Open Carry

[psyopspec]

Not the book “Unintended Consequences”! The concept. You can tell by the lack of capitalization.

Then that’s even more nebulous.

It’s quite possible to be supportive of a right while not exercising it the same way as others. I support free speech even when I disagree with what’s being said, for example.

 

[Lyle Wyatt]

The fun part of open carry threads is see how long it is until they get locked.

 

[FlSwampRat]

I’m all for open carry, but I also believe there is a time and place for it. I’ve seen several people in stores that open carry, but have as much situational awareness as a hog staring at a wrist watch.
When you see the guy in Walmart dressed like Rick Grimes from The Walking Dead, you just got to shake your head.
And then there are those that look like they spent more money on their T-shirt then on the holster they have on their hip.
Like I said, I’m all for open carry, just not for careless carry.
What are your thoughts.

To be honest, I'd rather a ne'er do well not know I'm carrying. That said, if someone is going to open carry, they should do so responsibly and have a greater awareness of their surroundings and a somewhat retentive holster. I get the whole debate on restricting an unauthorized person from accessing the firearm also restricting the carrier from deploying their own weapon. A quick draw "bucket" holster isn't a good idea at Wal Mart or on the dance floor at a club.

And are we talking Rick Grimes Season 1 Episode 1 or Rick Grimes Season 43 Episode 77?

 

[Hokie_PhD]

As a resident of northern Virginia, I have to say that open carrying does raise awareness -- but in the wrong direction. People here are not receptive to carrying guns, and open carrying just rubs it in their faces. The few times I have seen someone open carrying, it has made me cringe. Not because I feared the gun, but because I feared the bad impression it was making on others.

Open carrying is legal in Virginia, but it is something that should be done only as a last resort. That is, if we want to keep that right and not have it abolished. A few incidents would be all it would take for the legislature to abolish open carrying. This is actually low-hanging fruit for the antis.

I used to feel that way. And I was uncomfortable around folks open carrying until I moved out of Northern Va. seeing people carry responsibly has changed my mind. So I agree it can be bad, but as I said above, those who carry responsibly can be a positive thing.

 

[RovinOn]

I don’t open carry except when I’m at the hunting cabin in the woods or some other out of the way place. While it’s legal here in PA. I still carry concealed.
I believe in the thought of you don’t need to know what I have.
If you are a believer in open carry, so be it, it’s your right but do so responsibly as I do with my concealment.
Hey that’s why they make vanilla and chocolate,,,,something for everybody!

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

A quick draw "bucket" holster isn't a good idea at Wal Mart or on the dance floor at a club.

Wish you had told me that before I embarrassed myself.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Just that this subject has been hashed over so much, I know exactly where it's going. This is not a new or rarely traveled subject, it rates right up there with "what gun for bears?" and generally has about as much creditable info to be gleaned as the numerous "dumb guy at Walmart" threads. Funny, how this is a combination of "Idiotic Open Carry"and "Dumb Guy at Walmart". Somehow, I really think we are better than this.......but, maybe not.

At no time was I trying to be condescending. The guy in Walmart had on faded black jeans and a black button up shirt tucked in, boots and an old police duty belt worn in the same fashion as Rick. His 6” silver revolver was not a python, but a Taurus. He also had his haircut like Rick’s. About the only thing he was doing wrong was drawing attention to himself.
And about the holsters that some use? Most of us know that a good holster is important. Notice that I didn’t say the best or expensive holster, just a good one. I think that you would agree that if someone is to open carry that they should use a holster that would secure their gun until they wished to remove it.
And then situational awareness. I can’t count the times I have walked within a few feet of a person that was carrying open and it was like they didn’t even see me. Or the old guy with the cane in Walmart wit his gun carried in the small of his back. While standing behind him in the checkout line, I could have just taken his gun.

I support open carry, but not careless open carry.
I didn’t start this topic just to see it go down the drain. I wanted to see what views others had on the topic.

