Opinions on using 5.56mm M-855 green tip for home defense?

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Actually, M855 doesn't perform that much differently than M193. The main difference is inconsistency in the neck length before yawing due to more complex construction.

People should understand though that both M193 and M855 do not yaw and fragment 100% of the time even when the velocity is ideal. For that matter, the same lot of M193 ammunition can exhibit different yaw characteristics when fired through different rifles (what they call "fleet yaw")
 
+1.

Green tip has a bad reputation online mostly because of mythology and hearsay. If the shooter can do his job and score hits (an uncertain issue, even at close range, when it's for real), the round will put people on the ground and end fights. But, the internet is full of "but I shot him 50 times and he kept going" stories, which almost always turn out to be "I shot at him 50 times . . ."
 
Yeah, I think the M855 does have a negative reputation as always performing like an icepick, no matter the range or velocity, etc, due to failures in warfare. (any round will have failures in warfare)

I still haven't completely discounted the use of M855, but is there any proof why something like a Black Hills 75 grain hollow point will reliably expand/shatter/yaw much better than M855 at close range? Logic seems to tell me that if I missed with either round, I'd rather have 62 grains of lead going astray at a slightly higher velocity than 75 grains of lead at a lower velocity. When it comes to penetration of medium/hard objects, doesn't extra weight only help?

If it makes any difference, I'm not using some eastern-slavic country made M855, but Lake City M855, which is as true to the real deal as it gets.
(high velocity, proper cannelure, etc)
 
When it comes to barrier penetration, a few grains either way won't make much difference, in my opinion. The bullet's construction and velocity seem to be more important.

That said, I would use expanding ammo for HD. As others have asked, why limit yourself to FMJ? So HP's are a few bucks more. So what? What's your life worth? :)
 
That said, I would use expanding ammo for HD. As others have asked, why limit yourself to FMJ? So HP's are a few bucks more. So what? What's your life worth?

It seems to me this statement assumes 2 things:

1: 5.56mm Hollow points are going to expand at HD ranges. I'm not so sure about that one.

2. How am I limiting myself to FMJ, if the primary fragmentation design of the 5.56mm round was with 55 grain FMJ ammunition, albeit with a cannelure and thin jacket?

No disrespect meant whatsoever, just trying to further expand my points.
I do agree by this point though that M855 perhaps is not the best choice.

I now think the two best choices are either M193 ball, or a 75 grain hollow point due to its extremely reliable fragmentation out of short barrels.

(My HD gun is a 14.5" Colt, so I'll probably go with the 75gr)

On a side note, does anyone have any info on how 75gr@~2600fps bullets perform against barriers/hard objects? The 75grain BTHP Prvi Partizan bullets are cheap, and could provide a nice SHTF/stockpile load.
 
What I meant by ''expanding ammo'' was hollow points, soft points, polymer tipped rounds, etc. I think they are a better choice because they're purpose-designed for fragmentation and expansion. Maybe the M193 was designed to fragment, but it's still an FMJ. HP's are simply meant to expand.

I mean, sure, you can take a pickup and soup it up, but a purpose-built car is still going to be faster. :D

dodging230grainers said:
1: 5.56mm Hollow points are going to expand at HD ranges. I'm not so sure about that one.
Why are you not sure? If HP's will expand, they'll expand at HD range. I don't mean this in an arrogant way; I'm just asking an honest question.

No disrespect meant whatsoever, just trying to further expand my points.
I do agree by this point though that M855 perhaps is not the best choice.
Absolutely non taken. :) I like intelligent discussions!
 
I concur with the above. There's not reason to use ball ammo for HD. All this yaw/fragemtation is because the military has to use fmj ammo. We don't have those comstraints. what do you carry in your pistol? FMJ? No way.

One question about varmint rounds for HD. Why wouldn't one want the round to not penetrate? Personally, I want the round to dump all it's energy into the subject and hopefully, the temporary wound channel cause by it would facilitate increased bleeding along with whatever damage expansion and fragmentation cause. Otherwise, give me a softpoint or hollowpoint of some sort for 2-legged animals. No need for m855 or m193.

I got pictures of 55gr fmj and SS109 shot through an armored car door, but am having trouble uploading them. If anyone wants to host them, IM me with your email and I'll send them. Otherwise I'll post them up once my media server's working right.
 
I use M193. Accuracy from 16" 1:7 bbl and terminal ballisitics are more than adequate for my HD needs.

In the event of an errant shot, the bullet will destabilize as it penetrates a wall, and then as it strikes subsequent barrier materials it will not be point forward orientation, which substantially decreases penetration potential. Doesn't matter what kind or weight of bullet.
 
That was my rationale with the M193 also, Shawn.

