Open Carry in TN
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TheFederalistWeasel said:
Every time I open carry I hope a cop arrests me. I'm going to make some money off the City he works for. The Attorney General issued an opinion concerning open carry years ago.
S T A T E O F T E N N E S S E E
OFFICE OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
PO BOX 20207
NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE 37202
October 11, 2005
Opinion No. 05-154
Civilian Handgun Permits
QUESTIONS
1. Does Tennessee law require that individuals who have been issued civilian handgun
permits under Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1351 carry the handgun(s) concealed?
2. If Tennessee law does not require concealment of a handgun by a civilian handgun
permit holder, may a law enforcement officer legally arrest an individual for carrying a handgun openly in Tennessee if the individual is not carrying it in a prohibited location (e.g., courtroom)?
OPINIONS
1. No. Neither Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1351, nor any other statute governing the
carrying of firearms, requires the holder of a handgun carry permit to carry the handgun in a concealed manner.
2. Yes. A handgun carry permit holder may be arrested for carrying a handgun openly
if he or she is using the handgun to commit a crime, or is otherwise engaged in criminal activity while carrying the handgun.
Open carry for the purpose of defense is a legitimate activity, not criminal activity.
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Lancel
Member
kwikrnu said
No, I did not lose control of my pistol; [because] it was concealed before I drew it. Almost lost my knife for a couple of seconds though.
Larry
No, I did not lose control of my pistol; [because] it was concealed before I drew it. Almost lost my knife for a couple of seconds though.
Larry
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leadcounsel
member
Prime reason to carry concealed is for self-defense, the element of surprise, and the element that the bad guys don't KNOW who's carrying.
Showing your cards - you lose the element of surprise. Guess who gets poped or disarmed first at gunpoint before he can react, and executed first if necessary? The armed or previously armed dude.
Showing your cards - you lose the element of surprise. Guess who gets poped or disarmed first at gunpoint before he can react, and executed first if necessary? The armed or previously armed dude.
The discussion of open carry having a self defense advantage or disadvantage is better carried out in the S&T forum. The back and forth on this isn't even a legal question and no one's opinion is going to be changed here. There's no statistically valid data being cited and there's unlikely to be any to cite.
DeepSouth
Random Guy
Best advice yet.
I have some tri-fold pamphlets that reference the legality of OC in our state. It refers to the state Constitution, official statements from the Attorney General, and several court cases. I always carry a few with me any time I OC in case I get questioned by a LEO or a curious civilian asking if that is legal.
If you could find (or make) such a pamphlet it could be very useful.
I used to open carry when I lived in TN, occasionally. The only trouble I ever had was with a Blockbuster employee who started yelling at me about scaring children and how if I'm not a cop I have no reason to carry that gun. She was disciplined by her manager who apologized to me.
Carry open if you can, it's the only way to acclimate society to the idea of citizens being armed.
Carry open if you can, it's the only way to acclimate society to the idea of citizens being armed.
That, of course, proves beyond any doubt that such a thing has never happened.
It proves conclusively that the advice to not carry openly to avoid such risks that is set forth in the state-maintained Kentucky Concealed Carry Manual is not necessary.
Doesn't it?
Common sense tells me that the best way to have something of value taken by a criminal is to advertise that one has it. One good way to do so is to wear it openly and to then to be not wearing it when leaving a parked car to go into a Post Office.
Of course, one may have never read that a gun is something that some people would like to steal or obtain via robbery.
I have never read about GPS devices being taken by cars that were unattended for a minute or two, but I know of actual instances.
I know of a gun being taken from a car recently. The police report simply said "property crime--second degree."
There seem to be a lot of people who have come to believe that if they cannot find an account about something on the internet, it didn't happen. The fact that one cannot find information does not mean that the facts do not exist.
22-rimfire
Member
I'm not an LEO, but I understand that one of the big issues with police carry is training against a perp or potential perp gaining access to the weapon and potentially using that weapon against the policeman. There is no fool proof carry method which is why years ago the smart gun idea was researched by the gun companies. They found it to be expensive and impractical as I understand it.