 

[Labguy47]

I’m gonna take a different stance than most. We are a nation with a violent past that promotes democracy at the end of a very big arsenal. We fought for independence, we are the worlds police force, and we have a right to bear arms.
Some people would like us to forget about our past and traditions. I for one took an oath to protect my country against all enemies foreign and domestic. No one has released me from that oath. Nor would I let them.
Everyone has a right to defend themselves, I fought for that right. Whether or not some agree or disagree, I think we are all entitled to the same constitutional rights.

 

[Sistema1927]

Good point. On another concealed carry forum I frequent, there are a few posts each year from people who got caught carrying against policy and are fired for it. “No one notices” is a crock.

Well duh.

If your company policy is no carry, and you are carrying openly, then of course you are going to be fired.

However, if one open carries where it is legal and not against policy, and does so discreetly without trying to draw attention to themselves, most folks don't bat an eye. As to my original contention that nobody noticed, I remember one 4th of July when I open carried at a family picnic. It wasn't until late in the evening during fireworks that my Dad said "I just noticed that you are carrying a revolver. Have you been wearing that all day?"

 

[BigBore44]

As someone who would appear to be one of those Rick Grimes types, I’m somewhat offended (and I’m already over it because I understand).

I’m very used to being the book judged initially by my cover. When I started nursing school, I walked in the first day and got very strange looks. There was no dress code. And I am not comfortable dressing to impress. So I came to class in my camo pants, matching camo hoodie, camo hat, and boots. I also have a very “impressive” beard (so I’m told quite often). Most everyone thought I was in the wrong class (they told me so later). And then we took an intro test and I almost aced it. Next highest grade was just over 70%. Guess who everyone wanted to be friends with after that?
Who’s now a nurse that specializes in ACLS and airway management with patients on mechanical vents and tracheostomy’s?

I may not look like your ideal “gun toter” unless we were to cross paths in the woods during deer season. And if that’s how I’m judged, so be it. Theres an old adage of “You never get a second chance to make a first impression”. But I can tell you from experience, that’s not on the person making the impression. That’s on the person refusing to see past their own judgmental, elitist, perceptions.

I also believe demographics and where one comes from plays a very large role in this. The attitudes or perception of people from various parts of the country, about people where I live (a flyover state) is very evident. Many times we are viewed as uneducated, racist, and/or unsophisticated and should be avoided. But we will be the ones who stop to help when your car breaks down or you have an accident. We’ll be the ones, many times, who stand there and hold the door for 10 people to walk through. Not just the pretty woman in the tight dress that we want to get a closer look at. They don’t usually say “Thank you” anyways.

I have posted a few stories on here of some of the things I’ve done in the benefit of others. One was a story of helping a family from Chicago that had slid off the road after a snow storm. The man was shocked anyone would stop. He said people don’t even stop for dead bodies up there. Another was a time I paid for all of a random soldier and his kid’s sundries at a gas station without him even knowing. It wasn’t for accolades. It was just a way to say thank you for keeping my country safe. In California or New York, that “might” be a very uncommon occurrence. Here, it’s not.

I do OC. Because I literally cannot CC in a way that would allow quick access to my firearm should I need it to defend myself or others from the threat of serious physical harm due to my body structure. Appendix carry a FS 1911 and tell me how comfortable it is. Carrying in the small of my back doesn’t allow me to defend/retain my weapon should I be attacked from behind. Shoulder holsters don’t work with hoodies. Neither do chest rigs. Tactical thigh holsters, just.....no. And I’m not going to carry a micro pistol just so it’s concealed. I don’t shoot them well anyways. Never have. It’s the short sight radius. And I believe it’s way more important to be able to hit your target than to just point in it’s direction. I do have situational awareness. I’m always scanning people. Don’t sit with my back to the door at restaurants. I’ve taken Defensive Tactics and Police Pistol 1&2 My DT instructor was inducted into the martial arts hall of fame the year before Chuck Norris. And he kicked my ass. A lot. But I also learned a lot and still practice what I was taught. My P.P. Instructor was the same instructor that taught TPD officers. After the first day, I was assisting him with the class teaching other students. I’ve trained in MMA with Randy Couture’s camp. And I could go on and on.