I think the cool thing about the 55gr 5.56mm round is that is VERY good at penetrating the first object it encounters, and then after that becomes fairly de-stabilized and/or fragmented.


I know people get too engrossed with fragmentation, but being that it's one of the 5.56mm's best wounding mechanism...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the heavier the 5.56 bullet, the less velocity it generally needs to fragment, right?

It's generally well known that M193/M855 fragmentation velocity envelope is 2700fps+.

Is it true that 75 grain bullets only need around 2200fps?
 
It isn't just bullet weight. I remember reading (ammo oracle?) that different brands of the same 55gr FMJ design performed differently in fragmentation results. Some had thicker or thinner jackets that facilitated or hindered fragmentation. Some had a pronounced canelure, whilst others did not, etc.
 
You have to be careful making generalizations as even the same ammo, from the same lot can have different yaw characteristics when shot from different rifles.

Generally though, the Hornady 75gr BTHP round will yaw and fragment consistently down to around 2200fps. On the other hand in my 16" barrel, it starts out at about 2550fps; but the better BC lets it keep that velocity longer.

As for expanding ammo, it typically produces a smaller wound channel than a round that does yaw and fragment; but it is still impressive and at home defense distances and rifle velocities you will definitely see expansion.

One question about varmint rounds for HD. Why wouldn't one want the round to not penetrate?

Because if the round stops penetrating before it reaches a vital structure (central nervous system, large blood-bearing organ), it will not be effective at producing a physiological stop.

Some of the varmint rounds only penetrate 4-5". Check out this thread for a good idea of what different .223 rounds might do and why that can be a problem in some circumstances:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=146306
 
The more I read about 75/77 grain bullets for the 5.56mm, the more it intrigues me.

The 75 or 77 gr bullet weight out of a 1x8 or faster twist basically turns the 16" carbine into a very effective 250 meter weapon, the M4 14.5" into a very effective 200 meter weapon, and the M16 20" into a very effective 350 meter weapon, an average of 100 meters above that of M193/M855 effectiveness.

The only downside for LEO/military applications seems to be that they are more expensive to produce, and offer less hard barrier penetration than the M855 or even M193 counterpart.
 
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Ok, here's an armored car door. Minimum is two plates is 1/8" steal. the gunport has a 1/4" plate steal frame in the front and part or the port has an additional (I think) 1/4" plate.

55gr and ss109 went through both 1/8 steal plate easily and appear to have stayed together.

http://media.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=3725

With regard to to using anything in 5.56 or .223 for a one shot stop... I've always been taught that that round isn't a one shot stopping round. Wrong tool. The stopping process for using the carbine in 5.56 was described as follows:

The human body is like an engine. You can punch holes in it and it will continue to run. Until all the oil drains out, that is. So the idea is to punch holes and then wait for itto stop running. How this translated to trianing, that's two in the upper thoracic cavity, two in the pelvis to stop the threat from advancing, and if necessary, one in the noggin now that the target has stopped moving as much. Never was penetration to hit anything in the central nervous system through the chest cavity mentioned. I think this was because 5.56 isn't right for the job.

Having said all this, this is only in relation to using flavors of fmj as a man stopper. One does not have to accept FMJ with it's "limitations" and worry about penetrating interior or exterior walls. There are other options for civies for HD.

Personally, it's 00 buck for my so i don't have a dog in this fight.

I'll see whether I can set up somescenarios where I can shoot through a wall of sheet rock or two and then into some Hardy plank or brick and on into a milk jug or water or something. Might take a while to arrange, but I'll keep this thread subscribed and post results.

ETA I'll double check, but I think that my gun club owner shot varmint rounds through sheet rock walls and into milk jugs. The round didn't exit the jug but did kaboom it. I think I have a couple hog quarters that I can thaw and use as intervening tissue in front of a milk jug to test some varmint rounds. Might make for a good experiment to see what they will do to actual flesh.
 
The 75 or 77 gr bullet weight out of a 1x8 or slower twist basically turns the 16" carbine into a very effective 250 meter weapon
Wait- slower twist, or faster?
I'd still rather have a 77 gr M262 Mod 1 load, or barring a 1:7 twist, a 69 gr OTM load.
What's wrong with a 69gr OTM load from a 1:7?

Mike
 
Thanks for the correction Coronach, I meant faster.

Nothing wrong with a 69gr OTM, but for what its worth, gel testing has pretty much proven that at HD ranges 77gr BTHP will have the best fragmentation and yawing properties of any 5.56mm round.
 
rino451 said:
55gr and ss109 went through both 1/8 steal plate easily and appear to have stayed together

This is because more solid mediums do not allow the bullet to yaw and without yawing the bullet doesn't break and fragment.

So the idea is to punch holes and then wait for itto stop running.

