georgeduz
Member
please dont try to smoke it
Paper Cartridges, step by step photos..
- Thread starter timuchin
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Smokin_Gun
Member
HUNH???georgeduz said:
armoredman
Member
Very cool - if I ever get another BP revolver, I may try this! It would be funny to walk into a "smoke shop" in uniform, and ask for some rolling papers....
I just happened by this post while looking for something else... but glad I did. Really good instruction. Makes me want to give it a try.
Just one question. I would guess with this cartridge you wouldn't need either the wad or the grease seal. Chain fire is usually caused... maybe, so I've read.. by caps coming off of the nipples rather than fire transfer from the front end. But... just wondered the general opinion with this way of loading as to additional safety considerations.
Just one question. I would guess with this cartridge you wouldn't need either the wad or the grease seal. Chain fire is usually caused... maybe, so I've read.. by caps coming off of the nipples rather than fire transfer from the front end. But... just wondered the general opinion with this way of loading as to additional safety considerations.
Well, I tried it and they work great. I even convinced one of my friends to try it, he was a bit skeptical at first but is a convert.
I roll the papers before inserting the ball. I just fold the paper to the gum line, fold the gum line over, gum it, and let it dry. Then I open it, push a ball down, and put the powder in. Works like a charm.
Bummer
I roll the papers before inserting the ball. I just fold the paper to the gum line, fold the gum line over, gum it, and let it dry. Then I open it, push a ball down, and put the powder in. Works like a charm.
Bummer
Duncaninfrance
Member
A friend at my club gave me a copy of the December Issue of a French mag called Action Arms & TIR which has an article on paper cartridge making. I am trying to get a translated version but in the mean time here are 2 pics from the article which might answer JohnKsa's question.
Will post more if I get a translation.
Duncan
Will post more if I get a translation.
Duncan
Attachments
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Interesting!
That paper looks much heavier--almost like a light cardstock.
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Interesting!
That paper looks much heavier--almost like a light cardstock.
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Duncaninfrance
Member
I have been in touch with the author of the article who is going to do a rusumé of it in English which he says I am welcome to post. If any of you guys want a copy of the French article let me have an e.mail address and I will send it. It is a PDF file of 3 pages with photographs.
Duncan
Duncan
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Thanks Duncan
Hi, Duncan:
I would like to have a copy of that article.
My e-mail address is [email protected]
Thanks.
Chubbo
Hi, Duncan:
I would like to have a copy of that article.
My e-mail address is [email protected]
Thanks.
Chubbo
Smokin_Gun
Member
If you mean in a Muzzleloading rifle or pistol .. the answer is yes with no wad needed, BUT...I recommend you tear the end off that you stuff into the muzzle...As was done in the Civil War. Lest Ye May have trouble ifin it don't fire after a few caps or frizzins...(and it won't shoot out)
Singing Bear
Member
Aloha! Just found this forum and this thread and thought I'd share a few things, if y'all don't mind.
I've been making paper cartridges for years, but it's the tear n pour type. I use bugler rolling papers for the tube and use white glue to glue the 454 round ball in. Sorry no pics, but here's what I do.
For 44 cal. I use a 3/8 wood dowel wrapped a couple of times with 2" masking tape. It's about the right diameter for a 454 round ball to slide in. I wrap a paper around the dowel with the adhesive strip opposite the end of the dowel and on the inside of the tube. White glue the edge and seal to make a tube. Slide the tube up about 3/8", glue the inside edge and slide a ball in till it's half way. Remove the tube and let dry for about 5 minutes. Charge the tube with powder, dampen the adhesive strip and press to seal.
For 36 cal., it's the same procedure except you use just a plain 3/8" dowel. No tape.
To load, I tear the end off with my teeth, pour the powder into the chamber, bunch up the paper tube under the ball and seat the whole thang. The paper does not act as a wad. Here's the reason.
No wad or lube is used. If you have a cylinder with out of round chambers, you could get chainfires from the front. Happened to me with 2 different guns. Both shaved nice round rings of lead, but when I tested them with a mag light, they showed large gaps between the seated ball and the chamber walls. Large gaps. Plenty enough to allow sparks to set off the charge. Rolling paper being nitrated is lousy for stopping sparks. I load these guns with loose powder and wads. No chainfire problems.
