty cut and dry in TN that OC is legal. Period.
OC is a very debated topic on firearms forums. My opinion: It doesn't matter. OC or CC has advantages and disadvantages that about even out. Do what you feel more comfortable with.
NavyLCDR
member
I can hardly see how engaging in perfectly legal behavior (carrying a firearm in a holster in states that allow it) can be even remotely construed as "intent to cause public annoyance or alarm".
Heck, if you are going to carry it that far, I guess you can arrest people for chewing and popping gum too loudly in line at the grocery store with intent to cause public annoyance.
Heck, if you are going to carry it that far, I guess you can arrest people for chewing and popping gum too loudly in line at the grocery store with intent to cause public annoyance.
TheFederalistWeasel
member
Come on down to the Criminal Justice Center on any given day of the week, usually court room 3A or 3C, have a seat and watch the events unfold regarding the DOC charges, you'll see just how the Judges care about the law...
And yes several did have attorneys, but do you know how much a conviction appeal costs?
And yes several did have attorneys, but do you know how much a conviction appeal costs?
NavyLCDR
member
More than the fine. That's how Washington state keeps appeals from happening!
TheFederalistWeasel
member
Same thing seems to be the case in WI
http://www.wkowtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=10879014
Madison man walks downtown with gun in broad daylight, ticketed
Posted: Aug 10, 2009 1:09 PM
MADISON (WKOW) -- A UW-Madison graduate student says he will fight a ticket he received last weekend after walking through the downtown area carrying a gun in broad daylight.
Travis Yates asked us not to show his face, but agreed to show the gun that got him ticketed.
"It's just your typical run of the mill handgun that most people would want to buy for self defense," he said of the .9 semiautomatic weapon. "I always try to keep the shirt off of it so it doesn't conceal it."
It was like that on his right hip when he walked about a dozen blocks early Saturday evening from his home east of the Capitol to halfway down State Street. Yates said he never took it out of the holster, but someone called police.
An arriving officer handcuffed him, then took him back to his home and eventually cited him with disorderly conduct.
Yates called his protest proof that Wisconsin's ban against concealed carry creates a Catch-22.
"If I were concealing it in my backpack, nobody would have seen it, but then it's concealed," he said. "You're damned if you do, damned if you don't."
"We can't just theoretically have the right to defend ourselves," he added. "It has to be an actual right, people have to do it."
This walk through Wisconsin's gun laws comes three months after Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen issued an advisory to the state's district attorneys, asking them to consider circumstances before charging someone who openly carries with disorderly conduct. That memorandum was issued following an incident in West Allis in February in which a homeowner was charged after a neighbor saw him walking on his lawn with a gun in plain view.
Madison Police Captain Victor Wahl wrote in a internal newsletter this spring that police procedures likely won't change, and that "the location of the incident, the behavior of the suspect and the reactions of the witnesses will all be relevant to this determination."
People downtown on Monday were mixed on how they would react.
"I'd still be concerned if it wasn't law enforcement because what happens if I accidentally bump into him," said Chris Dwight, who was visiting from Seattle. "What's the reaction going to be?"
UW-Whitewater sophomore Matt Seefeldt said it would depend on how the person was acting with the weapon. "If he was waving it around I would call, but if it was on his hip, I would still be worried, but I wouldn't freak out that much about it."
"It's not my fault that somebody gets scared by me exercising my rights," said Yates. "I don't know if they're honestly scared. I don't know if they honestly felt like something bad was going to happen."
Yates said he understands if someone calls his actions in, but would like dispatchers or police to ask more questions about why that person is openly carrying a gun before handcuffing and ticketing them with disorderly conduct. He said he spent months studying Wisconsin's gun laws before deciding to make his protest. In fact, he had a copy of them in his pocket to show the responding officer.
Madison city attorney Michael May declined comment on this case at this time.
Yates' court date is set for September. He faces a $429 fine.
http://www.wkowtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=10879014
Madison man walks downtown with gun in broad daylight, ticketed
Posted: Aug 10, 2009 1:09 PM
MADISON (WKOW) -- A UW-Madison graduate student says he will fight a ticket he received last weekend after walking through the downtown area carrying a gun in broad daylight.
