PA "no gun" signage

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JohnnyGrey

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As far as I can tell, no gun signs in PA do not carry the weight of law. The clause that people interpret differently is that it is an offense to carry into places "where prohibited". Some people including myself interpret it to mean places prohibited by law, because nobody can preempt the state's law, not a city, not a private organization. I've had a bar owner tell me it was prohibited by law to enter his establishment, so I just left. He did not have a no gun sign up, but told me that I could have lost my permit if he wasn't such a nice guy. I was under the impression that the owner could ask me to leave, and if I did so peacefully, I would break no law. So do no gun signs carry the weight of law in PA?
 
In short I don't know. But I wanted to add something from PA that is consistant with what you have stated above. "No Trespassing" signs must be posted on private property if you want have it carry the weight of the law. This is always an issue concerning hunting and fishing. Signs must be posted at specified intervals and locations as well. Texas for example has a state law forbidding tresspassing and no signs must be posted to be enforced.

I do think that a person who carries a firearm should respect the wishes of the property owner regardless of the law.
 
The clause that people interpret differently is that it is an offense to carry into places "where prohibited".

JohnnyGrey, which part of the PA code contains the clause you mention? I'm looking, but can't find it. The only off-limits places I have found otherwise have been schools and courts (as well as the Allegheny County airport, which I think actually violates the preemption law, but that's neither here nor there).
 
I do think that a person who carries a firearm should respect the wishes of the property owner regardless of the law.

I only respect no gun signs where the property owner can assure me that no other guns are about and/or he takes full legal responsibility for my safety. Short of that, what he doesn't see won't hurt him.

I used to have a delivery job where I'd have to go to many different places and I wouldn't know if guns were prohibited until I got there. I carried into many places with no gun signs. One of these places was my place of employment itself. It's a national chain, so the no-gun thing came from the higher ups, but even my boss had a Beretta 92 in the office. I told my boss that if he or the company wouldn't guarantee my safety, I was going to carry. He was fine with it. The only buildings I disarmed in were primary and secondary schools, as required by law.
 
I think the "where prohibited" clause comes from the section which details how permits are granted and under which conditions they may be revoked. I'm having trouble finding it.
 
"No Trespassing" signs must be posted on private property if you want have it carry the weight of the law. This is always an issue concerning hunting and fishing. Signs must be posted at specified intervals and locations as well.

This is not true for Alabama. Property is posted by LAW and signs DO NOT have to be posted! If you are caught trespassing without written permission you can be arrested and prosecuted.
 
Basically, my somewhat tenuous understanding is that you open yourself up to a charge of criminal trespass if discovered to be armed, AND asked to leave AND you refuse.

I'm interested in hearing if that understanding is substantially incorrect.

I also note that there are some signs that are fundamentally unenforcable.

For example, Penn's Landing in PHL is marked "no weapons", but Penn's Landing is -public- property, whose administration is delegated to a private company, and there is no authority to prohibit the carriage of arms on the sidewalk.
 
"No weapons" signs mean nothing in PA. They carry no legal weight. It is also not illegal to carry in a bar.

However, if asked to leave you must......or you could be cited for trespass.
 
SJG26 - right, I forgot casinos. Not that I have plans to spend a lot of time in a casino, but you are correct.
 
Wait, when did they legalize gambling? I must be really behind on the times.

Anyway, there is nothing about carrying where prohibited in the PA statutes.

(i) Revocation.--A license to carry firearms may be revoked by the issuing authority for good cause. A license to carry firearms shall be revoked by the issuing authority for any reason stated in subsection (e)(1) which occurs during the term of the permit. Notice of revocation shall be in writing and shall state the specific reason for revocation. Notice shall be sent by certified mail, and, at that time, a copy shall be forwarded to the commissioner. An individual whose license is revoked shall surrender the license to the issuing authority within five days of receipt of the notice. An individual whose license is revoked may appeal to the court of common pleas for the judicial district in which the individual resides. An individual who violates this section commits a summary offense.

And the (e)1 lists the people who cannot be issued a CCW. If you become one of those people, your license may be revoked.

