The Open Carry Argument

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

I don't know when I'll need my firearm so I carry it with me in case I do find a need for it..

Just like a seatbelt. Odds are you will only need it once in your life. Since you don't know WHEN you wear it ALWAYS.

Someone asked me once (half joking) why I carry. Was I looking for a fight?

I said "Why did you wear you seatbelt? Were you looking for a car crash?"

 

[Zip7]

Odds are you will only need it once in your life. Since you don't know WHEN you wear it ALWAYS

By that logic, why not wear body armor everywhere, all the time. It is possible some madman with a gun could get the drop on you. The DC sniper for example.

My point is, that going to Walgreens unarmed is - for me - an acceptable risk. I'm sure it's possible I could get shot, but I've never heard of any sort of crime being committed at my neighborhood Walgreens, and while I am sure there are Walgreens stores in neighborhoods where you'd stand a better chance of coming to personal harm, mine ain't one.

When you think of the millions of people who go in and out of Walgreens stores unarmed every day - versus how many have found themselves in a situation there where a gun was the only way out... well, being uncomfortable going in your average Walgreens store unarmed is bordering on paranoia.

I'll venture that if carrying a gun is truly as necessary as wearing pants where you live then there is an underlying problem there that needs addressing. It is a free country, and no one is totally obligated to forever live in a place where criminals are trying to do you in all the time.

I believe wholeheartedly in the RKBA, but I would rather not live in such fear for my life that I felt I needed to carry every single place I go. Perhaps that is cavalier, but I'm sure I will die someday anyway, and however careful you are, you all will too.

 

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

I believe wholeheartedly in the RKBA, but I would rather not live in such fear for my life that I felt I needed to carry every single place I go. Perhaps that is cavalier, but I'm sure I will die someday anyway, and however careful you are, you all will too.

Agreed. It is your personal decision. Nothing wrong there. Some people would use same argument and say "I would not rather live in such fear for my life that I feel I NEED to wear a seat belt everywhere I go" or "I would rather no live in such fear that I need to lock my doors".

Most people that carry everyday don't live in fear. Instead being prepared gives them a sense of peace. That being said nobody is saying you SHOULD or MUST carry (either concealed or openly).

As long as your views remain PERSONAL I have no problem. Hell if you want to sell all your guns I have no problem with that either. If you start an "anti carry movement", or attempt to lobby to restrict guns to peoples houses because it is "what makes sense for you" that is where it becomes an issue for me.

 

[JesseL]

By that logic, why not wear body armor everywhere, all the time. It is possible some madman with a gun could get the drop on you. The DC sniper for example.

We all have to draw our line for what constitutes a reasonable tradeoff between preparedness and inconvenience/discomfort.

For me and many others here, carrying a sidearm everywhere isn't a big enough inconvenience that we'll forgo it - especially when you consider the fact that though the odds of needing it are low, the stakes are very high.

I don't live in a particularly dangerous area (if I did, I'd move) and it seems unlikely that I'll ever need to use my pistol in self defense, but my life (and the lives of my family!) are important enough that I'll put up with a little extra weight on my hip for the added insurance it provides.

 

[Zip7]

As long as your views remain PERSONAL I have no problem. Hell if you want to sell all your guns I have no problem with that either. If you start an "anti carry movement", or attempt to lobby to restrict guns to peoples houses because it is "what makes sense for you" that is where it becomes an issue for me.

I'm certainly not anti-carry. I will carry myself if the situation warrants it, and always have one in my vehicle. But I have personally met people who do carry all the time whose life experience is not sufficient for them to be able to judge when use of a firearm is truly called for. Do I want their right to carry to be taken away? No, but they make me a little uncomfortable nonetheless.

Just like the thread about the shooting in a Wal Mart parking lot on here - that should have been a shoving match or a fistfight at the most. Situation didn't warrant use of a gun by either party, but both parties mistakenly thought it did. I'd rather not be in the parking lot with people of that mindset, however much I believe it is their right to be armed.

 

[Intune]

I will carry myself if the situation warrants it, and always have one in my vehicle.

If I know beforehand of a "situation" that "warrants" the need to be armed, I'm not going. No way. No how.

Why do you leave it in your vehicle? My vehicle could potentially be a huge, devastating weapon. I carry my puny pistol when I have to walk away from my Suburban Assault Vehicle.

I'd rather not be in the parking lot with people of that mindset, however much I believe it is their right to be armed.

I don't know the "mindset" of anyone around me in a public place. That is precisely why I choose to arm myself.

