Paper cartridge papers,wad and glue questions please

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Tallbald

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A little shy about saying so, but I now have four beautiful stainless Ruger Old Army's, the latest of which was a gift form my loving wife Penny and is a handsome fixed sight high gloss 7 1/2 inch specimen. I now want to venture into paper cartridge making and have been watching Youtube videos to learn different methods.
The price of cigarette rolling papers makes for a pricey cartridge(I guess there's a blossoming market in Colorado and Washington).
In one paper cartridge making video I've seen hair curling papers used for the paper cone, with a plain tissue paper rear end section to allow fire to reach the powder. I called a beauty supply shop and these a $3 for 1000 papers, making them very economical. Do you suppose there are different thicknesses and materials in different hair roller papers between makers? Also, they use stick style glue to make the cones. Is the glue just a paper paste like we used in kindergarten or does it dry more like stiff hard white glue? Would one be better than the other?
I've not seen it done, but I want to insert a waxed felt wad between powder and bullet. Since some makers use cereal filler to take up space in paper cartridges, can anyone tell me why a wad is not a good idea? I prefer wads under the ball instead of grease over the ball when shooting regularly, and make my own wads as taught here, for economy.
Last, I'm buying a Lee .45 caliber REAL 200 mold (not the conical but the almost pointy-top trashcan looking one, DC45CAL-200). These are what I want to use for cartridges as well as roundball. Sound like a good plan?
Thanks as always. Don
 
I made a video last weekend about making paper cartridges. If you use nitrated paper you can simply fold and glue the bottom of the cartridge (I think the video explains it better than I do in writing). I use water glass (sodium silicate) because it is period correct, but a glue stick or liquid glue will work fine, as long as you use a small amount in the bottom.

With unnitrated papers the best option is to make an open cone and insert a thin cigarette or tissue paper to act as bottom. This enables the flame from the cap to penetrate the paper. A similar principle was used on some original cartridges as well. Please note that the sides of coned cartridges will crack when rammed down the chamber. This will expose powder and help ignite the powder.

Lately I have used plain newsprint paper for making cartridges – both nitrated and unnitrated. Hair curler paper works fine too, as does most types of thin paper. The best thing I've used is paper from French company H & C, but that's flash paper, not traditional nitrated paper. See the ignition test in the video that compares flash paper and nitrated paper.

Regarding wads, they are difficult to load in a paper cartridge since they are most often coned. Good wads are also oversized compared to the chamber, which is another reason why they are difficult to incorporate into a cartridge. If you find a good method, please let me know. As an alternative you can dip the cartridges in molten lubricant.

The video is supposed to be accompanied by a lenghty article about making cartridges. The copy is ready; I just need to shoot the last photos. I will post it here when it's published.



And here are the cartridges in action:

 
Great stuff Mr. O

I've considered magicians flash paper, but can't it go poof "accidentally", plus is it not more expensive than other alternatives?

TB
I dont see why you couldn't use a wad, but I dont think it is absolutely neccessary, as long as there is no airspace in the chamber when the bullet is rammed home, YMMY.
 
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Yes, that's a valid concern regarding flash paper. I've heard that spontaneous combustion may occur, but haven't experienced it myself. Another thing is that it's made the same way as gun cotton i.e. soaked in a solution of nitric acid and sulphuric acid. That again means that the flash paper is a mild form of smokeless powder.
 
My experiments in paper cartridges were flubs so I'll pass on that subject.

As far as the REAL 200 gr. bullets are concerned, they are less accurate in my ROA than round balls or flat top SWC type 255 gr. bullets. I was searching for an accurate hunting load for deer with a heavy bullet. The REAL allows for more powder than the 255 gr FT but wasn't as accurate. I used 21 gr. of BlackHorn 209 with Doak's capsules and small rifle primers. I killed one small buck with this combo.
 
I made and used paper cartridges using curling papers. For my self they did not offer any advantage to using the speed loaders from Winchester Sutler. That's just me though and one needs to arrive at their own conclusions.

As to the Lee R.E.A.L 200 grain bullet. It is a .452 and a slip fit in the ROA chamber. I gave up on it. It also did not seem to work well in a 45C case as there is no way to crimp the bullet. Both uses allowed too much bullet creep and potential cylinder jamming. The bullet was designed to rifle engrave itself while be ramrodded down a rifle barrel. I had 4 20 round boxes of a very similar bullet, pre lubed with bore butter, TC Maxi Balls, left over from the days I hunted with a 45Cal Cherokee. Tried one box in the ROA, recycled the remainder into round balls. There again that is my own experience with using other than rounds balls in the ROA.

