Spainish m1916 MAuser 7.52 NATO vs 308 Win

[Slamfire]

Firing any OLD rifle assumes a certain degree of risk. But to do so with loads that exceeds the original design by 20% is just asking for troubles. A design that in a safety careless age was deemed to have needed safety improvement.

I would shoot the gun. But I would check headspace every few outings. I would wear safety glasses and I would keep loads to 40k psi or less.

Agree, and we are trying to make you understand your risk. Check the headspace after firing till you have confidence that nothing is changing.

Which is what I did after rebarreling this drill rifle receiver. No change in headspace after two such outings. I think it is good to go.

SlamFire1 - so i assume you mean to say that shooting commercial 308 win in this rifle would be a mistake, would you also say that a lower pressure handload in the rifle would also not be worth the risk to fire?

The load I recommended post #31 is a 35,500 psia load according to my Lyman 48th edition.

 

[mookiie]

Slamfire1 and RW Dale - Thanks for the input now I have a starting PSI pressure to use as a guide that is exactly the kind of information I really wanted. Thanks again guys!

 

[R.W.Dale]

Today on my way to my favorite deer hunting spot I stopped by one of the gun stores somewhat on the way.

Browsing along the milsurp section I saw an all original 1891 argie that looked pretty promising. Well after looking at it the tag on the Bubba 1891 next to it caught my eye. IT WAS CHAMBERED FOR 308 WIN!!!!

Holy head injuries Batman!

But after contemplating informing the obviously clueless staff in on the risk I noticed the original bbl was used complete with its .313 to .314" groove diameter. I doubt pressures or accuracy would be that high.

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[68caliberkiller]

CETME surplus ammo is still available

I've got a FR8, spanish mauser 7.62. Love it, short carbine, great woods gun. I bought a bunch of spanish cetme ammo, relatively cheap, around $12 a 15 round box, noncorrosive. I've killed several whitetail and even a few hogs with it no follow up shots required. I was concerned at first if I'd need more power, as they say its more about shot placement. K98 Mauser action is a very strong and proven action, and the 8mm mauser round it was designed around was basically the german 30-06. I know the .308w has higher pressure but I feel the recoil from a 30-06 in my shoulder. The cetme round however shoots like a plinker, poorman's reduced recoil round. You can shoot through a box or 2 and not even feel it.

 

[desidog]

That KB'd rifle posted by Slamfire1 in post #45 is DEFINITELY an FR-7...i know because it says so right on it. Look at the serial #.

As for the pressure issue, I've chimed in on this before in other threads; I've studied it hard since i had an FR-7 and now an FR-8. But i'll just say, Why risk it?

Get an MCAce .308 to 7.62x25 conversion, or a .32auto conversion from Sportsmans guide, or handload.

If anyone is aware of the pressure issue in a small-ring Mauser, and he proceeds to frag himself, I have no sympathy except to issue a Darwin Award.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

however REALLY, the weapons are marked for 7.62 ammo with max pressures of 49,700 psi CUP vs. 52,000 psi CUP.

What the aitch ee double hockey sticks is "psi CUP?"

 

[68caliberkiller]

Thought I'd throw in a pic of my FR8 find. Sporterized and parkerized by someone else, worth less because its no longer original, but so much more useful with a scope! Its what I wanted, I wasn't gonna pay the $350 plus collectors value and then grind sites off and carve furniture...found on GB for $275 about 2 years ago. I just shoot CETME 7.62 loads cause I'd hate to blow her up.

 

[NCsmitty]

There is little to worry about with FR-8/M43 Spanish Mausers, because they are full blown, large ring, M98 design, and can handle the 7.62x51 Nato ammo as well as most 308 Win.

IMO, the small ring versions including the FR-7 in 7.62, are the ones that I would be concerned about, when using anything other than the CETME ammo that the Spaniard's selected to use in the conversions. CETME ammo used a lighter, plastic core bullet at lower pressure than the 7.62x51 Nato. The Nato ammo was introduced in 1954.


NCsmitty

 

[spence]

I have an fr8-07721 fabrica de armas la coruna 1955. how can I tell if it is a small ring or a large ring for sure ? I looks just the one in the fotos but there is no hole in the side of the ring. I thought it was a large ring because it is marked fr8. But after reading these posts i'm not sure any more. Thanks

 

[35 Whelen]

I have an fr8-07721 fabrica de armas la coruna 1955. how can I tell if it is a small ring or a large ring for sure ? I looks just the one in the fotos but there is no hole in the side of the ring. I thought it was a large ring because it is marked fr8. But after reading these posts i'm not sure any more. Thanks

If it's stamped FR-8, it's a large ring '98.

