Pawnshop Special: Spanish M1916 in .308

[ProfessrH]

Found a “pawnshop special” recently: an M1916 in .308 (pretty rusty and rough looking) priced to sell. Because it functioned smoothly and had a nice looking bore (and because the owner made me an even more attractive out-the-door offer), I bought it. Do I have rocks in my head?

I have cleaned it up; it appears that the damage is cosmetic and/or repairable (cracked stock)—but I haven't had it checked out by a gunsmith yet.

Meanwhile, I've been reading—a lot—about Spanish Mausers (here and elsewhere) and I think I am finally up to speed on the .308 rechamber controversy.

From what I’ve gathered, it seems clear that the M1916 in .308 should be safe to shoot—given that it (along with its owner) meets or exceeds a set of firm-and-fast conditions:

1) The rifle must pass a gunsmith's thorough inspection that includes checking headspace with a go/no-go gauge, indicating that the chamber has not already been compromised by someone feeding it a steady diet of overpressure ammunition (like .308 hunting loads).

2) The rifle (passing the gunsmith's inspection) must be used with sensible ammunition, preferably handloaded, that stays well within the pressure limits of the 7x57 ammo it was originally designed for.

3) Brass fired from the rifle must be monitored for signs of overpressure, and these signs taken seriously.

Absent these conditions, the rifle is not safe to shoot. Period.

I am a careful and sensible guy. I reload for (and hunt with) four other rifles already (an SKS, a Swede, a Czech Mauser, and a K31), and I don’t object to the idea of adding a fifth. I could manage the above conditions (assuming the rifle gets past my gunsmith). However, I’m thinking of dumping this one—not even testing it—and looking for something less steeped in drama (maybe an M1916 in the original 7x57?).

What do you think? I appreciate your input.

ProfessrH

PS: I should also mention that the rifle is electropencilled with a case number from the Alabama Forensic Sciences Department, and spent much of the last 23 years locked in a vault in the basement of a county jail. I have requested a copy of the lab report ($10) and hope to know at least some of the particulars soon.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I think that by approaching this gun with due caution and diligence watching for and danger signs carefully. That FOR YOU this rifle assuming it passes snuff is as safe as anything. As you've probably surmised most of the warnings on these guns revolve around taking a small ring Spanish Mauser with unknown headspace and feeding it a diet of 60k+ psi factory loads.

I do urge you to wear safety glasses at all times when shooting old mausers. Also once you establish what the headspace is on this gun check it periodically and make sure it doesn't change. Because if it does the rifle is DONE at that point.

posted via mobile device.

 

[Yoda]

I also once had one...

It was one of the very first bold-action rifles I ever owned, but I started to hear much of the same cautions that you covered, all warning against using "real" .308 vice CETME loads, so I got rid of it.

Since then, i've bought a German Mauser carbine, cut down, sporterized, and re-chambered for .308, plus two FR-8's. I'm wondering if those are also just not safe with .308s, but I like the looks of them, so i'll hang on to them.

They are all the most uncomfortable guns to shoot that I have in my collection.

- - - Yoda

 

[mookiie]

I just got a Spanish m1916 in 308. I also found that hand loading low pressure loads works great. I have a recipe that is very accurate with 147 grn projectiles and IMR 4064. Let me know if you need reload data. Have fun.

 

[35 Whelen]

I bought a beater 1916 in .308 and used it as the basis for a Scout Rifle for my wife.



The project took lots of nights out in the shop, but was worth every minute of toil. It's a pretty good shooter, too:



100 yds. after mounting the scope:



Regarding handloads, these rifles have VERY long throats. So long in fact, that you can forget seating all but very heavy bullets anywhere near the rifling.

35W

 

[Snowdog]

I've got the same rifle, but I knew what I was getting into before the purchase. In fact, I purchased the rifle for a particular type of cartridge instead of the other way around.

I wanted something that was all the heft and blast of the usual military surplus rifle but mild in recoil.



I found DAG plastic training ammunition for $7.99/50 that, from what I've read, lobs a 10gr slug to around 4000 fps. I have yet to chronograph these loads from my 1916 Spanish Mauser, but I can tell you they indeed are blasty and loud, yet mild in recoil (about the same as a .22WMR from a rifle).