 

[deaconkharma]

Whatever "keep and BEAR ARMS" means

Simplistic, but just carry how you like. CCW/CWP this is another silly intrusion of government to generate revenue. As far as I am concrned carry how you wish. Me, I'm a concealed type of guy, for reasons mentioned, but how the heck is it my business what you're comfortable with? We are getting WAAAAYY to granular with laws these days. I personally say if one is to err, err on the side of personal liberty and personal freedom. I'm not always popular with either of the mainstream parties, but then again neither would the founding fathers be.
Carry how you want should be the way to go. Let the criminals do the guessing and worrying about it.

 

[Zip7]

If I know beforehand of a "situation" that "warrants" the need to be armed, I'm not going. No way. No how.

Ok.

I don't know the "mindset" of anyone around me in a public place. That is precisely why I choose to arm myself.

So either you don't go out in public at all... or you go armed, therefore you must believe going out in public is a situation that warrants arming yourself?

99.9% of the "public" I come in contact with are fairly harmless people - it's been my experience. I do go out in public every day.

To me, the situation that warrants it is when I have to go into the city for something (I don't live in a big city, but live fairly close to one).

I can totally understand how you might feel differently than me if you DO live in a big city with lots of crime all around.. I should make it clear that I don't, and that obviously affects my views on the subject.

 

[poor_richard]

When you think of the millions of people who go in and out of Walgreens stores unarmed every day - versus how many have found themselves in a situation there where a gun was the only way out... well, being uncomfortable going in your average Walgreens store unarmed is bordering on paranoia..

When you think of the millions of people who drive cars on public roadways every day without getting into an accident- versus that number that do get into accidents… well, being uncomfortable in not wearing a safety belt is bordering on paranoia.​

When you think of the millions of home owners and renters who go through their lives without every suffering any loss due to fire, theft, lightning, etc- versus how many have actually needed to make such claims on their insurance policy… well, getting home owners/renters insurance is bordering on paranoia.​

When you think about how many people legally carry a gun (daily) because they are paranoid- versus those who carry one without any fear, but view it as no different than wearing a safety belt… well, being uncomfortable going in you average Walgreens store armed, for fear of feeling paranoid is bordering on paranoia.​

I believe wholeheartedly in the RKBA, but I would rather not live in such fear for my life that I felt I needed to carry every single place I go.

If that’s why you carry or keep guns, then you might think about what drives those fears.Some fears can be rational, some not so rational. Some healthy, some not so healthy. Just because "fear" is the driving reason you would chose to carry a gun, doesn't mean it is the same for others.

Perhaps that is cavalier, but I'm sure I will die someday anyway, and however careful you are, you all will too.

Me thinks you are less cavalier than you try to convey.

Just like the thread about the shooting in a Wal Mart parking lot on here - that should have been a shoving match or a fistfight at the most. Situation didn't warrant use of a gun by either party, but both parties mistakenly thought it did. I'd rather not be in the parking lot with people of that mindset, however much I believe it is their right to be armed.

Like it or not, you are around people with that mindset, and you simply have little choice in the matter unless you choose to remain at home, and even then it isn’t a guarantee.


I’d venture to say that most people who are legally licensed to carry a gun concealed would agree that that situation didn’t warrant the use of a gun by at least one party. Most of them probably wouldn’t have something like that happen to themselves because they understand that having a license to carry concealed means they don’t get to participate in such activity. I’d even go so far as to say that most of those who legally carry wouldn’t even believe that such a situation would rate nothing more that a “walk away”, and probably not even that.

Comparing the Wal Mart incident with legal gun owners/carriers demonstrates a lack of rational thought processing. No disrespect intended, but your comparing the illegal actions of someone who is carrying illegally, to the mindset of those who strive to stay within the bounds of the law. It’s similar to believing that only criminals and cops would want guns.

 

[Old Navy]

Just my two cents.

You make some very good points but I'm not sure you are being realistic. I really believe that 90% of all business owners would have a problem with people walking around OC'ing. Where I live all a business owner has to do is post the appropriate sign and even concealed carry becomes a crime. I personally don't care if open carry became legal, but all anyone has to do if they want is to call 911 and say you're brandishing a gun. The cops WILL come and since you have one on display it is questionable whether they'll believe you or the other person.

ALWAYS CARRY, NEVER TELL!

 

[JesseL]

You make some very good points but I'm not sure you are being realistic. I really believe that 90% of all business owners would have a problem with people walking around OC'ing. Where I live all a business owner has to do is post the appropriate sign and even concealed carry becomes a crime. I personally don't care if open carry became legal, but all anyone has to do if they want is to call 911 and say you're brandishing a gun. The cops WILL come and since you have one on display it is questionable whether they'll believe you or the other person.