35W

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The large ring action is 1.410" diameter, the small ring 1.300".

 

[Fullboar1]

99% of Small Ring Mausers that have blown up was because of Head Space problems, like has been said they dont vent gases from ruptured cases well at all. The first thing I do when buying a new second hand rifle (especially an old mauser) is have the head space checked. A hell of a large number of Spanish Mausers were converted to 308 and if you have it checked for head space and it's good I would think you would have no problems firing factory 308 ammo through it but I think firing mild handloads is a even better idea.

You can find alot of 308 load data on the Hodgdon website from 110 to 180 grain bullets with a number of different brand powders that will be under 40 000 PSI I am sure you can find a number of good loads that work in your rifle.
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

 

[valnar]

Sorry to bring back this thread to life, but I need the experts.

Since the 8mm mauser surplus ammo is drying up, this Spanish Mauser in .308 intrigues me. Is this based on the small or large ring? How can you tell?

http://www.samcoglobal.com/1-1916.html

 

[R.W.Dale]

Sorry to bring back this thread to life, but I need the experts.

Since the 8mm mauser surplus ammo is drying up, this Spanish Mauser in .308 intrigues me. Is this based on the small or large ring? How can you tell?

http://www.samcoglobal.com/1-1916.html

The m1916 is a small ring Mauser. An easy ID can be made by comparing its safety and cocking piece to one from a large ring.

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[mookiie]

The 1916 is a small ring mauser, the 1893 version in 7mm was re-arsenaled to 7.62x51mm or a 308 win at 50,000 or less pressure. So commercial 308 is not a good option as it is at like 60,000 preassure.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The Spanish M1916 is a small ring Mauser and is chambered for the 7.62 CTME cartridge. It is the same as the M95 Mauser action, but made in Spain.

From Jerry KKuhnhausen's The Mause Bolt Actions, page 85:

To compound the problem, a 7.62X51 mm NATO (or .308 Wincnester) cartridge will chamber in a 1916 Model 7.62 CTME chamber. However, the 7.62X51 mm NATO or the .308 Winchester can generate pressure of about 55,200 CUP. This pressure range is dangerous even in a well heat-treated German or Swedish made small ring M91-96 Mauser action but in my opinion can be particularly dangerous in the much softer Spanish made actions.

(Emphasis in the original.)

 

[valnar]

Rats. OK, thanks.

 

[mookiie]

All I shot 39 grns of IMR 4064, with a 147 grn FMJ-BT .308 projectile and LC once fired 308 brass. At 100 yards the ammo performed fine in the rifle. It was noticeable off, shooting about 8 inches below point of aim and about 5 - 6 to the left, but it shoot consistently in that area. I plan on seeing how accurate I can get the loads once I find a better sighting system to mount on this rifle. I saw no signs of damage to the receiver or any indications of high pressure from the brass.

 

[NCsmitty]

I shot 39 grns of IMR 4064, with a 147 grn FMJ-BT

You do have room to increase the charge a bit, according to www.hodgdon.com.
They list 43gr of IMR4064 and 150gr bullet, as a starting load, with around 45,000 PSI. I see no reason not to increase the load a couple grains over what you're loading now and try it. The rifle may shoot closer to your POA, than what you are seeing now. That's your call.


NCsmitty

 

[mookiie]

Thanks NCsmitty. I know I had more room I have a Lyman manual that lists pressure. I will reload the 50 I shot with a few more grains, but I didn't really try adjusting the sights on the rifle so I may be able to dial it in closer to Point of impact. I was really only looking for proof of concept when I took it out last time. So i did not spend to much time fiddling with it.

 

[35 Whelen]

Rats. OK, thanks.