What I can tell you from experience is that they'll atomize an unopened 12oz can of soda and apples at 15'. It will also drill a hole clean through a 3/4" plywood at about 15 yards. At that range, accuracy seems very good as well. I read it will provide decent accuracy out to at least 100 yards.



The primers are still rounded and there's no obvious signs of high pressure. I have no concerns with the lack of safety lug using this stuff. And again, for what I paid for both the rifle and the DAG plastic ammo, it makes a dandy plinker. For those who want to plink but are weary of firing military 7.62x51 NATO from their 1916 Spanish Mausers and don't reload for the .308/7.62, this is a decent option, IMO.

SOG is still selling this non-corrosive ammunition for $8 a box of 50

Just an option you may want to consider before dumping the rifle.

 

[HGM22]

The thing that turns me off about these rifles is that they are small ring Mausers, meaning no gas vents.

 

[35 Whelen]

The thing that turns me off about these rifles is that they are small ring Mausers, meaning no gas vents.

This subject has been discussed before, that's why these pistures are labeled. My wife's rifle:



Various other small ring non-'98 Mausers:











35W

 

[HGM22]

I stand corrected. Not all small ring Mausers have the gas vents, do they?

 

[35 Whelen]

I stand corrected. Not all small ring Mausers have the gas vents, do they?

I think that's correct. Some of the older ones do not.

35W

 

[ball3006]

If factory hunting ammo was unsafe in any rifle chambered for it, I doubt if the company lawyers would allow it's manufacture. I have a custom 95 Mauser in 308 that I built back in the 60s that I have been shooting ever since. I use it for hunting too. HOWEVER.....I handload for accuracy, not velocity. My handloads I have worked up for all my rifles come nowhere near the max end of the loading charts......chris3

 

[Slamfire]

If the receiver was a modern one, made around or after WWII, strength of the action would not be an issue. Modern metallurgy and process controls have really improved the strength of old designs.

As a comment about the improvement in metallurgy from early 1900 to 1937, this section written by Phil Sharpe in 1935 is still pertinent:

There has been a great deal of improvement in steels, whether they be ordinary soft steels or various forms of nickel steel. No attempt with be made here to describe steels, as the subject would require and entire book. Thirty years ago, very little was known about heat treatment..

If you had a Winchester Model 1892 manufactured in 1905 and an identical model manufactured in 1935, assuming the original gun to be in perfect condition inside and out, you might place them side by side and notice absolutely no difference at firs glance. Careful study, however, will reveal that the later gun is manufactured better, with a minimum of tolerance, slap, looseness or whatever you may choose to call it. That, however, is the minor part of the of the whole thing. There will be little laboratory resemblance between the material of which the two gun are manufactured. Changes and improvements are being made constantly, and where changes in the quality of steel or the strengthening of certain parts through heat treatment are made, the factory rarely, if ever, makes any announcement. If these same Model 92 rifles were fired with a Magnum .38/40 load, it is quite possible that the earlier gun might go to pieces, while the later one would be perfectly safe. These facts must always be considered in handloading.

Complete Guide to Handloading , Philip B Sharpe. First Edition 1937, Chapter XXX, Magnum Handgun and Rifle Possibilities.


The gas handling features of pre 1898 actions is not very good, if you ever have a ruptured case, you will be lucky if you don’t have a catastrophic failure in a small ring mauser. Given the poor gas handling and old plain carbon steels used in these action, it is highly probable that you will get brass and steel particles in your face, stock fragments, and as we can see in these pictures, the receiver ring can blow.

Spanish FR7 308 conversion from 1916 rifle







Swedish M1896 action




Operating pressures for original small ring mausers was not that high. Loading for the modern 308 cartridges are just at proof pressures for period actions:


Rifle Magazine Issue 159 May 1995 Dear Editor pg 10
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/ri159partial.pdf

Ludwig Olsen

Mauser 98 actions produced by Mauser and DWM were proofed with two loads that produced approximately 1000 atmosphere greater pressure than normal factory rounds. That procedure was in accordance with the 1891 German proof law. Proof pressure for the Mauser 98 in 7 X57 was 4,050 atmospheres (57, 591 psi). Pressure of the normal 7 X 57 factory load with 11.2 gram bullet was given in Mauser’s 1908 patent boot as 3,050 atmosphere, or 43, 371 pounds.

