Paradigm Shift in CCW Guns?

[.455_Hunter]

Good Discussion! Thanks For Your Opinions!

I understand the concept that it is not the CCW holder's job to play LEO and protect everybody else. That makes perfect sense. You shouldn't run to the sound of the guns to play hero.

The scenario is I am concerned about is when the assailant is outside the "normal" self-defense zone and is actively trying to KILL you, your family members, and your companions. You have no choice but to fight back, regardless of training, weapon choice, or other considerations.

In my view, the single action trigger option MIGHT be the difference between you hitting the target (stopping/disrupting the attack), or just making noise.

This discussion is similar to the debate over carrying a large cap pistol in case of attack by multiple assailants. Every choice has its strengths and weaknesess.

Thanks,

Hunter

 

[1911 guy]

Ding! Ding! Another Honest Man!

Posted by TimboKahn:
It is a little selfish, but it's the truth. If I could stop a crime I would, but I am not going to go dashing into the face of danger if I don't have to. Life isn't a Diehard movie, you know. As far as people who plan on taking long shots, let me tell you this: I have taken shots at human targets with a rifle in a war-time situation at ranges under 200 yards, and that was hard enough to do. If you can hit with a pistol at extreme range under extreme stress, god bless you. I can't, and so I won't.

Amen, brother.

.455_Hunter, if the nutbag is outside your effective range, you've likely got a bit of room to get behind, around, or out of something. Go to any place people gather, you're hardly ever more than ten feet from something to put you out of line of sight or fire from someone else.

 

[Headless]

I'd be a little hesitant to draw and begin firing at someone across the mall unless you saw them shooting and even then its questionable that you could determine who is the assailant, who is an off duty or under cover police officer.

I'd say it'd be pretty easy. the undercover police officer would be shooting at the guy who is killing innocent, unarmed civilians. The bad guy would be the one shooting the innocent, unarmed civilians. I don't understand why this is repeated so often; I fail to see how it would be difficult to tell who the BG in a public shooting situation is...

 

[Matt-J2]

I'd say it'd be pretty easy. the undercover police officer would be shooting at the guy who is killing innocent, unarmed civilians. The bad guy would be the one shooting the innocent, unarmed civilians. I don't understand why this is repeated so often; I fail to see how it would be difficult to tell who the BG in a public shooting situation is...

The situation isn't always so simple. If the PO is firing at the BG, there's a really good chance the BG is going to be firing back. If you arrive late on the scene, or didn't see who started the shooting before getting your family into cover, etc, then all you're going to see is two armed people firing at each other. Which one is the bad guy? And that's the simple scenario. Add in multiple POs/CCW holders and/or bad guys, and you've got a real mess.
It can be easy, but it can also be very difficult. Just like the rest of life.

 

[wuchak]

Strangely I have found that the more I shoot, the smaller the difference in groups between SA/DA on my revolvers. Actually I'm getting to the point where I prefer DA.

The main problem with handguns at long distance is the short sight plane. If you add on a set of laser grips you can eliminate this problem. The ArmaLaser on my P-3AT is clearly visible in daylight on the backyard garden shed 40 yards from the kitchen window I'm shining it through. Inside a mall there's no question it would be usable. Now the only question is bullet trajectory. A little practice will tell you how many inches high/low you are vs the laser at 25/50/75/100 yards. The next generation of handgun lasers, which will be here in the blink of an eye, will be green instead of red. The green lasers are much more visible in daylight.

Don't forget the possible deterrent effect of the laser itself. A lot of these nuts seem to be of the shoot to until the police arrive and then shoot myself mindset. That red-dot on their chest might be enough to make them either stop or turn their gun on themselves.

 

[TimboKhan]

I don't understand why this is repeated so often; I fail to see how it would be difficult to tell who the BG in a public shooting situation is...

Not me. It's unlikely your going to be presented with a panoramic view of the battle. Chances are that you will be presented with a slice of the fight (unless you want to get shot and break cover to look around), and you may not actually be able to tell friend from foe. Why do you think SWAT teams don't just go charging in?

I say again, real life isn't a Diehard movie. I would like to think that I, or most of you, would prevent a crime from being perpetrated if possible, but to say that you would charge into battle in a mall (where, I might add, the cops have no way to tell YOU from the BG) is foolish. Now, with that being said, I don't depend on the cops to protect me, which is why I carry (when I can, which isn't often). The key word is "me". I don't depend on the police to protect me, because I have made the choice to take the responsibility of protecting me.

