Opinions/Experiences with 1x4 optics

Status
Not open for further replies.
J

JWarren

Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2007
Messages
4,632
Location
MS and LA
Hiya...

I wanted to avoid a thread high-jack and would really like to gather some information on the following optics that I am considering for my AR-15.

I am really looking for information on durability as well as any other tidbits you may have which may include clarity, customer support issues, recticle, etc.

Zak Smith gave some really good information on the Leupold MR/T that I had not considered, so I am sure that there is much I could learn from you guys.


So, here's the one that I am intested in:


- Leupold Mk4 1.5x5
- Meopta KDot
- IOR Valada 1.1x4
- Burris XTR 1x4 (Also any comments regarding its Fastfire Red-Dot companion)
- Millet DMS-1 1x4


I am really not interested in looking at Red Dots or Holo Sights like Aimpoints and EOTechs on this thread.


Thanks!



-- John
 
As general comments, the approx 1-4x variables should address both what I call Type I and Type II uses,
Type I sights are non-magnified red-dot optics. They are optimized for zero to 100 yards, and are most effective within the cartridge's point-blank distance, which is about 275 yards for 5.56. On large targets such as full silhouettes, they can make hits out to about 350 yards, but from 400 yards and further, compensating for over three feet of bullet drop is problematic. Type I optics are typically reduced-parallax or parallax-free red-dot sights with no magnification. The most common Type I optics are the Aimpoint M2, M3, or M4, and the EOTech.

Unity magnification allows the fastest sight-picture acquisition and the shooter can maintain true binocular vision while shooting. At extended distances, the lack of magnification is a liability in target location, identification, and sight picture. Type I optics are appropriate for virtually all defensive rifle uses, and are the right choice for fighting with 100 yards. They excel at shooting while moving and shooting from awkward positions like rollover prone, supine, and the weak-side shoulder. Iron sights still have a place due to their dumb-as-rocks mechanical simplicity, and fit in as a Type I sighting system, although they do not enjoy many advantages of the Type I optics.
Click to expand...
I didn't mention it there because I was discussing red dot style optics, but a very bright reticle center is critical for speed in this type of optic.

Now onto the Type II
Type II sights are low-power magnified optics with reticle features providing aiming points for distant targets. The Type II optic should not have external knobs to prevent loss of zero due to the knobs being bumped. They are optimized for 75 to about 400 yards. Type II optics are generally either fixed magnification in the three to four power range, or are variable power in the one to four range. The most common Type II optic is the Trijicon ACOG, in either the 4x versions (TA31, TA01) or the 3.5x version (TA11). The US Military realizes these capabilities in the Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR) and Squad Designated Marksman Rifle (SDM-R).

At very close range, Type II optics are much slower to acquire a sight picture than the Type I red dots. They can be stretched to 600 to 800 yards provided the target is large and the reticle provides sufficient bullet-drop compensation (BDC) features. These optics provide good target spotting and identification. Close-range speed can be improved by the addition of a brightly illuminated reticle center, since the brain is drawn quickly to bright objects. The TA31 and TA11 ACOGs have this feature, as does the Schmidt and Bender Short Dot.

Low-power variable-magnification Type II optics improve close-range target acquisition speed at their lowest magnification setting; the closer to true 1x the better. The goal of these variable-power scopes is to provide the speed of the Type I optic, but still the target ID and distance capabilities of the Type II optics. The price for this flexibility is paid in increased purchase cost, less durability, and more weight and bulk on the carbine.

For small but practical targets, such as a ten-inch plates, the Type II optic will limit engagement distance to 350-450 yards, where the coarse BDC, thick reticle lines, and low magnification inhibit the ability to achieve the correct point of aim and a clear sight picture.
Click to expand...
(from http://demigodllc.com/articles/fighting-carbine-optics-for-the-ar-15/ )

This provides a "feature framework" in which to evaluate the various 1-4x scopes. The most common ways manufacturers "screw up" the specification of a low power variable scope designed for practical shooting:

* have a reticle that is too complicated

* have a reticle whose illumination is not bright enough to stand out in daylight

* illuminate the whole reticle instead of just the primary aiming point center (ie, your point-blank aiming point)

Long eye relief will be an issue on all of these and the LaRue EER is probably the best way to go unless you "bridge" your receiver rail to free-float rail.