You are going to be waiting a lot longer if you are waiting for shallow but large surface wounds to bleed out than if you destroy larger blood bearing organs or the actual circulatory system. Take a look at the thread I posted. There is a nice anatomical cross section of a human torso there to demonstrate what I am talking about.

Second, the pelvis is a poor secondary target. There are fewer vital structures there and the ones that are there are smaller in size than the head.

Third the round is irrelevant - you either destroy the central nervous system or someone bleeds out (which can take as long as 15 seconds even with total destruction of the heart).

Seriously, please take a look at the thread I linked. I made a fairly detailed explanation there of why varmint rounds may not be ideal that I'd rather not retype every time the subject comes up.

77gr BTHP will have the best fragmentation and yawing properties of any 5.56mm round.

I wouldn't place too much emphasis on it since shot placement and training are MUCH more important than ammo selection but look at the long neck on 77gr ammo before it yaws and compare it to something like the 75gr that yaws almost immediately but still penetrates well. Imagine those different gel shots overlaid over the torso cross section and what that means performance wise.
 
I've spent a fair amount of time reading, shooting, and interviewing for first hand data that has led me to the following conclusion. For inside the house or immediately surrounding it to a range of 25 yards a folding stock AK-74 106 in 5.56 with a 1/7 is loaded with BH 75gr BTHP. This carbine has an Ultrimax gas tube allowing the addition of an EOtech making it fast and CQB effective. This round is very effective on non-armored targets, however it is a"poor" penetrater of automoble glass. Our men in the sandbox have reported on the 855 being able to penetrate this type of glass and still get the job done. That 's why I also have an AR with a 1/9 loaded with 855 and sporting an ACOG. As a "side note" there is no BTHP in 75-77 grain weights. All of that ammo is OTM, (Open Tip Match) so the JAG lawyers can rule that it does not violate an accord we never signed, or so I hear. Just what I'm comfortable with YMMV. ( Leave a set of peltors right next to your carbine:)
 
Second, the pelvis is a poor secondary target. There are fewer vital structures there and the ones that are there are smaller in size than the head.

In terms of lethality or immediate to very rapid fight stopping, the pelvis is certainly less optimal than the human head. On the other hand, the pelvis is a larger, less mobile target than the head, and tends to be a higher percentage shot under combat stress. For this reason, it's preferred by some very reputable real world gunfighters for failure drills.
 
The handgun is used to get to the shotgun to clear the house, and then the AR to clear the yard, and the .308 to clear the neighborhood

That's a lot of guns slung over your back when you hear a bump in the night.
 
HorseSoldier got it. A broken pelvis tends to make sure that your target stays put.

Again, the OP asked about m855 or m193 for HD. Bad idea compared to other options in .223 if you ask me regardless of their good military performance. Plenty of other stuff out there for thin skinned game where one need not worry about whether something is going to yaw passing through a wall. If you take away the walls/innocent by-stander issue, I'd up the ante to something .30 and 180+ grains for thin skinned game.

Frangibles are maybe the best choice for interior HD situations? Dunno.
 
As a general aside, what is confusing is that TAP ammo is not all "TAP Ammo". The lower weight TAP ammo are varmint bullets, but the higher-weight offerings are Hornady's OTM bullet. The former is less than ideal, but the latter is stellar.

After reading and rereading these threads, I'm still not sure what I want to do as far as getting together a stash of "good" SD/HD ammo (as opposed to the pile of NATO-spec FMJ I currently have), but it looks to me like Hornady's 75gr TAP is close to the top.

Mike

PS 16" 1:7 twist barrels on two uppers, and 16" 1:9 twist barrel on another.
 
Home defense

In .223 the best "home defense" for suburb's or where-ever you have close by neighbors I'd use hollowpoints only.... Like Hornady .75bthp or some .69s

If you were to miss and you probably will, as I doubt nobody wakes up at 4am jumps out of bed and makes the first shot hit on target. it takes you 5 minutes to gets your eyes working and another 30 for low-light/night vision to kick in.

if a Hollowpoint missed and hit a wall it more likely to mushroom quickly and either stop or if it penetrated the wall now being the size and shape of a dime it'd drop at a short distance or if not, hopefully hit a tree.

I buy some Lake city off and on at the place I get reloading supplies. If you shoot them into a treated 4x4, often if you look on the back you'll see a 1/16 size hole. while on the front you have a 1/4" hole
 
HorseSoldier said:
In terms of lethality or immediate to very rapid fight stopping, the pelvis is certainly less optimal than the human head. On the other hand, the pelvis is a larger, less mobile target than the head, and tends to be a higher percentage shot under combat stress. For this reason, it's preferred by some very reputable real world gunfighters for failure drills.

It is less mobile and larger; but when you get down to examining the critical structures inside the pelvis that supposedly make it a good target, the actual vital areas are quite small.

rino451 said:
]HorseSoldier got it. A broken pelvis tends to make sure that your target stays put.