Am I the exception? Maybe. Maybe not. But I can tell you this; You wouldn’t know a single one of those things if you just saw me at the “Walmarts” and dismissed me as an uneducated redneck with no training. It would be a very bad idea to make that asssumption about me. And it’s an unfair assumption to make about anyone else.

 

[Sypher....]

Can someone please share all these incidents of guns being removed and used on those who open carry?

Or how about sharing all these other incidents of the person ocing being the first shot?

I know logically it's not hard for the mind to think that is the case, but personally I just don't see it happening (don't hear about it in the news)! I would think if these things were happening all the time, as it seems by some posts, the anti's would be all over it, and none of us would own any firearms.

How about the crimes that aren't committed because someone open carried?

You would have an easier time proving my first two sentences, than I would my last, but I'm sure it happens too!!

I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelers, but I get so tired of hearing open carriers are going to be the first ones shot, or someone taking their gun off them and killing them, presented as absolute fact without any data to back it up.

Crying out loud, 99.99% of the time I don't even open carry!!

My only problem with it other that taking away one of my (at least perceived) advantages of not being obviously armed, is that if everyone can see it, it’s hard to make a decision on what one...

This is a great comment. Thank you.​

Stepping off my soapbox.

I'm glad most of us on the forum live in a place where we can have opinions, and share them. I enjoy having discussions with people who have different views than I do. A lot of times I learn new things and sometimes my opinions may change based upon new information I was unaware of. But, don't hate me and shame me if they don't agree with yours. Embrace it for what it is.

 

[rpenmanparker]

At no time was I trying to be condescending. The guy in Walmart had on faded black jeans and a black button up shirt tucked in, boots and an old police duty belt worn in the same fashion as Rick. His 6” silver revolver was not a python, but a Taurus. He also had his haircut like Rick’s. About the only thing he was doing wrong was drawing attention to himself.
And about the holsters that some use? Most of us know that a good holster is important. Notice that I didn’t say the best or expensive holster, just a good one. I think that you would agree that if someone is to open carry that they should use a holster that would secure their gun until they wished to remove it.
And then situational awareness. I can’t count the times I have walked within a few feet of a person that was carrying open and it was like they didn’t even see me. Or the old guy with the cane in Walmart wit his gun carried in the small of his back. While standing behind him in the checkout line, I could have just taken his gun.

I support open carry, but not careless open carry.
I didn’t start this topic just to see it go down the drain. I wanted to see what views others had on the topic.

So let’s consider the possibility that most open carriers will do it right. Vanishingly small IMO. You may see it differently. But how many times has there been a thread here about a non-LE person seen open carrying and doing it exactly properly. I can’t remember a single one. So what we have here is another take on we have the right, but that doesn’t automatically make it right to do. Forgive my heresy please, but it isn’t a good situation for folks to have the right to do things they simply won’t do right.

 

[Wisco]

About the only thing he was doing wrong was drawing attention to himself.

Like I said before, I’m not going to psychoanalyze everyone I see open carrying, but I would bet a mid-month paycheck that drawing attention is the point.

 

[BigBore44]

Forgive my heresy please, but it isn’t a good situation for folks to have the right to do things they simply won’t do right.

Now that is a potentially VERY dangerous sentiment.

 

[rpenmanparker]

Now that is a potentially VERY dangerous sentiment.

Nothing was said or implied about rights being revoked. I just said it isn’t a good situation. If I were alone thinking that way, this whole thread would have never been started.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

Forgive my heresy please, but it isn’t a good situation for folks to have the right to do things they simply won’t do right.

Like vote or speak?

 

[Old Dog]

But how many times has there been a thread here about a non-LE person seen open carrying and doing it exactly properly.