ALWAYS CARRY, NEVER TELL!

You can believe what you like, but my real world experience certainly hasn't been consistent with you speculation.

I've said it before, but I've still never had a business owner express any problem with me open carrying and I've still never had any police interaction regarding me open carrying.

 

[Zip7]

When you think of the millions of people who drive cars on public roadways every day without getting into an accident- versus that number that do get into accidents… well, being uncomfortable in not wearing a safety belt is bordering on paranoia.

That's a fair argument unless you factor in the real probability of being involved in an automobile accident vs. the real probability of being involved in a situation where you need to defend yourself with a gun.

I've lived where I do for 10 years. I spent most of it commuting daily 80 miles round trip into a city notorious for gun violence. I passed the scene of a shooting ONCE. It was a robbery of a convenience store, and the cops had fired something like 66 shots at the perp who had gotten away. I passed the store in the morning about 2 hours after it happened. I stopped at that store every other afternoon too.

In contrast, every DAY I see at least one or more auto accidents around here.

So if once in ten years that I've seen a gun related crime scene at a place I normally go, and every single day I see at least one auto accident, do you think I feel like I need to open carry "just in case?" I don't really. I do wear a seatbelt though, one has saved my life before, and I grew up in an era when people commonly didn't wear them, and it wasn't against the law not to.

I'm not trying to make myself sound cavalier, but that is the way I feel. Your mileage may vary. I haven't lived a sheltered life, I've been many places - many very rough places, the bad parts of many cities, and in many of those places where I would have felt much more comfortable packing. So I do see your side too.

In fact, I don't wish to change your mind about anything. I believe in your right to carry as much as you do. What I'm trying to say is that for ME to open carry in my daily travels as "insurance" would be statistically ridiculous. The hassle would much outweigh the benefit.

 

[jrfoxx]

I have a simple solution for those who dont like to open carry, or who dont think you need a gun in certain places. Dont open carry, and feel free not to carry a gun any place you chose not to.It's that simple. Dont like it? dont do it. No one is forcing you to OC, or carry in Walgreen's or the library if you dont want to do, so dont force the rest of us to do or not do something either.

There, problem solved.

 

[poor_richard]

...What I'm trying to say is that for ME to open carry in my daily travels as "insurance" would be statistically ridiculous. ...

Nice that you clarified that, because it certainly wasn’t worded quite that clearly when you said,

...being uncomfortable going in your average Walgreens store unarmed is bordering on paranoia.
...

and,

...I believe wholeheartedly in the RKBA, but I would rather not live in such fear for my life that I felt I needed to carry every single place I go....

No offense, but these are common passive/aggressive insults hurtled at gun owners, and those who chose to carry. And, when I say common, I mean very common. They are typical “anti” statements, but thanks for clearing up that you were only referring to yourself when you made them.

 

[marshaul]

Assumption c) is simply outdated by research in the general population, let alone in criminals. There is a book out now about irrationality in decision-making. Economists and sociologists and psychologists used to assume that people would always weigh risks and benefits before making a decision, but in terms of national policy as well as research this has been disproven. Why would a rational person be a common criminal anyway?

This itself is flawed. It assumes errors in the decision-making process equate to no process at all. However, this is simply not so. It's human nature to make risk/benefit analysis on every action we perform. It's so subconscious that we don't even notice it. The problem is, people have different value systems, and are not omniscient. So, it's quite common for one person to look at the results of another's risk/benefit analysis, and, coming to a different conclusion themselves, assume there simply was no risk/benefit analysis. In truth, this is nearly impossible for most adults. They may make the risk/benefit analysis, and come to the wrong conclusion, be it from lack of information or simply not devoting enough time to considering the ramifications of a given action; i.e. they make an analysis, but do so poorly.

My point to all this is you would do well to not disregard the risk/benefit analysis. Obviously, criminals do not consider legal ramifications (they do not "think they're going to be caught"), almost by definition. But, to me it's apparent that, while criminals may make poor decisions, they do not refrain from the decision-making process. And they understand simple things, like guns, and death. They know cops aren't going to shoot until threatened with deadly force. They don't know the same for you. In reality, few criminals are going to see an armed citizen and think "benefit". Reality is not Hollywood. Most criminals are not professional "hitmen" or skilled, organized bank robbers.

 

[MT GUNNY]

Hey! I got an Idea, How about those who want to OC, OC. And those who want to CC, CC. Either Has a Right to do it how they see fit.
That right buy the Constitution, under the 2Amendment.

This shouldnt be a conversation Gunny's have. We should be talking about how we are to maintain "shall not be Infringed"
and 9MM vs .45ACP wich we all know the .45 is superior.