Here is a review of the Meopta
http://www.packpractical.com/reviews/meopta.php
 
Zak,

As usual, I appreciate your input and information.

I have your website bookmarked on my computer, and I typically go back through and re-read different articles as I need to get guidance.

I really appreciate that review of the Meopta KDot.


So far, I think I have ruled out the Leupold MR/T. I am up in the air on the Meopta still.

Do you have any opinions or information on the Burris XTR or Millet DMR?


Thanks again!


-- John
 
Zak,

I was concerned that the Burris recticle seemed a tad over-complicated.

I am not as concerned about whether illumination washes out in sunlight, as I am OK with just using the black recticle in those times. I say this because my overall plan on this firearm is to mate the 1x4 with a mini-red dot such as a Doctor Optic or JPoint-- Similar in fashion to the Burris XTR w/ Fastfire. To me, this seems to be the "acceptable" of both worlds for this rifle-- if I can train myself to get used to it.


What about the Millet? Its price seems favorable, but I don't know if its clarity would be up to par.


Thanks again my friend!


-- John
 
The point of a 1-4x variable is to get close-range speed and longer-range ability in the same optic. Adding a secondary dot seems redundant-- for the combination price, I bet you could find a 1-4 that has a bright reticle center. A secondary optic requires a bunch of extra training to see a speed improvement over the primary optic because the rifle position and cheek weld are different.
 
Good point, Zak.

From what I had gathered, the benefit to the mini-dot was the "instant on" aspect. But realistically, if something goes bump in the night, I am operating point-blank.

And I tend to grab my .45 for that.


I've read that the Millet can wash out in daylight. That may be something to think about.


What is your opinion of the IOR Valada 1x4?


It seems that I have eliminated the Leupold MR/T, the Burris XTR, and possibly the Millet.

I wasn't exactly thrilled with the experiences mentioned with the Meopta KDot in terms of customer support, but I think I did read that the KDot doesn't wash out.


The rifle that this is going on is a general-purpose knock around that I also consider a SD rifle, and one that I will use as a "Brush" hunting rifle on portable stands, as well as facilitating the demise of a pack of coyotes that are starting to kill deer on our land.

For any real distance and for most hunting, I'll be using a LR-308 that I am mounting a Leupold Mk4 on.


That may help.


Thanks again!


-- John
 
Calling it "washing out" isn't quite accurate. The reticles that are black and then illuminated red will just appear black or very dark red/black if the illumination is not daylight-visible.

I haven't played with the IOR.

I think the cheapest option is the Meopta. For my money, I'd get either a TR21 or the Short Dot.

-z
 
I have looked through a Meopta and it is good glass and a good reticle. It is pretty expensive by my standards. The Millett has reported as fragile. Try searching over here in the 3 gun sections:

www.brianenos.com
 
Thanks Zak.

I'll probably be a bit "short" on a Short Dot for a while. However, that is my ideal.

I may look into the Trijicon TR21 as another option as well.


Thanks!


-- John
 
this is a great thread....

thanks for all the input guys.

What about a good old Leupold VXIII 1.5x5 with a heavy duplex reticle?

I have good results making quick shots hunting with this reticle. I know it is not very tactical, but it is simple and fast.

The 1x4 VXII looks good too.

have a good one,

Matt
 
I'm looking at the same scopes for a GP rifle as well. Thanks for the info.
 
What about a good old Leupold VXIII 1.5x5 with a heavy duplex reticle?
Click to expand...
This is one of -- if not my absolute -- favorite scopes. I use it on a variety of different rifles, including general purpose hunting, and "practical" rifles. 1.5x, on a rifle that fits me, is blazing fast. And 5x is, IMO, enough for any realistic hunting range. They are also utterly bullet-proof and add very little weight to the gun.

For me, the choice is between the VXIII and the 2.5 fixed ultracompact. I would not put one on a dedicated long-distance -- meaning 500+ yards -- target rifle. For everything else I think they are wonderful.
 
It's very refreshing to see a guy who understands that a scope does nothing but allow you to see the target better and isn't looking at a high magnification scope on an AR. Thanks, JWarren.
Have a look at the Burris Mini-scopes. Long eye relief(4" I think) with light weight.
 