Here's some tips. Check out online stores like esmokes for rolling papers. They sell them by the carton and you pretty much get a lifetime's supply in one carton. My buglers come 100 leaves per pack, 24 packs per carton. Buglers are about the least expensive and found them to be a little more sturdy for all the handling it goes through. ZZ being the most fragile. No more "yeah, right." looks at the convenience store.
Elmer's while glue works plenty good enough for glueing the ball into the tube. I "cut" mine with a few drops of water and use a toothpick to spread it. I've had to soak ruined cartridges to salvage the ball. It stuck that good.
If you're not going to use a wad or over powder lube, please check your chambers to make sure they're true. Just remove the nipples, seat the balls to the desired depth, hold the chamber up to a small flashlight and look through the nipple hole. If there're gaps, you'll see a lighted crescent, or two, to the side of the chamber. That would be a gap between the ball the chamber wall. Larger balls will not work as the chamber mouth will shave it the same as it would a slightly smaller ball, ie, 454 vs. 457. True chambers will allow no light. Just because a chamber mouth shaves a nice ring off the ball does not always mean a good seal in the chamber. There are the few cylinders out there with bad chambers. Not many, but enough that I would advise checking them first.
These "bad" cylinders are still very shootable. Just use dry or lubed wads under the ball. With tear n pour cartridges, you can still use wads. Just not in the cartridge.
The reason I use this type of cartridge is I don't have to lug around a flask, loose balls and wads. My hands travel up to the gun only once with paper cartridges. Also makes loading between stages just a little quicker at CAS matches.
Thanks for listening, y'all. Now I'm going to study the other type of cartridges that this thread is about and try making those. They do seem easier to make and I do have several match guns with true chambers.
I've been making paper cartridges for years, but it's the tear n pour type. I use bugler rolling papers for the tube and use white glue to glue the 454 round ball in. Sorry no pics, but here's what I do.
For 44 cal. I use a 3/8 wood dowel wrapped a couple of times with 2" masking tape. It's about the right diameter for a 454 round ball to slide in. I wrap a paper around the dowel with the adhesive strip opposite the end of the dowel and on the inside of the tube. White glue the edge and seal to make a tube. Slide the tube up about 3/8", glue the inside edge and slide a ball in till it's half way. Remove the tube and let dry for about 5 minutes. Charge the tube with powder, dampen the adhesive strip and press to seal.
For 36 cal., it's the same procedure except you use just a plain 3/8" dowel. No tape.
To load, I tear the end off with my teeth, pour the powder into the chamber, bunch up the paper tube under the ball and seat the whole thang. The paper does not act as a wad. Here's the reason.
No wad or lube is used. If you have a cylinder with out of round chambers, you could get chainfires from the front. Happened to me with 2 different guns. Both shaved nice round rings of lead, but when I tested them with a mag light, they showed large gaps between the seated ball and the chamber walls. Large gaps. Plenty enough to allow sparks to set off the charge. Rolling paper being nitrated is lousy for stopping sparks.
I load these guns with loose powder and wads. No chainfire problems. Here's some tips. Check out online stores like esmokes for rolling papers. They sell them by the carton and you pretty much get a lifetime's supply in one carton. My buglers come 100 leaves per pack, 24 packs per carton. Buglers are about the least expensive and found them to be a little more sturdy for all the handling it goes through. ZZ being the most fragile. No more "yeah, right." looks at the convenience store.
Elmer's while glue works plenty good enough for glueing the ball into the tube. I "cut" mine with a few drops of water and use a toothpick to spread it. I've had to soak ruined cartridges to salvage the ball. It stuck that good.
If you're not going to use a wad or over powder lube, please check your chambers to make sure they're true. Just remove the nipples, seat the balls to the desired depth, hold the chamber up to a small flashlight and look through the nipple hole. If there're gaps, you'll see a lighted crescent, or two, to the side of the chamber. That would be a gap between the ball the chamber wall. Larger balls will not work as the chamber mouth will shave it the same as it would a slightly smaller ball, ie, 454 vs. 457. True chambers will allow no light. Just because a chamber mouth shaves a nice ring off the ball does not always mean a good seal in the chamber. There are the few cylinders out there with bad chambers. Not many, but enough that I would advise checking them first.
These "bad" cylinders are still very shootable. Just use dry or lubed wads under the ball. With tear n pour cartridges, you can still use wads. Just not in the cartridge.
The reason I use this type of cartridge is I don't have to lug around a flask, loose balls and wads. My hands travel up to the gun only once with paper cartridges. Also makes loading between stages just a little quicker at CAS matches.
