Open carry simply says leave me alone I don't want to be involved!

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One aspect of concealed carry I *don't* care for is that outer garments can severely slow down draw and presentation...and screw both up pretty badly. Yes, we should all train for that, but I know I don't. As for how folks respond to others carrying openly, it actually gives me a more positive feeling to see others carry than a negative one. But then, I assume anyone openly carrying is most probably a 'good guy'. Probably a stupid assumption.
I fully support the OP's choice, just want to be clear on that.

Overall, I think we all have our own 'probable scenarios' floating around in our heads, and I imagine they are all equally unlikely as the scenarios we'll have to actually face. "What is the situation right now and what will it be in a few minutes?" is probably going to provide the best answer to what we should be doing at any given moment, as opposed to any general rules.
 
Wanderling said:
Not a valid comparison.

A home alarm system doesn’t advertise exactly what it is you’re trying to protect, and many people are installing them for personal protection while they are in the house, not necessarily because they have anything really valuable. It is there to keep meth heads away, not dedicated burglars.

Now, put a safe in a window in your house that says “guns and diamonds inside”, right under your security company’s logo, and see how well that alarm really works...
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Huh? How does OC'ing a firearm say exactly what you're trying to protect other than your personal safety? Burglaries usually break in without knowing if there are or aren't anything of high value ahead of time. They simply break in to see what they can get.

Either way, you're using a straw man argument. The original premise I responded to was that open carry says to others "C'mon, just try me!" As if the person who is basically advertising that he has personal security is taunting and daring people to attack. Using that same logic, posting a home security sign outside of your home or businesses posting advertising that they have cctv camera are also puffing out there chest daring people try and rob them.
 
frogfurr said:
Open carry in Ohio has been legal for many decades. I have never seen anyone open carry in Ohio.
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Open carry has been legal here in WA since statehood. I rarely see it. I've run into a few hiking in the backcountry, do it myself, but in the populated areas it's non-existent.
 
I'm thankful for the right to be able to open carry. That being said I never do. When you open carry I feel like you put a target on your back for potential criminals. If a criminal is determined to commit a crime and they see that you are armed i'm sure they'll look to eliminate you as a threat first. I feel much better carrying concealed that way you can defend yourself without becoming a target.
 
Open carry says different things depending on the context. In many contexts, it says quite a bit more than "leave me alone." When dealing with all communication, but especially non-verbal communication, you have to remember that there are at least two minds involved: 1) that of the speaker/communicator who may (or, with non-verbal stuff, may not) have some sort of "intent" as to what they mean; and 2) the listener/recipient, whose interpretation of the communication will depend upon their own experience and education.

With something as highly emotionally charged, and as practically/physically significant, and as non-verbal as open carry, there is literally no true and complete statement as to what open carry "simply says." One may wish for it to say only one thing, but it will always say different things to different people... and it will say different things to the same person in different contexts. Now, one can decide that one doesn't care about all the various intents and character traits that will be ascribed by all the various people that will come into contact with one while OC'ing, but no amount of intent or well-reasoned rationale is going to change the fact that those intents and traits will be ascribed. One may or may not consider that to be significant.
 
About the retention skills and holster crowd - that is all well and good. However, it assumes that if someone wants your gun they will start an explicit wrestling match with you - like an old Western Gun Fight. Well, pardner - I'm here to take your gun. 30% of police who are shot, are shot with their own gun. We had a SWAT officer here killed in an on the ground wrestling match with a burglar he was trying to arrest. I'm sure most OC folks have his skill level.

If someone wants to take your gun - they don't have to start with the gun grab. They might but a gang kid might just close on you and stab your repeatedly. Remember all the time it takes to draw and respond to a knife. Those figures assume you have seen the attack start. The retention holster without lots of practice is even slower.

I told someone I could take away his OC gun. HOW! I would shoot you in the back.

OC - would you do it in a crowded urban subway? Nice to walk around in some small town or WalMart.