Travis Yates asked us not to show his face, but agreed to show the gun that got him ticketed.
"It's just your typical run of the mill handgun that most people would want to buy for self defense," he said of the .9 semiautomatic weapon. "I always try to keep the shirt off of it so it doesn't conceal it."
It was like that on his right hip when he walked about a dozen blocks early Saturday evening from his home east of the Capitol to halfway down State Street. Yates said he never took it out of the holster, but someone called police.
An arriving officer handcuffed him, then took him back to his home and eventually cited him with disorderly conduct.
Yates called his protest proof that Wisconsin's ban against concealed carry creates a Catch-22.
"If I were concealing it in my backpack, nobody would have seen it, but then it's concealed," he said. "You're damned if you do, damned if you don't."
"We can't just theoretically have the right to defend ourselves," he added. "It has to be an actual right, people have to do it."
This walk through Wisconsin's gun laws comes three months after Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen issued an advisory to the state's district attorneys, asking them to consider circumstances before charging someone who openly carries with disorderly conduct. That memorandum was issued following an incident in West Allis in February in which a homeowner was charged after a neighbor saw him walking on his lawn with a gun in plain view.
Madison Police Captain Victor Wahl wrote in a internal newsletter this spring that police procedures likely won't change, and that "the location of the incident, the behavior of the suspect and the reactions of the witnesses will all be relevant to this determination."
People downtown on Monday were mixed on how they would react.
"I'd still be concerned if it wasn't law enforcement because what happens if I accidentally bump into him," said Chris Dwight, who was visiting from Seattle. "What's the reaction going to be?"
UW-Whitewater sophomore Matt Seefeldt said it would depend on how the person was acting with the weapon. "If he was waving it around I would call, but if it was on his hip, I would still be worried, but I wouldn't freak out that much about it."
"It's not my fault that somebody gets scared by me exercising my rights," said Yates. "I don't know if they're honestly scared. I don't know if they honestly felt like something bad was going to happen."
Yates said he understands if someone calls his actions in, but would like dispatchers or police to ask more questions about why that person is openly carrying a gun before handcuffing and ticketing them with disorderly conduct. He said he spent months studying Wisconsin's gun laws before deciding to make his protest. In fact, he had a copy of them in his pocket to show the responding officer.
Madison city attorney Michael May declined comment on this case at this time.
Yates' court date is set for September. He faces a $429 fine.
TheFederalistWeasel
member
Having Policed in GA for many years as well, I know the same thing will happen in some of the more populated urban areas. Saw many cases in Metro Atlanta during my stay there...
If you are convicted of a crime that you didn't commit, it's worth the money to appeal. Look at the people that plead guilty to a misdemeanor domestic violence charge just to save money... I bet some of them wish they hadn't.
Plus, if you ultimately win, you may be able to file suit against the city or police department to recoup some of the cost.. or just to be vindictive.
But yeah.. most people probably don't have the time and money, or more importantly, care enough to appeal. That's what those judges are expecting...
Plus, if you ultimately win, you may be able to file suit against the city or police department to recoup some of the cost.. or just to be vindictive.
But yeah.. most people probably don't have the time and money, or more importantly, care enough to appeal. That's what those judges are expecting...
Lancel
Member
Expecting criminals to regularly confess to news reporters their tactics and thinking at the moment of attack is unrealistic. Also unrealistic is the idea that there are not plenty of criminals that are skilled at what they do. And like other skilled humans will try to reduce their risk while increasing their gain. That is why weapon retention is a training subject.
If you don't see the logic, then here is a true experience. Some years ago, three bgs confronted me and my girlfriend. One grabbed my right arm to control access to the knife visible on my right side. Fortunately they could not see the Browning HP concealed on my left. If they had seen it, they would have changed the plan of attack to include it.
Larry
Lancel
Member
cook45 said:
There is no tactical advantage in giving this information to the enemy. Once you are made as a non-leo with no backup you become a target of choice. Then you will have other statements to make.
Larry
One problem with open carry on city streets is that it gives away too much information; the statement is that it tells the bgs that you have an object of value, what and where your defense is.