 

[lance22]

Yes, These Incidents Have Changed My Views

How am I going to engage a man with a rifle if I can't hit him with my J Frame or Kel Tek until I'm 7 yards away?

These incidents have brought my thinking back to the fundamentals: Carry the most firepower you can reasonably conceal. I think I've gotten lazy and my taste in guns has veered towards firearms that would not save my life in a Mall Shooting. My next gun was going to be a mouse gun but forget that - I'm getting M&P in .40 or .45.

Exta mags - I usually haven't carried them. Now I realize that I might need to pepper some dude so he ducks under cover - allowing others to escape and me to move. How am I going to 'pepper him' if I'm rationing ammo right off the bat? The extra mag isn't just for when the first mag fails.

I know I can't hit anything at 60 yards - but I know my reach is extended with a longer barrel and a cartridge that has serious teeth. This is what I must focus on, now.

 

[BikerRN]

I fail to see how it would be difficult to tell who the BG in a public shooting situation is...

Others have answered this question better than I.

I will just add, it gets very bloody confusing in a crisis situation, and I'm a trained LEO. Off Duty I carry to protect me and mine, therefore the rest of you are on your own. My Agency's Policy is in short, "Don't Get Involved Off Duty". This is a short version of what the actual policy is, but I quote, "Any actions taken by you off duty are to be considered as acting as a private citizen and not as an employee of this agency," Agency Attorney at FLETC in 2007.

So, I will be protecting my rear and not your's. You are on your own. If I can best protect myself by not engaging the threat and fleeing that is exactly what I will do.

Biker

 

[Headless]

If i'm standing in a mall, some dude walks in and starts shooting innocents with a rifle right nearby to me, for example, across the food court... that's a very obvious situation. I don't care if he is not actively shooting at me, i am going to shoot him. Those of you who would flee simply because he has not yet shot you are living in a dream world; it only takes a half of a second for him to turn around and start shooting at you. Being in the vicinity of the shooter equates to him threatening to kill you.

If i hear gunfire in the distance, i'm not running towards it, but if it happens right next to you it would be hard to be confused about who the bad guy is. Reaction to an existing scenario (such as a SWAT team as used for an example above) is totally different than being in the same room as the BG when he begins shooting.

He'd be the one gunning down screaming, fleeing, unarmed people in a public place.

If you walk into an ongoing gunfight, that's very different, unless the police are in official uniforms... but NONE of the public shootings recently have started with a gunfight between police and the shooter, they've started with very obvious BG vs. unarmed civilians and people in the immediate vicinity had no problem telling that the bad guy was the one murdering unarmed innocents. Undercover cops don't hunt down and shoot civilians.

The only case where anyone even fired back until the church shooting this week where he was taken down by a congregation member was the mall shooting where the ogden off-duty police officer returned fire, and even then eye-witnesses reported immediately understanding who the good guy was and who the bad guy was. How? Because the good guy was shooting at the guy with the guns who was killing civilians, and the bad guy was shooting civilians and back at the good guy. Obviously if you cannot see enough of the fight to tell who is killing who, you should not attempt to shoot anybody; but that's not the scenario in question.

 

[Rexster]

Who-ee, this thread has drifted from its original intent. To address the original concern, the ability to place long shots with DAO handguns, and whether DAO was the paradigm, well, I like to have a weapon with me capable of SA fire, and preferably with a longer sight radius than the typical pocket pistol or snubby, though in actuality DA shooting works quite well for me, as it reduces the stress tremors a bit, when coupled with good fit and a bit of weight to dampen motion. While I don't practice nearly often enough at 50 yards these days, it is something we should all experience, IMHO. As for weapons themselves, I have long tended to carry a service/duty type of handgun when on my own time, going back to the days as a young street cop who carried my N-frame S&W M58 .41 magnum almost all the time, only using my J-frame M60 for special occasions such as when going running. I have retained this habit with other duty handguns such as 1911s, a P220, a GP100, BHPs, K-frames, 1911s again, and full-sized Glocks. Since 2004, when I started using a P229 as a duty pistol, I have tended to carry revolvers on my own time, but not tiny J-frames, and often 4" .357 Rugers. I live in hot, humid coastal Texas, and am of thin build, so nobody needs to tell me about the difficulties of carrying in the heat.

 

[TimboKhan]

but if it happens right next to you it would be hard to be confused about who the bad guy is. Reaction to an existing scenario (such as a SWAT team as used for an example above) is totally different than being in the same room as the BG when he begins shooting.