I will be blunt, except for some special circumstances, I just see posturing as the main reason in most environments. I've OC when hunting. Not too many attacks by turkey and white tail. I was worried about the porcupine. He looked shifty.
 
Bongo Boy said:
I fully support the OP's choice, just want to be clear on that.

Overall, I think we all have our own 'probable scenarios' floating around in our heads, and I imagine they are all equally unlikely as the scenarios we'll have to actually face.
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^^^This.

Whether one is CWC or OC, the first line of defense we have is awareness as to what is going on around us. Kinda hard for someone to come up and take a secured gun from us or get their bead on us first, if we are really aware of what is going on around us. If you're the first one targeted to be shot in a scenario where having a handgun on you might save you or those around you, it's gonna be because you got complacent. As for OC guns being a target for theft, how are they any different than a women's wedding/engagement ring? Or those $800 phones we see so many people's faces stuck in? People always said the same thing about Custom Harley's......"you're just asking for it to be stolen!". Those folks just foolishly making themselves victims too? Folks are quick to envision scenarios they deem appropriate for their mindset. Whether you strap your firearm on outside or inside your clothes, it's take some good forethought and an evaluation of your abilities, needs and circumstances. Folks here chastising the OP for his choice, need to walk a while in his shoes(pun intended). If he is doing what he feels most comfortable with, is most confident with and is most proficient with, who are we to look down our noses at him? Or anyone else who thinks differently?

Concealed Carry has only been legal here for 7 years. Open Carry has been legal as long as I remember. So for the longest time, iffin you wanted to take your handgun along for protection, there was only one legal way to do it. Back then, not many folks OC'd, but it didn't create any more crime. Same can be said for today. While the majority of folks now legally CWC, a few folks still OC and it hasn't been shown to increase crime, nor create mass hysteria. I have been CWCing since it became legal. My CWC permit number only has 4 digits. Still, there are times when I prefer to OC and do so without fear of crackheads slipping up behind me and taking my gun.

Yes, there are those that OC just to flaunt their firearm. Just like there are those that while they CWC, feel the need to wear obvious tactical clothing while doing it. IMHO, not much of a difference. They key should be not how one carries, but that they do it safely, responsibly and with awareness to what's going on around them.
 
Sovblocgunfan said:
“OC=target” bandwagon here. At a minimum it would cause unwanted attention from police.
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I don't really understand why open carry would cause more attention from the police. To my way of thinking an open carrier is being up front about the fact they are carrying a gun. If I were a police officer I would probably pay less attention to them unless there was something else going on to attract my attention. If one is carrying a gun out in the open for all the world to see odds are they know they are legal & doing nothing wrong.
 
Mike J said:
I don't really understand why open carry would cause more attention from the police. To my way of thinking an open carrier is being up front about the fact they are carrying a gun. If I were a police officer I would probably pay less attention to them unless there was something else going on to attract my attention. If one is carrying a gun out in the open for all the world to see odds are they know they are legal & doing nothing wrong.
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Negative. They do not know any such thing. They only know what they see until further investigation allows a different assessment.

And if I am OC’ing in a place where something bad just happened, a police officer is going to want to understand who I am and why I have a gun in a place where something bad just happened. Quite possibly that means being disarmed and questioned until I am deemed “not a threat”.

Further, whether you have a LTC or not, you may subject yourself to harrassment for the simple idea that police have a job to do, and you appear (at first notice) to be someone who may require some due diligence, whether you are in a place where something happened or not.
 
Every time this topic comes up I see a lot of very general comments about the wisdom of this strategy or that one.

Every situation is different and every perpetrator may be a bit different too. Open carry may make you a target or may give you the advantage of surprise. It's kind of impossible to know which it's going to be.