There is no tactical advantage in giving this information to the enemy. Once you are made as a non-leo with no backup you become a target of choice. Then you will have other statements to make.
Larry
razorback2003
Member
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- Aug 24, 2008
- Messages
- 1,231
Open Carry Only When Range/Outdoors TN
I only open carry when going to an from the range and when doing outdoor type activity in Tennessee. I also live in Shelby County. I live in a suburban city that is east of Memphis. The rest of the time i conceal a J frame S&W 642 in a pocket holster for a lot of reasons that I'll tell you.
Tennessee does not have the greatest gun laws in the world. You never know when you may unexpectedly break one. Yes, now you can carry in SOME city/county parks, but it is a huge patchwork of different city/county ordinances. You have to look for specific signs to know if it is illegal. If there is a specific sign...it is a Class A misdemeanor IF caught and convicted. Property owners, including state/local govt, can put up specifically worded signs that make it a $500 fine to carry, IF caught and convicted. School property can be a Class B misdemeanor OR low level Felony (lose gun rights) IF caught and convicted....that's the big one. Go downtown Memphis where UT Med School is and you may or may not know you are on their property...or Vandy in Nashville. Conceal your gun and it is like the 5th Amendment...No one can shake you down to see if you are carrying...thus if you mistakingly carry where it is illegal...like say you miss a sign at a park...well only you and the good Lord know....you've got your 45 strapped on at XYZ Park with the proper signs that you miss walking by b/c you see a pretty girl...and police called and you get a police officer on a power trip.....BAD DAY....or you accidently walk on Vandy property with that openly carried 45...REAL BAD DAY...FELONY charge! If the laws were better, I could say, yeah open carry, but if my permit is worthless in one park but good in another...I think i'll conceal and avoid hassles.
I only open carry when going to an from the range and when doing outdoor type activity in Tennessee. I also live in Shelby County. I live in a suburban city that is east of Memphis. The rest of the time i conceal a J frame S&W 642 in a pocket holster for a lot of reasons that I'll tell you.
Tennessee does not have the greatest gun laws in the world. You never know when you may unexpectedly break one. Yes, now you can carry in SOME city/county parks, but it is a huge patchwork of different city/county ordinances. You have to look for specific signs to know if it is illegal. If there is a specific sign...it is a Class A misdemeanor IF caught and convicted. Property owners, including state/local govt, can put up specifically worded signs that make it a $500 fine to carry, IF caught and convicted. School property can be a Class B misdemeanor OR low level Felony (lose gun rights) IF caught and convicted....that's the big one. Go downtown Memphis where UT Med School is and you may or may not know you are on their property...or Vandy in Nashville. Conceal your gun and it is like the 5th Amendment...No one can shake you down to see if you are carrying...thus if you mistakingly carry where it is illegal...like say you miss a sign at a park...well only you and the good Lord know....you've got your 45 strapped on at XYZ Park with the proper signs that you miss walking by b/c you see a pretty girl...and police called and you get a police officer on a power trip.....BAD DAY....or you accidently walk on Vandy property with that openly carried 45...REAL BAD DAY...FELONY charge! If the laws were better, I could say, yeah open carry, but if my permit is worthless in one park but good in another...I think i'll conceal and avoid hassles.
TheFederalistWeasel
member
Tennessee is slowly becoming a southern model of how not to set gun laws...
NavyLCDR
member
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a mind reader on the board!
Larry,
It could just as easily be said that "If they had seen it (my gun), they would have decided I was too hard a target and moved on to someone who was not armed with a gun." Criminals have their decision points too, and the difference between a knife and a gun may very well be their decision point.
But you cannot make the above statement above as fact because you have no idea what they were thinking.
You have had experiences in your life that cause you to believe that if you open carry criminals will attack you to take your gun or attack you first to eliminate the threat. Many OC'ers have experiences in our lives that lead us to believe that our visible guns have deterred crimes about to be committed.
razorback2003
Member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2008
- Messages
- 1,231
Federalist,
You are correct, we don't have great laws for a Southern state. Alabama has better laws for those with a license because they can truly carry ANYWHERE they want under state law, except protests/picket lines. Schools, restaurants/bars,courthouses(they can only ask you to leave) sporting events...wherever....a license down there actually means something and you don't have to be somewhat concerned of legality because your license keeps you legal everywhere. No worry of being arrested and hauled to jail should your gun be discovered...only asked to take it to the car.
