Our range may start using surveillance cameras

[Sam1911]

No one is willing to volunteer shifts as RO?

Ermmm... have you ever tried to get a few guys to show up for a work day -- twice a YEAR?

Now consider trying to find enough volunteers with nothing better to do than babysit a range 84 hours a week or so? And then who's going to train them in the club's policies and make sure they really do understand the best practices? Who's going to schedule their work sessions? And who's liable if an error happens on their watch? Or if they give bad advice and someone gets hurt?

I'm sure it works some places. Expecting to be able to staff a range like that as unpaid positions would be very optimistic.

 

[griff383]

The club I belong to is private and all RO's are on a 100% unpaid volunteer basis. It works because we are nearing 1000 members (if we havent hit it already) and have enough old timers that just hang out there anyways.

Sometimes there just arent enough personel to acomplish this in the smaller towns. If the behavior keeps up the range will close. It has happened to both my father-in-law and sisters local private/public ranges (seperate towns). People leave trash, shoot up anything, skip bullets over berms, ect ect.....

Really very sad people have no respect for the things they are afforded and even sadder they dont care that they are ruining it for those that can be responsible.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Until the funds arrive, put up a large sign that says "24 Surveillance".

Along these lines and the "fake camera housing" line, it is worth noting that businesses (typically parking garages) have been successfully sued by crime victims when a crime did occur and they discovered there were no cameras.

You might want to talk to a lawyer about any liability problems that might create for you in your state before you go that route,

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

In recent years we have noticed and increase in black rifles, HD shotguns useage, and a trend to more tactical practice techniques. With that trend we are seeing an increase in range bad behavior.

I agree with the poster that said that your club exists to serve the members. If there are members why want to practice HD shooting and rapid fire drills, it's high time your club looks at putting some changes into the rulebook. Don't equate bad range practice with people who want work on more realistic defense techniques, even if they're not your cup of tea. This post smacks of a "there's bad stuff going on so it must be those other shooters, not 'gentlemen' like me" attitude.

Well those other shooters, from the content of your first post, are paying club members. I assume your club wants to keep collecting their dues?

 

[buck460XVR]

Well those other shooters, from the content of your first post, are paying club members. I assume your club wants to keep collecting their dues?

Just because folks pay dues, it doesn't give them the right to be irresponsible, unsafe, and to break the rules. In our situation, most of those with bad habits lose their membership. Part of our rules. The problem is identifying those that break the rules and damage property(littering, shooting the garbage cans, range signs and glass bottles) when no-one is around. Again, in our case it is more a problem with non-members that use the range for free, when no-one else is around, than those of us that pay dues and are active in the organization. We decided against the use of fake cameras and/or posters claiming they were in use. Instead, for the meantime, since the trap roof shooting incident, we are using donated motion activated trail cams that take pics of the vehicles coming into the parking lot and of those using the range at times when the range is unsupervised, and feel it is better folks don't know they're there.

 

[esquare]

I would suggest two things. First, if target stands are getting shot up, then the obvious answer is to not leave them at the range. Just don't leave anything at the range and each person will then bring their own and can do with it as they please.

I would suggest a camera for incoming/outgoing traffic do get license plates along with a camera for the range itself. That way you can have a shred of hope of finding those that break the rules.

The other thing that you might want to consider is fencing the area and providing members with key card access through a person-sized gate, if this is a private range.

 

[Old krow]

First off, IMHO, I'm against the camera option personally. It might get the job done, but with consequences.

The worst that our club faces is occasionally the target posts will get beat up pretty badly. There's nothing that I have seen to make me believe that it was intentional and not just bad shooting. It doesn't mean that it doesn't happen though, just that I didn't see it. We have the occasional using of shotguns on ranges that specifically prohibit them. That's about all we really have as far as bad manners.

The other thing that you might want to consider is fencing the area and providing members with key card access through a person-sized gate, if this is a private range.

We use a gate with a key code. Everyone is issued a pin. They can look and see what time you come and went. We also have the RSO and other Officers on speed dial so we can call if we see something. Most people would say something about it. And the phone numbers are posted on the gates in case someone NEEDS to get in for an emergency or some knucklehead is shooting after hours and the neighbors get upset, they can go get the numbers and call.