While many Mausers in the 1908 Brazilian category will likely endure pressures considerably in excess of the 4,050 atmospheres proof loads, there might be some setback of the receiver locking shoulder with such high pressures.

Yes, you should watch out for sticky extraction, evidence of receiver lug seat back. This sight has good pictures of lug set back in a 308 conversion of a 1895 action.

http://dutchman.rebooty.com/1895Chile.html

 

[R.W.Dale]

The thing that turns me off about these rifles is that they are small ring Mausers, meaning no gas vents.

Its not so much they lack the ports but that they lack the gas deflection shield on the rear of the bolt.

High pressure gas is like electricity it will take the path of least resistance. The entire volume from a case rupture will not all go out that side port. So much will and the rest will go elsewhere. On a small ring that elsewhere will be into the mag well, and down the bolt raceways unimpeded into your face.

posted via mobile device.

 

[ProfessrH]

Thanks, all, for your input.

35 Whelen, what kind of scope is that, and who made the mount? I have a similar rig on my CZ vz24, but the first scope failed (fogged inside) when I got caught in an Alabama thunderstorm, and I had to get it replaced (on warranty).

Mookie, do you find your reloads with 147 grn projectiles and IMR 4064 help tame the unpleasant recoil that Yoda is talking about? (I know the original 7x57 is reputed to have pleasantly mild recoil, generally speaking).

SlamFire, do you think that loading to pressures that approximate those of the original 7x57 ammo (and assuming the gun checks out) I would be keeping within safe tolerances, or do you think, ultimately, that shooting any of these conversions in any way, shape, or fashion, is basically "playing with fire"?

I really am still thinking about getting rid of this one; I'm here to get the best input I can from a base of experienced shooters. Thanks for your ongoing assistance!

ProfessrH

 

[35 Whelen]

Thanks, all, for your input.

35 Whelen, what kind of scope is that, and who made the mount? I have a similar rig on my CZ vz24, but the first scope failed (fogged inside) when I got caught in an Alabama thunderstorm, and I had to get it replaced (on warranty).

Mookie, do you find your reloads with 147 grn projectiles and IMR 4064 help tame the unpleasant recoil that Yoda is talking about? (I know the original 7x57 is reputed to have pleasantly mild recoil, generally speaking).

SlamFire, do you think that loading to pressures that approximate those of the original 7x57 ammo (and assuming the gun checks out) I would be keeping within safe tolerances, or do you think, ultimately, that shooting any of these conversions in any way, shape, or fashion, is basically "playing with fire"?

I really am still thinking about getting rid of this one; I'm here to get the best input I can from a base of experienced shooters. Thanks for your ongoing assistance!

ProfessrH

The scope mount is an XS System mount from Brownell's and the scope is a Burris Scout Scope.

I'm not going to get in another peeing contest with the members repsonsible for post 12 & 13, but their lot in life seems to be to strike fear in the hearts of the owners of '91, '93, and '95 Mausers. I don't quite understand why this is, but it is.

A couple of months ago I contacted SAMCO Global, the importer/distributor of the 1916 Mausers and asked them point blank about the strength of the actions. I received this from them:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=160057&d=1330392604

If you want to sell the rifle I'd suggest posting it over on the Surplus Rifle Forum classifieds. It'll get snatched up quick if you price it right.

35W

 

[Slamfire]

There is risk associated shooting old guns. Its past history, how many rounds have gone through the receiver before you got it, whether it has been over stressed, you just don't know.

I regularly shoot a 168 SMK with 39.0 grs IMR 4895 at 200 yards standing and sitting. Last weekend I shot something like a 198 sitting rapid fire with this load. It is accurate and when I look at the Lyman manual, it is just around 40 K psia.

So if your rifle is as good now, as it was supposed to be when it was built, that should be within the operating pressures of the original loads.

If you shoot the thing you have to be particular about using good brass and pay attention to any evidence of receiver lug set back.

I had a Federal Ordnance M1903A3 and as I shot the thing the soft receiver seats receded. I was new to shooting but eventually I figured out that the reason I was having hard extraction was due to the effort it took to get those lugs out of the depression that was being created as the receiver seats moved back.