Holster design is important, the habits of the officer, as well as situational awareness of the policeman. They train for this. My personal guess is that there aren't many folks that open carry who are not LEO that are trained in the retention of their weapon should an encounter occur. There was a well publicized case in my area where a female officer was killed by a perp using her own firearm.
As HSO explained, the purpose of the language in the law concerning OC is to prevent permit holders from being charged and convicted if their weapon becomes visible. A good example is "printing". It was not really intended to allow permit holders to OC.
If I OC'd in town, I fully expect to be charged with disorderly conduct the first time some woman freaks out because they saw my weapon when I was standing in line at McDonalds.
Holster design is important, the habits of the officer, as well as situational awareness of the policeman. They train for this. My personal guess is that there aren't many folks that open carry who are not LEO that are trained in the retention of their weapon should an encounter occur. There was a well publicized case in my area where a female officer was killed by a perp using her own firearm.
As HSO explained, the purpose of the language in the law concerning OC is to prevent permit holders from being charged and convicted if their weapon becomes visible. A good example is "printing". It was not really intended to allow permit holders to OC.
If I OC'd in town, I fully expect to be charged with disorderly conduct the first time some woman freaks out because they saw my weapon when I was standing in line at McDonalds.
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Cops are consistantly around the bad element. Cops take away their freedom. Some "perps" even want to hurt cops. Since regular citizens do not, there is almost no risk of a gun grab happening to them. This is why there are no news reports of bad guys attacking "regular Joe" open carriers to take their handgun.
The purpose of open carry language is not to prevent someone who prints from being charged. If it were they would have wrote the law differently. Open carry is legal because they wanted open carry.
I'm sorry to hear you expect to be charged with a crime when you didn't commit one.
The purpose of open carry language is not to prevent someone who prints from being charged. If it were they would have wrote the law differently. Open carry is legal because they wanted open carry.
I'm sorry to hear you expect to be charged with a crime when you didn't commit one.
22-rimfire
Member
Kwikrnu, I disagree with you. I don't plan on being charged and I don't have the resources to fight the charge should it ever happen.
They are not going to charge you with open carry. There is usually more than one way to "skin a cat". If the cities are so infavor of carry, why have so many opted out of the legal in parks carry option relative to the new law in TN?
They are not going to charge you with open carry. There is usually more than one way to "skin a cat". If the cities are so infavor of carry, why have so many opted out of the legal in parks carry option relative to the new law in TN?
LibShooter
Member
I live in Tennessee and when I carry, it's concealed. But the best thing about this state's law is that I don't have to paranoid about "printing."
In jeans, my J-frame in a pocket holster shows just a little bit of grip. That's not enough to set off a Blockbuster clerk and it's never been an issue here.
In jeans, my J-frame in a pocket holster shows just a little bit of grip. That's not enough to set off a Blockbuster clerk and it's never been an issue here.
22-rimfire said:
You may disagree, it doesn't mean you are correct.
State law trumpts local ordinances. So, I may open carry on any public street in the State regardless of what anyone thinks. If so many cities and counties are worried about park carry why have they not posted their parks in accordance with law?
I would be interested in knowing how many open carry advocates have actually participated in the kind of weapons retention training that our police officers go through where I live.
Now, a uniformed LEO is probably not a very inviting target for two or three desperate crooks looking to grab a gun--there's his training, contact weapons, the real possibility that he is not alone, his ability to call on the whole darn force and every department for miles around--but he does have to undergo the training. And at first they often fail.
And every one of them is in better condition than I am.
Perhaps the average person who thinks that his being openly armed in a rough urban environment does not place him at risk--or that he is equipped and trained to handle the risk--is living in fantasyland.