(e) Issuance of license.--

(1) A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle and shall be issued if, after an investigation not to exceed 45 days, it appears that the applicant is an individual concerning whom no good cause exists to deny the license. A license shall not be issued to any of the following:

(i) An individual whose character and reputation is such that the individual would be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety.
(ii) An individual who has been convicted of an offense under the act of April 14, 1972 (P.L.233, No.64), known as The Controlled Substance, Drug, Device and Cosmetic Act.
(iii) An individual convicted of a crime enumerated in section 6105.
(iv) An individual who, within the past ten years, has been adjudicated delinquent for a crime enumerated in section 6105 or for an offense under The Controlled Substance, Drug, Device and Cosmetic Act.
(v) An individual who is not of sound mind or who has ever been committed to a mental institution.
(vi) An individual who is addicted to or is an unlawful user of marijuana or a stimulant, depressant or narcotic drug.
(vii) An individual who is a habitual drunkard.
(viii) An individual who is charged with or has been convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year except as provided for in section 6123 (relating to waiver of disability or pardons).
(ix) A resident of another state who does not possess a current license or permit or similar document to carry a firearm issued by that state if a license is provided for by the laws of that state, as published annually in the Federal Register by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms of the Department of the Treasury under 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(19) (relating to definitions).
(x) An alien who is illegally in the United States.
(xi) An individual who has been discharged from the armed forces of the United States under dishonorable conditions.
(xii) An individual who is a fugitive from justice. This subparagraph does not apply to an individual whose fugitive status is based upon nonmoving or moving summary offense under Title 75 (relating to vehicles.)
(xiii) An individual who is otherwise prohibited from possessing, using, manufacturing, controlling, purchasing, selling or transferring a firearm as provided by section 6105.
 
Its not in the statutes....its a policy. This is from a post I made on another board;

There has been some discussion about the (legal) carrying of weapons in casinos in PA. As stated before, this weapons ban is a regulation of the Pennsylvania Gaming Control Board (PGCB) and not a "law".

When I went into work today there was a fax from the Comm Center put out by PSP in reference to the carrying of firearms in the casino, directed towards law enforcement officers, but you will see where it can be applied to non-LEO's.

Briefly, the PGCB has a "no firearms on the gaming floor" policy except for on duty LEO's while acting in an official capacity, etc. There is a little more information involved with this, but it is not needed for this thread.

According to the information received, off-duty LEO's shall have to comply with the private property Gaming Control Board (GCB) requirement that no weapons are allowed on the Gaming floor.

* The PGCB and the casinos have a "No Firearms on the Casino Floor Policy".
* This is a regulation by the PGCB and does not overrule state law that allows police officers to carry firearms.
* However, this is private property and the weapons ban is in place.
* Violations of the private property PGCB rule will be dealt with by asking the licensed individuals or police officers to leave the floor and store their weapon - then return to gaming.
* Individuals refusing to comply with the wishes of the private property owner-casino will be asked to leave the premises.
* Should the refuse, they are subject to arrest for Defiant Trespass.

As you can see, this pretty much follows what can happen with carrying in malls, etc in the state. I posted this little FYI to be read and understood by those wishing to carry. I am not advocating carrying in the casino, that is personal choice you and only you can make. What I will or will not do is my business, and mine alone.
 
Steve: thank you for that clarification.

As a citizen who strives to be informed, I am grateful for as many hard facts as I can get, rather than having to choose my actions based on myth and innuendo.
 
Has anyone seen a definitive answer on the PA State Parks question?

I know it's only a park service regulation, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't suck to get nailed.

I know the Sheriff of my county made a point to politely direct LTCF holders to stay out of trouble with law enforcement of any sort as an infraction considered "serious" would be grounds for revoking the license. I would imagine that being charged with violating either of these "regulations" -- even if they are in conflict with the state preemption law, would be such grounds. I suppose if you were to win the test case in PA Supreme Court several years (and several tens of thousands of dollars) after the arrest, you could then apply to have your permit reinstated. Greaaaaaaat.

A quote from another board
As the previous posters have stated, the only non-federal OFF LIMITS places are as follows:

* State Parks - per DCNR Reg

* K-12 Schools - per State Law

* Court Facilities - per State Law

* Pittsburgh International Airport - per County Ordinance

* State Capitol Buildings - per State Capitol Police

And, according to the best legal argument I've read, 18 USC 930 does not apply to US Postal Service facilities, but rather 39 CFR 232.1 -- thus upholding the long standing convention that the Post Office is a no-no.

Also, don't forget the National Parks here in PA. For example, be very careful in and around Gettysburg. Thousands of acres enveloping most of the town are against Federal law to carry into/through/on.

But otherwise, PA is just about the best of the lot.

Stay safe!

Oh, and is there any way to have our friendly legislators shake the cobwebs off the State Preemption law and call SCP, DCNR, etc. on their conflict? Or do we just have to wait for some deep-pockets type to win the test case?
 
Actually, Sam, I think you've rounded up all the stray loose ends, most of which appear to stand in defiance of either state pre-emption, or are untested in courts, such as the ambiguous "lawful purposes" defense re: carry in k-12 schools.

The other common loose end is the many courthouses that do not provide arms lockers as provided by law, and the technicality the courts let the state police handgun "not a registry" thing slide on.

They're all fixable, but it would take time, money and focus.
 
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