 

[Merkelman]

I believe Open Carry takes our 2nd Amendment rights to an extreme and unnecessary level! The last thing we need is a bunch of red-neck knuckle draggers running around brandishing guns!!! If you want to prove to the anti's that gun owners are all radical skin-heads then support open carry.

 

[jahwarrior]

I believe Open Carry takes our 2nd Amendment rights to an extreme and unnecessary level! The last thing we need is a bunch of red-neck knuckle draggers running around brandishing guns!!! If you want to prove to the anti's that gun owners are all radical skin-heads then support open carry.

so, it's pkay if minorities open carry, then? i don't think i can be a redneck, since i'm puerto rican.

your post was probably the most ignorant in this thread. all you did was spew the same irrational, rhetorical nonsense that the antis use to support their position, instead of using facts.

FAIL.

 

[Mainsail]

The last thing we need is a bunch of red-neck knuckle draggers running around brandishing guns!!!

If you read the original post (yes, I know it’s long, sorry) and have something intellectually honest to counter any of my points, please post them so we can discuss them. Posting something as inane as what you have doesn’t add anything to the discussion.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I believe Open Carry takes our 2nd Amendment rights to an extreme and unnecessary level! The last thing we need is a bunch of red-neck knuckle draggers running around brandishing guns!!!

Seems to me that is exactly how we won the Revolutionary War. So, if you don't like it, move to the UK where us red-neck knuckle draggers chased your kind back to.

 

[LKB3rd]

I am in MN and you need a permit for open or concealed carry so this might explain a few things. We have always had a permit law but prior to 2003 (err 2005 - long story) the issue of permits was at the discretion of law enforcement so very few permits were ever issued. The finalized version of our current permit to carry law was passed in 2005. Needless to say, it would appear that the cops are still figuring out that (1) There is a permit law and (2) A person can carry concealed or openly - Some folks have been threatened with a citation for disorderly conduct for open carry. Nice.
Quote:
609.72 DISORDERLY CONDUCT.
Subdivision 1. Crime. Whoever does any of the following in a public or private place,
including on a school bus, knowing, or having reasonable grounds to know that it will, or will
tend to, alarm, anger or disturb others or provoke an assault or breach of the peace, is guilty of
disorderly conduct, which is a misdemeanor:
(1) Engages in brawling or fighting; or
(2) Disturbs an assembly or meeting, not unlawful in its character; or
(3) Engages in offensive, obscene, abusive, boisterous, or noisy conduct or in offensive,
obscene, or abusive language tending reasonably to arouse alarm, anger, or resentment in others.
A person does not violate this section if the person's disorderly conduct was caused by
an epileptic seizure.

Here in CT, the statute that they think applies is "breach of the peace." I have asked some officers about it and had them answer "Yep, inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm." The problem is that those things in and of themselves do not qualify according to the statute, in the same way that this disorderly conduct statute does not apply. It only applies, if you delete the half of the statute which lists the specific things done with intent or recklessness. If causing inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm qualified, I could be arrested for wearing a yellow shirt if I left the house knowing that there was a person in town who hated yellow shirts, and that person called up annoyed that I was doing it.

 

[LKB3rd]

I believe Open Carry takes our 2nd Amendment rights to an extreme and unnecessary level! The last thing we need is a bunch of red-neck knuckle draggers running around brandishing guns!!! If you want to prove to the anti's that gun owners are all radical skin-heads then support open carry.

I am a blue collar, conservative looking white northeastern guy. I am polite and respectful when out and about, open carrying or not. Open carrying is not brandishing.
Hopefully you are making a joke.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Here in CT, the statute that they think applies is "breach of the peace." I have asked some officers about it and had them answer "Yep, inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm." The problem is that those things in and of themselves do not qualify according to the statute, in the same way that this disorderly conduct statute does not apply. It only applies, if you delete the half of the statute which lists the specific things done with intent or recklessness. If causing inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm qualified, I could be arrested for wearing a yellow shirt if I left the house knowing that there was a person in town who hated yellow shirts, and that person called up annoyed that I was doing it.

So, by the same rule that they say applies to open carry, you can turn around and file a complaint against the cop for breach of peace because the cop annoyed you when he hassled you about your firearm, especially if he used any curse word at all while talking to yoU!

 

[Aran]

I love open carry. Far more comfortable, and allows for a much broader selection in wardrobe.

 

[jahwarrior]

I love open carry. Far more comfortable, and allows for a much broader selection in wardrobe.

that's one of the first things i loved about it. i didn't have to worry about finding a sweater or shirt baggy enough, or a pair of pants that were baggy enough.

so basically, i can stay fat.