I reside in a state in which open carry is, while not common, not un-common, and I see it a lot (yes, even in Western Washington, and even more on the Eastern side).

Just a couple days ago while pulling into my local Fred Meyer, I saw two young guys debarking from a nice Toyota SUV; both neatly attired in 5-11s, polo shirts, with instructor-type belts and higher-end Kydex rigs holding (sigh) Glocks, of course … clean-cut dudes, possibly military (we have several large military bases in our two adjoining counties), nothing amiss there. In my town, I see more than a few of our local seniors, well-groomed and polite, running their errands with nicely tooled leather rigs and their six-shooters, some with nice old SAA revolvers.

OC is typically done right up here. Seldom are there issues with the local gendarmerie. I have seen at my local Wal-Mart (hey, I only go there to pick up ammo and deodorant, really) the lesser well-groomed types with cheapo Uncle Mike's nylon holsters, barely held up by cheap belts, but it does seem to me that our local OC crowd is paying attention. Are they trying to make a political statement? Possibly some of 'em are. Likely a lot of them, though, have just decided they like to carry in a comfortable fashion.

 

[rpenmanparker]

Like vote or speak?

Like anything. It is a universal truth. Having the right to do something you refuse to do the right way is not good. It is bad. It may continue for eternity, but it will still be bad. Just because you have a right, one that many folks, not me, but many folks, believe is granted by a deity, doesn’t mean the outcomes will be positive.

 

[BigBore44]

Nothing was said or implied about rights being revoked. I just said it isn’t a good situation. If I were alone thinking that way, this whole thread would have never been started.

You said it’s not good for them TO HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO THINGS THEY SIMPLY WON’T DO RIGHT. That implies the right shouldn’t be available to those that don’t do it correctly. We don’t live in that country. Just explain what you mean. Maybe you just misspoke. No worries. It happens. I’ve done it.

 

[WrongHanded]

I’m all for open carry, but I also believe there is a time and place for it. I’ve seen several people in stores that open carry, but have as much situational awareness as a hog staring at a wrist watch.
When you see the guy in Walmart dressed like Rick Grimes from The Walking Dead, you just got to shake your head.
And then there are those that look like they spent more money on their T-shirt then on the holster they have on their hip.
Like I said, I’m all for open carry, just not for careless carry.
What are your thoughts.

I think open carry should ideally be reserved (through individual choice) for lower population situations where we are not likely to frequently be within arms reach of people. My reasoning behind this is that when we are in a situation that requires us to have strangers at close quarters moving in and out of our personal bubble, and when we are distracted by another task, it's very easy to lose focus on our surroundings.

If I know the grocery store will be busy, and I know I get a little tunnel vision trying to find all the items on my list, maybe I can make an objective assessment of my ability to remain aware of my surroundings. And then use that assessment to make a sensible choice about whether or not to OC.

I also detest people using openly carried firearms as a fashion accessory. It's entirely possible to OC discreetly, so when I see people making a show of it or a "statement", I get a little frustrated. It's a tool for self defense, not a gimmick or a prop.

 

[Officers'Wife]

You said it’s not good for them TO HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO THINGS THEY SIMPLY WON’T DO RIGHT. That implies the right shouldn’t be available to those that don’t do it correctly. We don’t live in that country. Just explain what you mean. Maybe you just misspoke. No worries. It happens. I’ve done it.

Another one of my dinner table civics lessons was summarized with the statement- The hardest part of living in a free society is the mandatory duty to allow others to do things you do not necessarily approve of.

 

[JohnKSa]

You said it’s not good for them TO HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO THINGS THEY SIMPLY WON’T DO RIGHT. That implies the right shouldn’t be available to those that don’t do it correctly.

Sort of. It's a good thing for people to have rights. It's a bad thing when they misuse them. Misuse of rights can lead to the loss of rights for those who misuse them seriously enough in a manner that society has deemed sufficiently "wrong" to be criminal, but that doesn't mean that those rights should be made unavailable in general.