A thinking person would not even consider wearing a Rolex in some neighborhoods. One would not display large jewels. Why? Think about it. Now, that engraved Browning Hi-Power, while it just might deter some lone perps who have a small appetite for risk, would net several times the proceeds of the Rolex, and it could also help equip the perps for their gang wars. I suggest that the run of the mill Walter Mitty wouldn't keep it long in the city adjacent to where I live.
Where Elmer Keith grew up? Different story.
Now, a uniformed LEO is probably not a very inviting target for two or three desperate crooks looking to grab a gun--there's his training, contact weapons, the real possibility that he is not alone, his ability to call on the whole darn force and every department for miles around--but he does have to undergo the training. And at first they often fail.
And every one of them is in better condition than I am.
Perhaps the average person who thinks that his being openly armed in a rough urban environment does not place him at risk--or that he is equipped and trained to handle the risk--is living in fantasyland.
A thinking person would not even consider wearing a Rolex in some neighborhoods. One would not display large jewels. Why? Think about it. Now, that engraved Browning Hi-Power, while it just might deter some lone perps who have a small appetite for risk, would net several times the proceeds of the Rolex, and it could also help equip the perps for their gang wars. I suggest that the run of the mill Walter Mitty wouldn't keep it long in the city adjacent to where I live.
Where Elmer Keith grew up? Different story.
Had you said, "I have not found any news stories in which there was any indication that a regular Joe who was assaulted had been open carrying a firearm," that might be true. But it would also be completely meaningless.
To conclude from that that there have been no such stories is a real stretch, not supportable by any means. And even the absence of news stories with sufficient detail would mean nothing. How many incidents with which you have been personally familiar have been covered in the news? How complete was the coverage? How accurate? How many of the stories have been placed into a medium in which someone would be able to find them, even by "looking for years?"
There are a little under a million aggravated assaults reported in the United States every year.
I do not know how many of them have been covered in news stories. Do you? I do not know how many of the news stories have contained sufficient detail to provide an understanding of the circumstances. Do you? How many are where you can find them? What can you find out about the circumstances?
Pro-gun police officers I know well tell me that there is no way they would ever carry openly while off duty, due to the risk involved. A forensics instructor with whom I shoot says it would be foolhardy.
Do they have actual information that you do not have? Probably, but it doesn't matter that much. It really boils down to plain common sense.
Advertise and they will come. Want to display on your person something that a crook would really, really like to have? Something that three really bad wanted persons under the influence of methamphetamine or crack cocaine might desperately need? Might as well paint a target on your back. Why in the world would anyone think otherwise?
And by the way--the attack will not come from the front.
Yep. But not to get their guns!
What's the basis of that assertion?
Why? You have made the assertion; the burden of proof is yours.
Maybe. And because you haven't seen them, you conclude that there are not, and even that the incidents have never occurred.
Recently someone unable to find relevant accounts on the web concluded that citizens with clean records are never charged with homicide in their homes!(?)! Equally preposterous.
Use a little common sense.
And by the way--is an 'ordinary Joe", or are "regular people" less or more likely than police officers to be assaulted for the purpose of getting a gun? Why? Do you think a perp trying to get a gun would somehow be deterred by the weapon on the belt of a civilian, but not by the weapons, cuffs, and radio carried by a trained officer?
We recently had a uniformed policeman gunned down because the perp needed a higher capacity weapon, which he than used in a mass murder in a gun free zone.
In fairness, most high crime areas are in jurisdictions that do not permit open carry anyway, so the stats will not show a really high incicence of assault.
But change the law and watch that change.
If a couple or three thugs want my wallet, I may have to defend myself. But at least I will not have (1) advertised to them that I also have for the taking one of the most easily fenced and useful items they could possibly hope for, and (2) let them know that their only strategy is to take me out first.
NavyLCDR
member
kwikrnu said:
There isn't any.
NavyLCDR
member
kwikrnu said:
I wouldn't say that concealed carry gets you assaulted... I would just say that concealed carry is no deterrent to the criminal, because the person concealed carrying looks like just as easy target as the next guy who is not carrying at all.
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