In the event that something did happen, they can narrow it down to a few people pretty quickly and go from there. I understand that it is a reactive measure vs a proactive one. However, there are multiple ways to look at it. One of the reasons that I do not like cameras is because at some point I will have to hear someone that wants to ban guns say; "see, they can't even be trusted on range without cameras, why do we need to let them carry guns?" We should be better than this.

I agree that volunteer shifts would be a headache at best and could present some potential legal problems.

 

[Rembrandt]

Target frames are not portable, they're permanent. Entrance to the club has an electronic gate, members must use a code number to enter.

Part of the problem is the college students who bring a car load of their (non-member) buddies out to shoot. You can't even imagine the immaturity and blatant disregard for rules from people who have just left home and conspire with their piers to thwart any form of authority. Someday when they grow up and get the bill for the stupidity of others, maybe they'll understand.

This range has been in use by the members for over 60 years, we have a pretty good idea of what works and doesn't. Catching the perps is what we hope a camera system could solve. Thanks for all the comments from those who have cameras on their ranges, it helps to know what problems could arise.

 

[Airborne Falcon]

We've had cameras at our indoor range for some time. Caught a guy on video committing suicide with a rental gun on lane ten a couple of years ago.

Recently we installed cameras at one of my gun club outdoor ranges as well - it was past time to do it with a couple of thousand members and increased trespassing at night and the accompanying vandalism.

Not only that, but our insurance company had started applying pressure for purposes of having any accidents video'd for whatever reasons - although we have had very few accidents over the years, knock on wood.

We've already caught some nearby local teenage kids climbing the fence at night and breaking into one of the classrooms as well as trashing some of our target frames and one of the water fountains. We had them picked-up and arrested and that seemed to send a signal because we have not had a problem since in that regard.

We have already had some very unsafe practices caught on video as well that we were able to confront one or two shooters with by comparing who had clocked in using their magnetic cards to get into the range at the same time. It was really kind of shocking to see what some people were doing when they were out there by themselves.

 

[EddieNFL]

Our club has had them for several years now. We average two or three "busts" each year that otherwise would remain unsolved.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

I can find no fault, provided there is visible signage to inform you.

 

[essayons21]

My private range has a gate which is accessed by a pin or a swipe card, so there are time stamps of who is at the range when. If something bad happens, it isn't too hard to narrow down the time range and see who was there and start asking questions. There is also a game cam at the entrance which snaps pictures of cars as they go by.

A game cam is a low cost alternative to a security camera set-up, especially if your range doesn't have very high traffic.

 

[loop]

I'm on the board of directors of our range and we just voted last week to install cameras.

The reasoning has little to do with people damaging property, although if it deters that sort of behavior it is a plus.

Two weeks ago one of our guests was injured and lost both eyes. I cannot go into details due to legal issues, but we decided to install cameras so that we can have a visual record of incidents that may result in injury or property damage.

We have a 740-acre range and on duty range officers at all times the range is open, but they cannot be everywhere all the time. It is more than a mile from our pistol and small bore range to the archery range and even farther to the cowboy action range. The logistics of supervising the range for safety are staggering. Cameras will be a huge help to our ROs.

 

[44Dave]

Ermmm... have you ever tried to get a few guys to show up for a work day -- twice a YEAR?

Now consider trying to find enough volunteers with nothing better to do than babysit a range 84 hours a week or so? And then who's going to train them in the club's policies and make sure they really do understand the best practices? Who's going to schedule their work sessions? And who's liable if an error happens on their watch? Or if they give bad advice and someone gets hurt?

I'm sure it works some places. Expecting to be able to staff a range like that as unpaid positions would be very optimistic.

My public range is 100% volunteer RO, of which I am one.

 

[Sam1911]

My public range is 100% volunteer RO, of which I am one.

Public range? Is that a commercial, for-profit range? Or a publicly owned range on state lands?

Is it open whether you (or another volunteer) are there or not? Do you have any actual authority? Can you actually stop someone from shooting there? Who grants that authority? Who schedules your work sessions?