Well, here is what Dr. Fackler has to say on the subject:

Fackler ML: "Shots to the Pelvic Area ". Wound Ballistics Review. 4(1):13; 1999. said:
“I welcome the chance to refute the belief that the pelvic area is a reasonable target during a gunfight. I can find no evidence or valid rationale for intentionally targeting the pelvic area in a gunfight. The reasons against, however, are many. They include:
-- From the belt line to the top of the head, the areas most likely to rapidly incapacitate the person hit are concentrated in or near the midline. In the pelvis, however, the blood vessels are located to each side, having diverged from the midline, as the aorta and inferior vena cava divide at about the level of the navel. Additionally, the target that, when struck, is the most likely to cause rapid and reliable incapacitation, the spinal cord located in the midline of the abdomen, thorax and neck), ends well above the navel and is not a target in the pelvis.
-- The pelvic branches of the aorta and inferior vena cava are more difficult to hit than their parent vessels -- they are smaller targets, and they diverge laterally from the midline (getting farther from it as they descend). Even if hit, each carry far less blood than the larger vessels from which they originated. Thus, even if one of these branches in the pelvis is hit, incapacitation from blood loss must necessarily be slower than from a major vessel hit higher up in the torso.
-- Other than soft tissue structures not essential to continuing the gunfight (loops of bowel, bladder) the most likely thing to be struck by shots to the pelvis would be bone. The ilium is a large flat bone that forms most of the back wall of the pelvis. The problem is that handgun bullets that hit it would not break the bone but only make a small hole in passing through it: this would do nothing to destroy bony support of the pelvic girdle. The pelvic girdle is essentially a circle: to disrupt its structure significantly would require breaking it in two places. Only a shot that disrupted the neck or upper portion of the shaft of the femur would be likely to disrupt bony support enough to cause the person hit to fall. This is a small and highly unlikely target: the aim point to hit it would be a mystery to those without medical training — and to most of those with medical training.

The “theory” stated in the question postulates that “certain autonomic responses the body undergoes during periods of stress” causes officers to shoot low, and that apparently this is good in a gunfight because such shots cause “severe disability.” I hope that the points presented above debunk the second part of the theory. As for the “autonomic responses” that cause officers to shoot low, I am unaware of anything in the anatomy or physiology of the autonomic nervous system that would even suggest such an occurrence. Most laymen do not understand the function of the autonomic nervous system. It is simply a system whose main function is to fine tune the glands and smooth muscles (those in the walls of organs and blood vessels) of the body. During times of stress such as perceived impending danger, the autonomic nervous system diverts blood from the intestines and digestive organs to the skeletal muscles — in the so-called “fight or flight” response. The effects of this response are constantly exaggerated by laymen who lack an adequate understanding of it — most notably by gun writers eager to impress their readers. Interestingly, the human body can get along quite well without major parts of the autonomic nervous system. During my professional life as a surgeon, myself and colleagues removed parts of thousands of vagus nerves (mostly in treating peptic ulcer disease) -- thus depriving the patient of the major part of the parasympathetic half of the autonomic nervous system. We also removed many ganglia from the sympathetic half of the auto-nomic nervous system, in treating such things as profusely excess sweating and various problems caused by spasm of the arteries. I am unaware of any evidence that these operations produced any significant effect on the future capacity of these patients to react appropriately in times of impending danger.

Unfortunately, the pelvis shot fallacy is common. This fallacy, along with other misinformation, is promoted constantly by at least one gun writer who is widely published in the popular gun press. Because of this, I regularly debunk this fallacy by including some of the above rationale in my presentations to law enforcement firearm instructor groups.”

Obviously, rational people can differ on what is effective; but I think that just the basic anatomy of the human body as described by Dr. Fackler makes a good case for why the torso or head is a better target.

Frangibles are maybe the best choice for interior HD situations?

Eh... frangibles in .223 are usually a horrible choice in my opinion. Most of them have serious reliability issues on just the range. On top of this, they still penetrate interior structures quite easily while remaining lethal and then penetrate very poorly in mostly liquid mediums like a human being. I recommend looking at that torso picture and the accompanying discussion of why 4-5" of penetration often isn't enough to get it done. The torso cross section makes it real obvious by showing you what is in the way of your vital areas if you have anything less than a perfect, unobstructed frontal shot.

DaveInFloweryBranchGA said:
Seems like to me a shotgun with double aught buckshot would be a much better and safer choice for one's neighbors.

That conversation is a frequent one here and there are dozens of threads dedicated to it, including several in the Rifle Forum Reading Library. Instead of dragging this thread off topic, I would ask any THR member interested to please revive one of those if they have an interest in continuing this oft discussed topic.
 
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