You are correct, we don't have great laws for a Southern state. Alabama has better laws for those with a license because they can truly carry ANYWHERE they want under state law, except protests/picket lines. Schools, restaurants/bars,courthouses(they can only ask you to leave) sporting events...wherever....a license down there actually means something and you don't have to be somewhat concerned of legality because your license keeps you legal everywhere. No worry of being arrested and hauled to jail should your gun be discovered...only asked to take it to the car.
Lancel
Member
Such a statement stinks of arrogant self-conceit and borders on low road.
I was there, you were not. Rather than create thread veer detailing all the results of the encounter, I gave a short version suitable for the topic and internet strangers. My description is accurate.
-------------------------------
razorback2003 made some excellent points. Tennessee passed a new law permitting guns in parks subject to the local government. Even though I live in a military town where most folks are weapon friendly, the city voted to ban guns in parks while the county chose to permit it. Since there is a county park within the city limits, it further complicates things.
Larry
NavyLCDR
member
OK, Larry, I guess you are right. If they had seen your gun they would have taken it from you.
A little history might be beneficial here.
TN used to have a concealed carry permit. Concealed. It was pointed out that the inadvertent exposure of your carry piece could result in an opportunity for a carry-hostile individual causing the citizen carrying to be charged/prosecuted for violating the law and then loosing their carry privileges (when the state grants permission it's a privilege being granted and not a right being guaranteed). It was also pointed out that coming and going from the farm or woodlot could be a problem if concealed carry was the requirement.
A bunch of folks worked very hard to get the law changed to get rid of this onerous possibility, along with a number of other onerous conditions in getting the permit. I don't remember having open carry for it's own sake be the reason.
Consider that OC as a statement needs to be well thought out and considered as an act of activism. If you're going to make this statement plan it out and be sure that you prepare yourself for the inevitable questions and the possibility of interacting with law enforcement officers. I'd recommend having a brief conversation with the chief of police or sheriff and let them know you're only complying with the law and want to be sure they know that you're intent is to make people more aware of the legality of open carry.
TN used to have a concealed carry permit. Concealed. It was pointed out that the inadvertent exposure of your carry piece could result in an opportunity for a carry-hostile individual causing the citizen carrying to be charged/prosecuted for violating the law and then loosing their carry privileges (when the state grants permission it's a privilege being granted and not a right being guaranteed). It was also pointed out that coming and going from the farm or woodlot could be a problem if concealed carry was the requirement.
A bunch of folks worked very hard to get the law changed to get rid of this onerous possibility, along with a number of other onerous conditions in getting the permit. I don't remember having open carry for it's own sake be the reason.
Consider that OC as a statement needs to be well thought out and considered as an act of activism. If you're going to make this statement plan it out and be sure that you prepare yourself for the inevitable questions and the possibility of interacting with law enforcement officers. I'd recommend having a brief conversation with the chief of police or sheriff and let them know you're only complying with the law and want to be sure they know that you're intent is to make people more aware of the legality of open carry.
Lancel
Member
NavyLT said:
Actually their first action was to neutralize weapons to gain the best advantage; in my case it was by grabbing the (wrong) arm where a weapon (knife) was visible. Of the seven other people they assaulted at different locations that night, each was attacked to give the bgs' advantage and remove any threat. And of course, in each confrontation before mine, the bgs took whatever they wanted after gaining control.
Obviously a single event has no statistical relevance. It is simply a factual example that bad guys work to stack the odds in their favor and so should we.
Larry
Actually their first action was to neutralize weapons to gain the best advantage; in my case it was by grabbing the (wrong) arm where a weapon (knife) was visible. Of the seven other people they assaulted at different locations that night, each was attacked to give the bgs' advantage and remove any threat. And of course, in each confrontation before mine, the bgs took whatever they wanted after gaining control.
Obviously a single event has no statistical relevance. It is simply a factual example that bad guys work to stack the odds in their favor and so should we.
Larry
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