I am lucky that I did not have a ruptured case head. I got advanced warning of headspace increase but I don’t know if anyone with one of these Spanish rifles will.

I assembled a rifle around a M1903A3 drill rifle receiver. I cut the chamber to minimum headspace and fired at least one hundred rounds, probably more through the thing, checking the cartridge headspace with Wilson gages. I came to the conclusion that nothing was growing so I have confidence in the receiver.



You can do the same with your rifle, buy a headspace gage and if you get evidence of a headspace increase, break the firing pin and sell the stock, bolt, etc, for parts.

 

[stan rose]

I was hesitant about shooting .308 out of my 1916 so I have decided to order the conversion kit to make it 7.62x39. It cost $35 and is totally reversible, and Numrich has the magazine conversions for $19, also totally reversible, and it can still shoot inexpensive ammo.

 

[ProfessrH]

I think if I keep it I'll load light and shoot 150 grain bullets. The Lee manual shows loads with H4831 and H4350 that top out with pressures in the mid 40Ks and speeds around 2500fps. (The H4831 max load is compressed).

Stan, have you rigged that conversion yet? How do you like it?

Thanks, all.

ProfessrH

 

[lonniemike]

Prof, As per opening post, if all's checked out good, go for it.
40's and 2500, or so, sounds good. Just about any 308 start load could be a max charge which should be worked up to. Whelen's posted load is a min 308 charge in my old Hodgdon's. You are looking for the best accuracy, right. Plenty do shoot full house 308 loads and haven't had problems, yet. I can not believe that any commercial ammo is over 60K in any psi measurement system. As long as headspace isn't growing, you're good to go.
Slam,as to the 7X57 and psi, consider that crusher pressure tech was top of the line back in the "old German days" and was in metric units. Which somehow got switched into an Amer/Eng psi.
So the original 98 design was proofed to 57-58KCUP(in real psi this would be way north of the 60 mark) and working ammo pressures are 43-44KCUP. And the Germans or Spanish proofed 93 designs at what levels, may be more interesting?
Dale and Slam are trying to give good advise but I suspect Dale nor anyone else won't show me any factory ammo at 60+ pressures.
Yoda, the fr-8 are Spanish 98s and should be good for 308. Your other German carbines may not be 98s.
Best All

 

[Slamfire]

And the Germans or Spanish proofed 93 designs at what levels, may be more interesting?

I assume German 1893 actions were proofed according to the 1891 proof laws.

 

[stan rose]

No I have not done the conversion yet, it is just another project awaiting completion. Once I do I will post the results.

 

[ProfessrH]

Lonniemike.

I'm looking for accuracy, yes, but if I do keep and shoot this rifle, I'll also hunt with it.

I had good results this season (2 bucks, 2 wild hogs, all one shot kills, only ran a max of about 30 yards) using my K31 with 150 grain .308 bullets at about 2600 fps. I'd like to achieve close to that in the M1916 without getting the pressure above about 44,000 CUP. . . .

Meanwhile, I took it to the gunsmith yesterday, and the headspace checked out fine.

 

[lonniemike]

Prof, Looking good. You should be fine. Generally ~2600fps in a 308 will be a milder loading with a 26" tube. Full 308(or7.5X55w/K-31) loads may exceed 2800 by a bit. Do you have a chrono? Ain't the Swiss rifles great. The 31s will take mag pressures. The Swiss and others have been putting full 308 pressures into the 11s since the 50's and 60's after the 7.62NATO round was introduced.Best

 

[ProfessrH]

Lonniemike,

I love that K31. Very user friendly, and much more accurate than I am.

I load it with 150 grain Hornady SPs and H4350 at 0.5 grains off Lee's Do Not Exceed load, and it works wonders.

 

[ProfessrH]

Okay, so if I keep this rifle and shoot it, I want to handload it in a way that

• shoots accurately
• tames recoil
• delivers one-shot kills on deer and wild hogs out to, say, 200 yards
• keeps pressure LOW (i.e., won't blow up the gun and the shooter)

This may not be the best place for the question, but . . . anybody got any suggestions? Favorite low-pressure loads?

Mookie, you said something earlier about loads w/4064. I'm all ears.

Anybody else?

Thanks, as always.

ProfessrH