Thanks for listening, y'all. Now I'm going to study the other type of cartridges that this thread is about and try making those. They do seem easier to make and I do have several match guns with true chambers.
Yankee John
Member
I just wanted to chime in here and thank the topic starter and all contributers for this outstanding thread! These are a godsend, and save so much time at the range.
I posted a couple of pics earlier of the cartridges that I have been making. As a matter of fact I made another 100 in the last couple evenings while watching TV with the wife. Definately productive time that would otherwise be wasted!
Just an observation: I use the thin/fragile Zig Zag-brand papers and find that they burn up very well in my Remingtons & Colts, with very little paper reminants left in the cylinder after several cylinders fired at the range.
John
I posted a couple of pics earlier of the cartridges that I have been making. As a matter of fact I made another 100 in the last couple evenings while watching TV with the wife. Definately productive time that would otherwise be wasted!
Just an observation: I use the thin/fragile Zig Zag-brand papers and find that they burn up very well in my Remingtons & Colts, with very little paper reminants left in the cylinder after several cylinders fired at the range.
John
Duncaninfrance
Member
Hi Guys, I have been trying all afternoon to get on but my browser woudn't open the site.
ANYWAY - the attached are 3 pages from another French Gun Mag article on making your own paper cartridges. No translation but the pictures are easy to follow.
I will be trying this later this week when a friend of mine has made me a brass mandrel because I can't get my hands on a 9.3 x 74Rmm case so will report back then.
Duncan
ANYWAY - the attached are 3 pages from another French Gun Mag article on making your own paper cartridges. No translation but the pictures are easy to follow.
I will be trying this later this week when a friend of mine has made me a brass mandrel because I can't get my hands on a 9.3 x 74Rmm case so will report back then.
Duncan
Attachments
Duncaninfrance
Member
Range Report!
Well, I went to the range today and shot 36 paper cartridges that I made yesterday while I watched England trash Wales in the Rugby ( so it’s been a good weekend!! ).
(See first attached picture. The bones in the background are all that is left of the last postman!!!).
LOADING THE CARTRIDGES.
I made them as per the information given in the 3 pages I posted earlier.
Because I couldn’t get my hands on a 9,3X74 R cartridge a friend of mine turned me a brass mandrill which was great for making the paper cases. I loaded them with 1.2 grams of powder followed by pollenta and then a 10mm dry card wad stamped from picture mounting card. This was followed by another card wad which had a small smear of Bore Butter on one side which was sandwiched between the 2 wads. Lastly I loaded the .457 ball and twisted the cartridge closed.
Observations:-
Rolling the paper was quite easy but every now and again it would slip and produce an oversize tube which when loaded looked too large for the chamber. I had to throw away 2 such cartridges after taking the ball out.
I had to take care when loading the ball as it was fairly easy to tear the paper if any pressure was applied or the end was over twisted. The instructions are for a .451 or .454 ball so I assume that these will make it easier next time.
AT THE RANGE.
First off, there was a lot of interest in the cartridges and quite a lot of discussion in French about the way they were made. I found them very easy to load in my Remington and quite consistent when fired using Vorderlander-Zündhütchen caps. ( See second picture of target shot at 25 mtrs / 27 yards ).
Observations:
I had 3 miss-fires which might have been down to old caps but I think more likely it was the small twist of paper at the base of the cartridge that was jammed into the nipple hole. I poked the nipple hole and reset another cap and they all fired second time.
One or two shots were slightly delayed, I think for the same reason.
There was paper residue in all chambers after firing and this had to be removed but was not a problem.
I pulled the barrel through after each 6 shots using a rag soaked in auto screen wash which kept it 100% clean.
Overall the gun seemed to stay cleaner than when using a conventional powder/pollenta/felt lube wad/ball load and was easier to clean afterwards.
Next Time:
I will load .451 and/or .454 balls.
I will buy some new caps.
I will put less twist in the base of the paper.
I will use nail clippers to cut the twisted paper rather than scissors.
I will try pricking the cartridge through the nipple hole.
The young son of one of the members was spellbound by the whole thing. He must be about 10 or 11. I let him fire my last round off and the look of sheer ecstasy on his face said it all!! A great day.
Duncan
Well, I went to the range today and shot 36 paper cartridges that I made yesterday while I watched England trash Wales in the Rugby ( so it’s been a good weekend!! ).
(See first attached picture. The bones in the background are all that is left of the last postman!!!).