I"ve got a 1.5x4.5 Bushnell Trophy shotgun scope that I've used for years on a 308. It's never lost zero and I love the short eye relief when hunting in heavily wooded areas. The circle in the middle of the crosshairs are great as it's the same size as a deers vitals at 25yards set on 1.5.

Another one you might want to consider is one I just picked up to replace the Bushnell. I got a Pentax 1.5x6x with the bullet drop compensating reticle in it for around 130.00. I just installed it and have yet to get it zeroed but the same model in a 4x12x I put on my 7mm mag is just great! Clarity I'd have to put on par with the nikon or leupold varXII. Just a thought.
 
What is the purpose of the rifle? Low power variables are ok for short to medium range targets (maybe 3-400 yards). Not fastest up close, not enough magnification for long ranges.

I used a Simmons ProDiamond 1.5-5 as a low cost starter and it was fine except the adjustment clicks were coarse and not repeatable. So I bought a used IOR Valdada 1.1-4. Not enough matches with it to know how well it will work for me, but at least I can get a zero, good at longer distances.

Yes, the illuminated IOR reticle goes black in bright sun. But if it is that bright, I do not need illumination.

Lee
 
Thanks for the additional information. I'm still in pondering mode here.


What is the purpose of the rifle? Low power variables are ok for short to medium range targets (maybe 3-400 yards). Not fastest up close, not enough magnification for long ranges.
Click to expand...


JWarren wrote:

The rifle that this is going on is a general-purpose knock around that I also consider a SD rifle, and one that I will use as a "Brush" hunting rifle on portable stands, as well as facilitating the demise of a pack of coyotes that are starting to kill deer on our land.

For any real distance and for most hunting, I'll be using a LR-308 that I am mounting a Leupold Mk4 on.
Click to expand...



-- John
 
I am in a similar position thinking about the AR15 and optics. I was wondering if Zak or anyone else had any comments about the Trijicon Accupoint 1.25-4x 24mm scope. I looked through one of these at a gun show and it seemed like a nice, clear optic with a bright amber triangle. But, this was indoors of course.

I also would like to know what the impact is on binocular vision when using an optic that has a slightly higher than 1x magnification, such as 1.25x or 1.5x.

Thanks in advance! :cool:
 
Ok, I read the other thread and the article - a lot of good info in both. I think I will hold off on the TR21, for now.

Zak, I've read some of your articles before coming to THR, and have gotten a lot out of them. I have a rifle on the wish list due to one of your articles. Keep up the good work! :cool:
 
The TR21 is a good optic.. it just has no reticle features for holdover.
Click to expand...

That was exactly what raised a red flag; it reminded me of what I saw when I picked up one. I forgot about the black post. The optic I am looking for would need to cover 0-400 yards, preferably. I have even considered puttting on a good magnification scope with a small red dot mounted on a 90 degree rail or even 45 degree mount for close up, but I don't really like the idea of a sight of some sort hanging off the side like that.

I'm still trying to figure this out. Thanks again!
 
TexasShooter59,

perhaps a small halo mounted to the top of the scope? the cheek weld could remain in the same place, just raise the head up.

i like the OLD leo 1x4. they had VERY heavy duplex reticles. to my knowledge, these can't be ordered any more. no target optic, as the center junction covered well over an inch @100yds. the plus is the lower end being closer to a true one power. and the thick cross being visible @ low X, in most any light you can see a target in, without closing the pupil until the target gets lost. as has been my experience with illuminated reticles and bright red dots/triangles.

for dark-as-a-cave night use, best case is a a PNV. but they are big and $pendy.

second best is a trilux/suit relamped with dim green meprolight element, and a good rail mount flashlight. i am working on a system to make the trilux stay put, but most do not want to in OEM configuration.

<$0.02

gunnie
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

J
  • Locked
Ideal 1x4 power optics criteria that I've come up with (with your help)
Replies
23
Views
3K
Zak Smith
Zak Smith
J
  • Locked
Optics questions.
Replies
7
Views
535
taliv
T
O
  • Locked
Please list >>problems<< with optical sights
2
Replies
40
Views
3K
Bartholomew Roberts
B
A
  • Locked
Best Optic for an AK?
2
Replies
35
Views
2K
AKElroy
A
2
  • Locked
Optices - USPSA - 3 gun
Replies
3
Views
684
VegasOPM
V
Back
Top