In other words, if someone misuses their rights badly enough, those rights (and others) may be taken away from them lawfully. But that doesn't mean those rights should be taken away from EVERYONE simply because some people might (or do) misuse them.

Yes, it is clearly a bad thing for a person to have the right to do something if they have demonstrated that they will misuse that right to the severe detriment of others. This is why we incarcerate criminals (take away their right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness) and even execute some. But the idea that rights should be limited across the board due to the actions (or possible actions) of a few is obviously very problematic.

It's worth pointing out that open carrying foolishly/tactlessly/unwisely isn't really in the same category as misusing rights in a criminal manner.

Another one of my dinner table civics lessons was summarized with the statement- The hardest part of living in a free society is the mandatory duty to allow others to do things you do not necessarily approve of.

Up to a point. As far as I know, there are no rights which can be exercised totally without limit. Society places limits on all rights. You can, in many places in the U.S., even lose your right to life if you misuse your rights to a sufficient extent.

Obviously that's a pretty extreme example and not really applicable to people being imprudent or controversial in the way that they choose to open carry.

Like vote or speak?

Yes, of course. There are examples where a person's right to vote, or even to speak about certain topics can be revoked if they demonstrate in certain ways that society finds completely unacceptable, that they are unworthy of those rights. Those are pretty extreme cases, compared to open carrying in a way that irritates or alarms people, but it is certainly true that basic rights can be legally restricted.

It's also worth keeping in mind that if society begins to see open carry as a problem for some reason, public opinion can turn against it to the extent that laws allowing it can be rescinded, and/or laws prohibiting it can be passed. Then, unless SCOTUS is willing to rule that laws against OC are unconstitutional, the right will, from a practical standpoint, go away.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Up to a point. As far as I know, there are no rights which can be exercised totally without limit. Society places limits on all rights. You can, in many places in the U.S., even lose your right to life if you misuse your rights to a sufficient extent.

Obviously that's a pretty extreme example and not really applicable to people being imprudent or controversial in the way that they choose to open carry.

Indeed society does, society even has a name for those limits - laws. In a free society, what is not illegal is permissible. Case in point, in my mind abortion is an abomination to a peaceful society. However, it is not illegal so I have the duty to allow it to maintain my position in a peaceful society. The neighbors on the adjacent section think that hunting is "cruel" and refuse to allow it. As a result the deer population in their thicket has increased to the point where we cannot grow soybeans next to their property due to wildlife losses. Our duty is to allow the practice even though it effects us financially. This same neighbor thinks that Canadian thistles are "pretty" and refused to kill any living plants. Since that species is a prohibited plant we had the legal and moral obligation to insist on them pulling them up. No right is absolute under the social contract, including recourse of being offended by the neighbors' lawful behavior.

 

[rpenmanparker]

You said it’s not good for them TO HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO THINGS THEY SIMPLY WON’T DO RIGHT. That implies the right shouldn’t be available to those that don’t do it correctly. We don’t live in that country. Just explain what you mean. Maybe you just misspoke. No worries. It happens. I’ve done it.

I didn’t exactly say that, but WTH, close enough. I certainly don’t think what I said implies the right shouldn't be available to those who won’t do it right. That’s your hangup.

Are you taking the opposite position that it IS a good thing for people to have the right to do things they refuse to do right? Because if so, I win the jackpot. Look, there is no absolute good or bad connected to RKBA no matter how much you want to believe so. It won’t always lead to good outcomes. And never forget, that right you think is so absolute can be gone in a heartbeat. It just takes the passage and ratification of a Constitutional amendment just like the one that created the right in the first place. The sooner we all realize this isn’t about absolutes, the better able we will be to adopt and defend rational positions.

 

[harrygunner]

We do have to be careful about being classist. There's a barrier to overcome, availability of hundreds of dollars, to carry concealed in most places. In some states, one may need four to five hundred dollars to get the permit, repeatedly to keep the permit. A nice rig can add hundreds more on top of that.

Open carry allows some to exercise their right in a way they can afford.