I work with a law enforcement officer and have discussed this with him. He has shared that time and again, violent criminals who are captured and had a choice of targets almost invariably choose the apparent softer target. He's done his research from my perspective. I also took a CCW class geared towards obtaining a non-resident permit from Utah. The instructor was a lawyer who specialized in cases involving firearm laws and criminal cases involving firearm related crime. He reflected the same sentiments and had heard testimony directly from suspects he was prosecuting that reflected the same. Granted, both examples are limited samples.

Personally I feel OC is fine in a lot of situations and may make you less of a target. However it may not be appropriate all the time.

In the end, both are gambles so pick what's right for you.
 
Read the article I posted on bad incidents for OC people? When you look at criminals, you get somr economically motivated crimes. The victim selection literature is clear that they look for weaker victims. However, if we look at folks who have different motivations or regard the OC person as a poser - that might be different as Greg points out. Since he is a LEO that has a good handle on this and since I don't know any nationally recognized competent trainer that thinks it's a good idea, I'll go with that.

The few OC types I've seen around here are laughable.
 
GEM said:
Read the article I posted on bad incidents for OC people? When you look at criminals, you get somr economically motivated crimes. The victim selection literature is clear that they look for weaker victims. However, if we look at folks who have different motivations or regard the OC person as a poser - that might be different as Greg points out. Since he is a LEO that has a good handle on this and since I don't know any nationally recognized competent trainer that thinks it's a good idea, I'll go with that.

The few OC types I've seen around here are laughable.
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Yes and the points he covered are good ones. Understand I'm not advocating open carrying all the time. I carry concealed about 95% of the time, and almost always when I plan to be around other people. Occasionally I'll carry a revolver in a pancake holster in a local store if I'm on the way back from the woods. It's no one's business what I do or don't have on my person, and the articles linked in the article you linked definitely demonstrates that open carry can get you into trouble.

I live in a very rural, low crime, and low to no gang activity area. When I open carry I typically do so in the woods because I'd rather carry a full size and easier to shoot gun, and I do have a concern about coming across tweakers or grow operations. So more firepower is good even with reduced chances of problems.

The author you linked did find some examples where open carrying got that person into trouble, but I can't help but wonder how many people were not targeted as a result of open carry, and how little summary data there is to reflect that. And why would there be a lot of summary data or articles to reflect it? It's not like criminals are just volunteering their decision making process. Some talk, and some don't.

In any case, all I was saying is people need to make their own choices and consider carefully their situation. I think OC is viable in some cases. Personally I don't agree with the OP given his circumstances, but that's fine.
 
GEM said:
About the retention skills and holster crowd - that is all well and good. However, it assumes that if someone wants your gun they will start an explicit wrestling match with you - like an old Western Gun Fight. Well, pardner - I'm here to take your gun. 30% of police who are shot, are shot with their own gun. We had a SWAT officer here killed in an on the ground wrestling match with a burglar he was trying to arrest. I'm sure most OC folks have his skill level.

If someone wants to take your gun - they don't have to start with the gun grab. They might but a gang kid might just close on you and stab your repeatedly. Remember all the time it takes to draw and respond to a knife. Those figures assume you have seen the attack start. The retention holster without lots of practice is even slower.

I told someone I could take away his OC gun. HOW! I would shoot you in the back.

OC - would you do it in a crowded urban subway? Nice to walk around in some small town or WalMart.

I will be blunt, except for some special circumstances, I just see posturing as the main reason in most environments. I've OC when hunting. Not too many attacks by turkey and white tail. I was worried about the porcupine. He looked shifty.
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Or just walk up with a baseball bat and swing away.

https://www.alloutdoor.com/2015/04/21/open-carrier-attacked-wal-mart-carry-openly/

... a Yakima father was attacked while shopping with three children in Wal-Mart while openly carrying a pistol.

The victim, Brandon Walker, was attacked by a “disheveled” man who, after making eye contact with him several times, pulled a metal baseball bat from a rack and swung it hard at Walker’s head.

Walker stepped towards his attacker, leading with his shoulder to deflect the blow. He then stepped away from the bat man, drew his pistol and chambered a round, then told the bad guy to get down onto the floor. He complied.