LOADING THE CARTRIDGES.
I made them as per the information given in the 3 pages I posted earlier.
Because I couldn’t get my hands on a 9,3X74 R cartridge a friend of mine turned me a brass mandrill which was great for making the paper cases. I loaded them with 1.2 grams of powder followed by pollenta and then a 10mm dry card wad stamped from picture mounting card. This was followed by another card wad which had a small smear of Bore Butter on one side which was sandwiched between the 2 wads. Lastly I loaded the .457 ball and twisted the cartridge closed.
Observations:-
Rolling the paper was quite easy but every now and again it would slip and produce an oversize tube which when loaded looked too large for the chamber. I had to throw away 2 such cartridges after taking the ball out.
I had to take care when loading the ball as it was fairly easy to tear the paper if any pressure was applied or the end was over twisted. The instructions are for a .451 or .454 ball so I assume that these will make it easier next time.
AT THE RANGE.
First off, there was a lot of interest in the cartridges and quite a lot of discussion in French about the way they were made. I found them very easy to load in my Remington and quite consistent when fired using Vorderlander-Zündhütchen caps. ( See second picture of target shot at 25 mtrs / 27 yards ).
Observations:
I had 3 miss-fires which might have been down to old caps but I think more likely it was the small twist of paper at the base of the cartridge that was jammed into the nipple hole. I poked the nipple hole and reset another cap and they all fired second time.
One or two shots were slightly delayed, I think for the same reason.
There was paper residue in all chambers after firing and this had to be removed but was not a problem.
I pulled the barrel through after each 6 shots using a rag soaked in auto screen wash which kept it 100% clean.
Overall the gun seemed to stay cleaner than when using a conventional powder/pollenta/felt lube wad/ball load and was easier to clean afterwards.
Next Time:
I will load .451 and/or .454 balls.
I will buy some new caps.
I will put less twist in the base of the paper.
I will use nail clippers to cut the twisted paper rather than scissors.
I will try pricking the cartridge through the nipple hole.
The young son of one of the members was spellbound by the whole thing. He must be about 10 or 11. I let him fire my last round off and the look of sheer ecstasy on his face said it all!! A great day.
Duncan
Attachments
Duncaninfrance said:
WHY am i hearing Peter Sellers doing Closeau when i'm reading this? "You have for me the Poudre?"
Many thanks Duncan! I've been putting my paper on granite plate for machine measuring and spraying them first with potassium nitrate solution, trying next potassium chlorate.
I've ordered small quantities of both nitric and sulfuric acids, with 100% cotton paper to make flash paper.
Going after this with a vengence with the cold and snow here! Three minutes outside and you look like snowman, i AINT shooting in this weather!
Oh yes, reading title, "Confection de cartouches combustibles cal. .44 poudre noir" or "The cartridges combustible caliber .44 powder black" I take it "Confection" is construction? Not candy one hopes!
Yankee John
Member
I've been busy too! Here are the cartridges that I have made over the last month while watching TV with the wife.
John
John
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Duncaninfrance
Member
Yankee John said:
Impressed John but aren't you supposed to shoot them not store them
What kind of trays are you using to store them in?
Duncan
Duncaninfrance
Member
Duncaninfrance said:
Hey Manyirons, "Du yu ave zee leesance fur zat poodur? "
I went to the range this morning and had a talk with the guy I got the Remington from.
He said that a .451 ball is not big enough to give a good seal so it looks like a .454. Then I got to thinking about it and I think that if I just make the paper cartridge with the powder, pollenta and wad it will be quicker because I can drop the cartridge into the cylinder and then load my .457 ball as before on top. I still think I will buy some new caps as those are looking a bit old.
Will keep you posted.
Duncan
Duncaninfrance
Member
Manyirons said:
"Ar but zat is wher yoo ar roong monsieur, the leiu must be obaid yu nouw"!
I was thinking of uping the load to 1.4 grams (21.6 grains I think) and reducing the pollenta but keeping the card wads and lube then loading the ball separatey.
Duncan
Yankee John
Member
Duncan- I know I am supposed to shoot them, but it is winter and cold here in Minnesota right now. I have to have something to do since I can't go outside and shoot!
I use the trays that come in the boxes with my regular .45 colt ammunition (I own a couple of cartridge pistols too). They work great for storage.
John
I use the trays that come in the boxes with my regular .45 colt ammunition (I own a couple of cartridge pistols too). They work great for storage.
John
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