Who provides YOU with liability coverage for accidents that happen on your watch in spite of (or because of) your instruction/actions?

 

[InkEd]

I think if used for the intended purposes the cameras are fine. I have no problem with a private place surveying their own property. I can understand not allowing non-traditional targets because of the mess. (However, it is much more satisfying to plink at bottles and junk than just paper all the time.)


I would really LOVE a nice range the would let me shoot whatever targets I wish, as long as I clean it up.

 

[xcgates]

The range I went to in NY recently put in cameras, because we were having vandalization problems, partly due to the fact there is no gate.

However, just in general, I think a bigger deterrent would be for people to realize that the local cops tend to wander on over when they hear someone shooting, either just to make sure people are being safe, or to shoot the breeze. I haven't seen them shoot while in uniform, but they do shoot there on their off time.

 

[EddieNFL]

The reasoning has little to do with people damaging property, although if it deters that sort of behavior it is a plus.

About a month ago we had an member bring several unauthorized guests to the range and proceed to intentionally break most of the written rules. They literally mocked the cameras. Thanks to the video we were able to identify the member and pass the info to his commander (we're on a military installation). His commander, who shoots my IDPA match, told me he also IDed the others and was taking appropriate action. He can't say and I won't ask, but I'm bettin' Article 15.

 

[7thCavScout]

I feel your pain. I spent my first 30 minutes at the range this weekend picking up the pieces of a microwave oven and an electronic dart board, that some Jack Wagon had shot up.

 

[52grain]

I assume that the private club in question has liability insurance. I can't believe that the insurance company hasn't required them yet. The cameras may have some value as deterrent, but it's good to have a video of an accident.

I usually shoot at a DNR range, and it has several (very high quality) cameras.

Also, a decent alternative to trash targets would be clay pigeons. They biodegrade and aren't terribly expensive. You could also look into steel targets.

 

[788Ham]

I belong to an local gun club, 250 members total. Membership is granted by "invitation only", you go before the membership, explain your wants, as far as shooting rifle/pistol/shotgun, then members vote on your wanted membership. One you're voted into the club, a numbered card is given to you, which has to be worn at all times when at the range, if you forgot it, you go get it! The range has 2 members on staff at all times during the daylight hours, usually volunteers. These volunteers take monies from non-members for shooting privileges, one "must" show ID w/picture, sign an non liability form and sign it, no sign it, no shoot. There are also 2 police shooting ranges on the sight, most times they are out for monthly qual. shooting, so if anyone gets rowdy, we always have someone with authority close by. Foolishness is not allowed at any time, most members will tell the trouble maker one time, then the next meeting its discussed if your membership should be pulled, about 350 people waiting in line to take your open spot! There is a locked gate to get in, if not open use your code, if not open, you wait on another member, if a guest, you come with member or wait for member outside the gate.

With the police/members always on sight, at the present time cameras aren't warranted, they've been talked about, but currently funds not available. Honor code is the biggest thing among members, screw up, you're gone!

 

[44Dave]

Public range? Is that a commercial, for-profit range? Or a publicly owned range on state lands?

City owned on city land. Admission is paid to utilize the facility.

Is it open whether you (or another volunteer) are there or not?

No, the rifle/pistol ranges will not be open if there is not a safety officer present. Interestingly, the trap/skeet ranges don't even have RO's (that I am aware of). I guess trap/skeet is viewed as idiot proof.

Do you have any actual authority? Can you actually stop someone from shooting there?

Yes, we can eject people or even ban them - with reason, of course. We can't ban people just because we don't like them.

Who grants that authority?

The park superintendent.

Who schedules your work sessions?

Mostly it is self regulated by the volunteers. It works quite well because we have people who are dedicated to making sure the park survives. We know that what the city giveth, the city can also taketh. There is a large enough pool that, while there is an occasional crunch, generally makes sure shifts are covered. Not 100%.

Who provides YOU with liability coverage for accidents that happen on your watch in spite of (or because of) your instruction/actions?

I believe the city does, though now I'm going to have to look it up just to make sure...