If you want the Lee mold pm me. Got one for sale at a reduced price. Or I'll ship you a supply of bullets for the cost of the postage.
 
I'd just like to add that Oyvind is worth listening to, & his book is a very good read, esp. if you're just thinking about getting into BP and are curious as to why anyone would bother. His book explaining the development of BP small arms really makes the historical aspect of BP shooting come alive. :)
 
The 45 cal REAL is fine for the ROA but too big for the Italian 44 cal C&Bs. You need the 44 cal REAL for them which is no longer made. Also you need to be sure that when you cast the REALs that you get full filling of the driving bands or the bullet will be under sized and will migrate forward under recoil (aka "ball creep") and jam the cylinder.
 
One reason I would not use prelubed wads for paper cartridges is over time I suppose the lube can seep into the powder and cause ignition problems or inconsistant burn. I would imagine the lube can also moisten the paper around it making the paper cartridge weaker and prone to breaking apart.

I also like wads and I do like bore butter too. When using prelubed wads which rest on top of the powder, if you shoot soon enough after loading you are fine.

One of the advantages of paper bullets aside from fast and convenient hassle free loading that I can think of is being able to store these pre measured fast loads for a good period of time until needed.

I like the idea of paper cartridges and making them looks like fun.
 
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papers glue etc

If you are just starting out and want to just try the procedure, then cigarette papers, elmers glue stick, and cottom thread are all you need.
You will also need a 7/16 wood dowel about 6 to 8" long tapered down like a pencil, leaving the tip about 1/4" thick and a small block of wood with a series of holes in it to stand the tubes up in while filling.
you will need to apply a polish to the taper so the paper slides off easily. some use beeswax, but I think it is too stick.
Urethane, or eve hard bar soap works and pledge or other wood wax.

Once you get the hang of it, it is pretty simple.

The speed load tubes are arguably faster and reusable, but are more expensive and how many of them do you want to buy and carry.
They are as bulky empty as loaded.

The paper cartridges are just something to do while sitting around watching TV.

as to the ROA vs the other common BP C&B revolvers.

Most are happy with .451 or .454 RB very few really need the oversized .457
ball. Just harder to force in.

the ROA on the otherhand does prefer a .455 to .457 projectile.

The new Lee 45-200 is an improvement over the original as they have slightly rebated the base to make it easier to load.

But jumping up to a 220 255 gr bullet isn't really necessary.
The taller bullet, makes on gun loading more difficult as it does not readily fit into the loading area on most of the replicas (ROA not sure as don't have one). This is normally remedied by using a dremel or file to enlarge the opening and reblue the area. Or loading off gun.
Plus that extra height has to be pushed further down into the chamber, so as the nose will be flush or slightly below the chamber surface, thus you will likely lose some powder capacity, which in turn defeats the larger bullet, by reducing powder you reduce velocity and impact force.
Just how much is determined by each of you and your gun.
However, I do know of a place to get some pure lead bullets that Apparently work sufficiently well in both ROA and others.
 
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cheaper paper?

Even here all up in the hood we can get TOPS cigarette papers at the liquor store for 1 cent each. Dollar for a hundred sheets, I've been rolling my own cigs for many years. The 'boutique' papers the kids use for pot are more expensive. You can glue two single sheets together if needed and it's still 2 cents a cartridge.
 
The article I mentioned earlier is now published and can be found here: Making paper cartridges for cap & ball revolvers.

The article has almost 50 pictures that are hidden in different slideshows. Here are some of them:

rulling31_stor.jpg
rulling22_stor.jpg
rulling02_stor.jpg

I've also made a rather geeky video that shows how you can make a paper template that will fit your coned cartridge forming dowel perfectly:

 
Let's not make this complicated.

If $0.02 per paper is too expensive, you need to give up shooting until you can afford it. Available at that price (including shipping) on eBay right now. Bugler papers.

Make a tube around a 3/8" dowel with the bottom end tapered down a bit. Twist the end closed. Snip tail off.

Place tube closed end down in empty 45 acp brass.

When sufficient paper tubes in brass are ready, fill each with charge (as you like - filler, no filler, etc. From dipper.

Top powder with .430" card wad, available from Circle Fly. Very cheap. Drop a dollop of lube (beeswax, Crisco, oil) on top of card wad.

Snip top off paper tube leaving enough paper to roughly fold over lube.