Like others have said, it's based on small ring, but don't panic. After all the panic and doom-saying generated by this post, I e-mailed Samco and asked them about their 1916 rifles. It took them a little over a month to respond, but here's the correspondence:

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 1916 Spanish Mauser
From: XXXX <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, January 02, 2012 9:36 am
To: [email protected]

Sir or Madam:
There has been for years much heated discussion on the internet
regarding the safety of the 1916 Mausers chambered in .308 Winchester
such as the examples your company sells. If memory serves, they had been
proof tested and had been found safe. Are the rifles you sell headspaced
and do you have information regarding the strength of these actions? I seem
to recall an article in a gun magazine regarding the rifles you sell.
I actually own one of these rifles purchased from an individual,
shoot normal .308 Winchester ammunition through it, have had zero
problems, and am very pleased with it. I personally feel the rifles are
quite safe, but wanted to ask the importer directly.
Thank you,
XXXX

Their response:

Hi,

Attached please find a copy of our article in regards to our Spanish

SAMCO GLOBAL ARMS, INC
WWW.SAMCOGLOBAL.COM
6995 N.W. 43rd Street
Miami, Fl U.S.A. 33166
Toll-Free Order Line#: 1-(800)-554-1618
PH#: 1-305-593-9782
FAX#: 1-305-593-1014

And the article they attached (pay particular attention to the fourth paragraph):
View attachment SPANISHMAUSERARTICLE-1.pdf

As I'm sure you read, it took in excess of 98,000 psi to destroy the rifles.

If you're still worried, keep your loads within the pressure parameters of the cartridge that was originally chambered in the original small ring actions shortly before the turn of the 20th century; the 7x57 Mauser whose average pressure back then was 50,370 CUP.

Lyman's 49th manual and Hodgdon's webpage has plenty of data whose pressures do not exceed the above amount. There is one little twist however: as I stated, I own both an FR-8 and a 1916 and have handloaded and chronographed many, many loads through both rifles. They both have VERY long thoats which tends to lowers chamber pressures (think Weatherby and their freebored barrels) as indicated by my chronograph data. Point is, you'll experience lower velocities, due to lower pressures, than indicated in the data or in the case of factory ammo, than in their specs.

Good luck,
35W

 

[mookiie]

35wheelen - I've already posted that article - scroll to page one of the thread.

 

[Ignition Override]

Some posters seem to put both the FR7 and FR8 into the exact same group when using general descriptions, and appear to not differentiate between them, when comparing ammo pressures.

The appearance of both unique rifles is so similar-other than the FR7 having a bent bolt and the FR8 (normally) a straight bolt-has helped lead to generalizations on several website discussions.

A very detailed discussion a few months ago ("refreshed" from about '07), over at Surplusrifle, was very interesting.
The main contributor stated that he worked for some type of ammo research or other testing lab lab in Canada.

One of his main points was that old military "CUP" is often mistakenly interpreted to mean "PSI", because even though CUP is a type of pressure measurement, people assume that it must be the same as (Saami) PSI-which uses a different system. The Nato 7.62 (actual psi) often is indicated up to about 58,000 psi, whereas modern comm. .308 can be a max. of about 62,000 psi.

Anyway, the gent who was in the very long thread told me that he also has an FR8, and (along with numerous other posters) that the Spanish designed the reduced pressure 7.62 CETME round after the FR8 was designed, to reduce felt recoil and flinching among new Spanish recruits. The gun has the same chamber and barrel (but fake gas tube/clean. comp.) as the G-3, which uses Nato 7.62.

He also owns this type of rifle and has no concerns using modern commercial .308 ammo, due to the strength of the very strong 8mm Mauser action, very good headspace (brass checked often), and matching bolt which indicates that the bolts' lugs can have more reliable contact that what can happen with mis-matched bolts, etc.

Anyway, to clarify, the FR7 might Look identical, other than the bent bolt, but the action is from the much older, much weaker small-ring action.

 

[Slamfire]

the 7x57 Mauser whose average pressure back then was 50,370 CUP.

A couple of threads ago I found the 1898 vintage report that a similiar number came from. The load was a 173 grain bullet going 2200 fps, not exactly moving fast in today's world. You would think 50,000 (was it psi?) would zing that bullet out faster, especially out of a 29" barrel.

While fps is fps, what I do not know if the CUP measurements taken in 1898 are comparable to today.

Pressure measurements with chrusher equipment is very specific to equipment, copper slugs, and I have no idea of the calibration standards in 1898 and whether they are traceable to the way CUP is measured today.

Anyone know pre 1900 pressure calibration standards and technics?

Anyway SAMCO is still selling the M1916's https://www.samcoglobal.com/1-1916.html I would not expect them to be anything but very positive about their inventory.

 

[valnar]

I found this gun on Gunbroker, which is said to be made from a large ring Mauser, unlike the Samco models. Although at that price, it's now getting into the territory of a modern bolt action, so I don't know if I would want to pay the price.