Store employees helped contain the assailant until police arrived to arrest him, reportedly charging him with second degree assault (felony, max penalty ten years prison and $20,000 fine).

The attacker, who had been arrested before, said very little and never revealed his intentions in attacking Walker. Walker believes that the guy had to be coming after him to he could steal the gun, a Sig Sauer Model P226 in 357 Sig.

Bearing Arms reported that, in a phone interview, Walker stated that he would only carry concealed from now on.
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OC and unchambered seems not a plan. If Baseball had unleashed repeated blows, you are not chambering.

Also, I see many folks saying that they OC in low risk areas. So that says - what? Would you open carry in a crowded urban subway?
 
GEM said:
Also, I see many folks saying that they OC in low risk areas. So that says - what? Would you open carry in a crowded urban subway?
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Certainly not. Obviously in a crowded situation the chance of someone snatching your gun without you even noticing goes way up. You likely would have no idea who even took it.

I think it alludes to open carriers being more inclined to open carry in situations where fewer distractions exist that can limit their situational awareness, and thereby their chance of being disarmed or attacked by surprise are less likely.
 
GEM said:
Also, I see many folks saying that they OC in low risk areas. So that says - what? Would you open carry in a crowded urban subway?
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460Shooter said:
Certainly not. Obviously in a crowded situation the chance of someone snatching your gun without you even noticing goes way up. You likely would have no idea who even took it.

I think it alludes to open carriers being more inclined to open carry in situations where fewer distractions exist that can limit their situational awareness, and thereby their chance of being disarmed or attacked by surprise are less likely.
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^^^This.
'ell, I never even been on a subway, and don't ever intend to. Why would I concern myself with OCing on one? Would I if I had the chance? I dunno, I don't know if there is legal OC in areas where subways run, I do know, that my CWC license does not have reciprocity with any states that have subways. So I guess I don't have to concern myself with legal CWC either..........:uhoh:
 
AlexanderA said:
When you are open carrying it means that the robber will shoot you with his gun rather than just threatening you with his gun. Why give up your element of surprise when the robber certainly won't give up his element of surprise?
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Can you provide any references of this having actually happened? An armed civilian being selectively and pre-emptively targeted by an assailant?
 
Can you provide any references of this having actually happened? An armed civilian being selectively and pre-emptively targeted by an assailant?
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How about the reverse? Here's an incident in which a person clearly bent on a multiple shooting was thwarted (shot multiple times) by a person with a concealed handgun who would have certainly been disarmed or killed, or forced to act immediately rather than waiting for an opportune moment, had the handgun NOT been concealed.

Conveniently enough, we have to look no farther than THR for a personal account of the incident in question.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/any-real-life-encounters.60164/page-2#post-753691

Not that it proves anything that was really in doubt. It doesn't require any great stretch of logic to realize that a person who is absolutely bent on mayhem will remove obvious obstacles in his/her path.
An armed civilian being selectively and pre-emptively targeted by an assailant?
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And, although this isn't exactly what you meant, there are certainly a number of documented situations where openly armed civilians have been selectively targeted by an assailant with the intent of stealing their carry weapon.
https://bearingarms.com/tom-k/2017/12/26/open-carry-firearm-stolen-north-carolina-walmart/
https://www.vocativ.com/underworld/crime/open-carry-states/index.html
https://www.dailypress.com/news/crime/dp-man-open-carry-gun-hip-robbed-newport-news-story.html
http://www.annarbor.com/news/crime/unarmed-man-attempts-to-rob-emu-student-carrying-holstered-gun/
https://www.azcentral.com/story/new...eals-gun-man-line-phoenix-mcdonalds/83782130/
http://www.cityofmadison.com/police/newsroom/incidentreports/incident.cfm?id=23314

I'm sure that open carry says: "Leave me alone!" to some criminals. To others, it is clear that it says: "I have a gun you might like, come and try to take it!"
 
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