Retain in 45 acp brass.

Load paper cartridge pressing down with finger into chamber. Load ball or conical. Ram home.

The only thing you have to check is that the powder column, with or without filler , is sufficient to bottom out and be bumped out to fill in the chamber when rammed home.

Very simple. Very reliable. Very cheap.
 
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Anyone know where to get flash paper that is used to make paper cartridges ? After rearing all these threads on this subject you guys have made me mighty interested in trying to make some for my ss ROA.
WFH
 
Oyvind said:
The article I mentioned earlier is now published and can be found here: Making paper cartridges for cap & ball revolvers.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link to the article [and your wonderful book, too, btw! Enjoyed reading it very much!]

These two paragraphs in the article need to be merged, because as is, they're repetitive. And redundant. ;) [emphasis added for clarity]

The loads used back then were in most cases a bit stiffer than those used by modern competition shooters. While a modern shooter shooting an original Remington New Army often uses about 18 to 20 grains FFFg or Swiss #2, the military loads typically ranged from 25 to 30 grains and a conical ball – depending on manufacturer. This does not mean that the original loads were more accurate compared to today's competition loads, because roundballs in most cases prove more accurate than conical balls. But if light roundball loads are more accurate, why didn't soldiers rely on this in combat instead of hard conical ball loads? The answer is easy: The revolvers were made to kill and some of the accuracy was traded off for power.

Although bullet moulds for both Remington and Colt percussion revolvers had cavities for one roundball and one conical ball, roundball cartridges were apparently never manufactured for military purposes, and they were not common on the civilian market either. But why didn't soldiers in the mid-1800s use roundballs instead if they were more accurate? The answer is simple: The revolvers were made to kill a man or horse, and some of the accuracy was traded off for power.
Click to expand...
 
wf4933 said:
Anyone know where to get flash paper that is used to make paper cartridges ?
Click to expand...

Magic shop. Or you can get your own concentrated sulfuric & nitric acids from an industrial supply & make your own? Nah, most people don't want to go down that road.

Nitrated paper is easier, & while it will leave some ash & doesn't burn quite as quickly, it's not like it is supposed to contribute anything to the propulsion of the bullet. And it will definitely be entirely consumed by the heat of the BP going off: the point to using nitrated paper vs. any other untreated wrapping for making the paper carts is so that there are no lingering embers when you get around to reloading after firing off a cylinderful... ;)
 
RPRNY said:
Nitrated paper is unnecessary. Cigarette papers work perfectly fine.
Click to expand...

Perfectly expensive too! :banghead:

Anyone know where I can get some Big Bamboo in bulk? :D

Nitrated may not be necessary, but it is up to the individual to decide if it's preferred. Worthwhile to explore all your options.

Me, I'm going to experiment w/ some nitrated onionskin [who else remembers carbon copies? Manual typewriters? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? ;)] and nitro lacquer. :)
 
Contemporary military manuals and sources talk about "nitrated paper" for revolver cartridges, but could this be paper treated with nitric and sulfuric acid (flash paper) rather than paper saturated in potassium nitrate? This method, that later was used to make gun cotton, was discovered by accident by German scientist Christian Friedrich Schönbein in the mid-1840s and should have been known for the US armouries by the time of the Civil War.

While flash paper is known to be considerably more unstable compared to paper saturated with potassium nitrate, this could possibly explain why Colt and other manufacturers used the solid wooden blocks that separated each cartridge.

Does anyone have access to sources that can shed light on this?
 
Oyvind said:
Contemporary military manuals and sources talk about "nitrated paper" for revolver cartridges, but could this be paper treated with nitric and sulfuric acid (flash paper) rather than paper saturated in potassium nitrate? This method, that later was used to make gun cotton, was discovered by accident by German scientist Christian Friedrich Schönbein in the mid-1840s and should have been known for the US armouries by the time of the Civil War.

While flash paper is known to be considerably more unstable compared to paper saturated with potassium nitrate, this could possibly explain why Colt and other manufacturers used the solid wooden blocks that separated each cartridge.

Does anyone have access to sources that can shed light on this?
Click to expand...

I'd also be interestd to know if there are any sources on this as I've tried to answer the same questions myself. I came up empty handed in terms of solid evidence one way or the other (or both!).

One circumstantial piece of evidence is that nitrated paper/nitrocellulose is not chemically inert and slowly degrades over time. The fact that we still have some intact paper cartridges that are over 150 years old suggests to me that at least not all paper cartridges used nitrocellulose paper.
 
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