Yes, and being in the same room as the BG also means that I am personally in danger, a situation I would react to. That is not the situation first presented, which was essentially that we should practice LD shooting with our carry pieces, an idea that I find, bluntly put, stupid.

It may only take a half a second to get shot, but if you take some ridiculous LD shot with your carry piece that has a low probability of hitting to begin with, you might as well just carry a sign around that says "shoot me first" because all your doing is drawing immediate attention to yourself.

 

[18DAI]

I agree with 1911 guy.

Besides, if your in an active shooter scenario, and he is 100 yards from you, armed with a handgun, retreat and take cover, get your loved ones to safety.

If he is armed with a rifle, and all you have is a handgun, you have a large problem on your hands, IMHO of course. TJ

 

[Headless]

Yes, and being in the same room as the BG also means that I am personally in danger, a situation I would react to. That is not the situation first presented, which was essentially that we should practice LD shooting with our carry pieces, an idea that I find, bluntly put, stupid.

Not really; the same room in a mall could mean a distance of 30-50 yards, just like the OP suggested to practice for.
Like, for example, the food court of the mall (which i mentioned) or even in a larger department store.

It may only take a half a second to get shot, but if you take some ridiculous LD shot with your carry piece that has a low probability of hitting to begin with, you might as well just carry a sign around that says "shoot me first" because all your doing is drawing immediate attention to yourself.

I think the issue is with the definition of ridiculous - what seems ridiculous to one may not be such a hard shot to another - and that's the entire point; if you practice shooting at 50 yards, it should not be hard to hit a human sized target COM repeatedly, even with a snub .38...with a small subcompact auto, the sight radius is usually longer and the shot is even easier than the snub revolver. I'm not a great shot by any means, but i can still hit tennis balls with my 642 3 of 5 shots at 30 yards, without any rest, with the other 2 darn close. My CS40 has an even wider sight radius and I shoot it better, though I haven't practiced at that distance with it since I got it (no holster, so it stays at home for now). I'd feel confident in hitting a person's COM repeatedly at that distance, especially if they are busy shooting at other people and i can stage the shot with a rest.

If you hit the attacker with a round or two, chances are they are suiciding it, as is evidenced by the church shooter who offed himself when shot by the congregation attendee just a couple days ago.
At the very least, they will likely stop their attack on innocents and buy time for LE to arrive. Obviously you risk drawing attention to yourself by doing so, but that is a personal decision that each person must make. If you can live with running away from a situation where you have the means and ability to eliminate the threat, leaving innocents to die because of your decision, do that. Myself, I am finding somewhere with cover and concealment and taking the shot if it's reasonably close (within 50 yards or so)

 

[.455_Hunter]

If you hit the attacker with a round or two, chances are they are suiciding it....

Not that I am recommending this CCW choice to anybody, but seems to me that dumping the entire 8+1 magazine of a Beretta 950BS .25 ACP at the target at 50 yds could easily produce the desired results. These nut jobs don't expect anybody is going to resist the slaughter, even if it is from a mouse gun. Much better option than dying under one of the food court tables.

 

[TimboKhan]

If you can live with running away from a situation where you have the means and ability to eliminate the threat, leaving innocents to die because of your decision, do that. Myself, I am finding somewhere with cover and concealment and taking the shot if it's reasonably close (within 50 yards or so)

I can live with that quite nicely, because I will live. Look man, I don't mean to sound like a selfish jerk, but I can't shoot a handgun that great at 50 yards at the range, let alone under stress. I sure as heck am not going to be doing so with the snubby .357 that I carry. Having been under that sort of stress before, I can tell you that it simply isn't as easy as you might think it is. Do what you need to do, I guess, but I can tell you without pause or reservation that I have no problems leaving innocents behind if it means that I make it. I am not a hero and have no desire to be one.

Moreover, I personally think that there are a lot of delusions of grandeur happening in this thread. I don't want to leave the impression that I wouldn't help someone if I could, but my abilities with a handgun fall well short of shooting someone 50 yards away, in a food court, under stress, and with screaming people running to and fro around me. So yes, in the situation you describe, I can live with myself quite nicely.

 

[meef]

Moreover, I personally think that there are a lot of delusions of grandeur happening in this thread.

You noticed that too, did you.

It's a relatively common Walter Mitty thing that seems to occur around here whenever one of these damned shootings happens. Or whenever somebody posts an exceptionally creative "what if" scenario thread.

::sigh...::