Pediatrician nonsense

[PotatoJudge]

"It isn't a fluke that we all grew up without having gun accidents."
Obviously, you grew up.

As I see it, asking about gun safety/ownership can have some positive effects (not to say I'm for it). I have a cousin who got his dad's gun at 4 and shot himself in the hand. Don't know about his dad, but I have a strong suspicion that if a doctor (or anyone, for that matter) had talked to his mother about keeping guns out of her kids reach she would have done her part. Also, if a kids doctor talks to him about gun safety they may be more likely to listen- kids look up to doctors. Two instances, but I can't think of too many more.

Don't forget that doctors are people, with as many different opinions and agendas as anyone else- no more no less. That's why its important to find one you trust so that if they ask about guns, you can be comfortable with them asking. If you don't trust them to use (or not use) that information then you shouldn't be comfortable putting your health in their hands. Early in medical school it was stressed what a huge amount of trust people put in their doctors. Who's had surgery (been cut open by a guy you've met like twice, let them tinker with your innards)? I think its important for doctors to take this trust seriously so that the patient is comfortable and the physician gets all the info they need.

BTW talking bad about doctors, psychologists, cops, muslims, teenagers, most any GROUP really, is good for an argument and bad for a debate.

 

[thumbody]

PlayboyPenguin
Sometimes the consequences are worse if you do gun proof your kids,
http://www.richardpoe.com/sevenmyths_chapter1.html
I would rather teach my kids to be responsible and to have the means to defend themselves than to make them victims!

Yes younger ones should not have access, but to have to leave you family defenseless is even more irresponsible.
We are trying too hard to protect our young ones and not enough time teaching them responsibility.

 

[blackhawk2000]

I do not think this makes him anti-gun. He is just pointing out a fact. Children will play with them if given the oppotunity no matter how well you teach them. Some parents belive that their children will do as told if they tell them the consequences but we have to remember that young children do not have the cognitive and reasoning abilities that we as adults have and they are prone to do things they know they should not without even knowing why they did it. Any parent can tell you that. I think the fact that the gun death rate of children is so low is not because parents trust the kids to do the right thing when they are not there but because the vast majority are responsible gun owners that secure their firearms when children are around them. I think his point should have been that they should always be locked up when not being actively used and supervised. I doubt you could find a parent on here that would say it is okay to leave unlocked and loaded weapons out where a small child can get to them. Did he suggest removing the guns from the home or just that you take very necessary precautions?

This is completely untrue. Since the birth of my son 4 1/2 years ago, he has never once thought about touching the loaded shotgun that always stays by my bed. Occasionally I unload a gun, triple check it, dry fire it, and leave it laying on the floor where he can trip over it. Not once has he touched it. Just the other day, I found an old cap gun from when I was a kid, and they still looked real. I put it in his room, while he was talking to my wife. I didn't say anything, and left the room. My wife said he just looked at it, and couldn't figure out why I did that. She then told him it was a toy gun for him, then he was very happy, and grabbed it. I never let him point the toy guns at a person including himself. Any time he wants he can look at any gun, as long as I am there to supervise. He holds them, best he can, asks me again how the sights work, then quickly loses interest. Sometimes, we talk about death, and shooting people, and I tell him some bad people, need to get shot to make them stop hurting you/yours. That it's only right to shoot people that are trying to hurt you really bad, and then only until they stop hurting you/yours. He also knows that if he plays with a gun unsupervized, that he could end up hurting, Mommy, Daddy, Baby, or himself really really bad, and possibly kill them. I tell him that's it fine to shoot animals, as long as you plan on eating them. (I don't think killing an animal is a good thing if you just want to kill it for sport, unless it's some type of varmint, and this includes wild boars in Texas. edit for clarity: wild boars are fine to slaughter in Texas and other states where they run rampant acting as varmints.) He is well aware of what type of animal, he is eating for dinner, and knows that said animal used to be alive, but now is not, and that God put the animals on Earth for people to eat, and use for various other reasons. Not once has he outed me in public while carrying.

Obviously not all children do this, but I believe they just haven't been taught properly.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Just a question...are some people not able to grasp the faulty logic behind the statement "it hasn't happened to me therefore it will not happen"? Saying "my son/daughter has not touched my guns" does not mean they will not if given the right opputunity at the right time. It is hard for me to fathom why someone would even argue this point. Why not take every precaution when your child's safety is at stake. I always wonder if someone is trying to validate their own carelessness when they argue this point.

 

[torpid]

I personally lock up my firearms when not in use (in a safe and a quick access lockbox), and advocate doing the same (though I am not for legislating it).

But I do find it extremely fishy when doctors ask about firearms in the home in the interest of "general safety", when many are part of an organization that is actively engaged in attempting to outlaw handguns and "assault rifles" nationwide, and as part of this efforts recommends that the physician ask about the firearms ownership status of the patient or guardian in the interest of "general safety".

.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

My issue with the doctor asking would be that I do not see how it would effect the childs general health. It might make him more likely to be injured in an accidental firearm discharge but how would it affect him in any other way that the doctor would need to know about. I can understand if he asked if the parents smoked, drank (if the boy had injuries), cooked meth, or even if the house had lead paint. I am not a doctor so I might be missing something.

 

[Waitone]

My dad too the mystery out of guns and matches. Neither were locked up. I could "play" with either any time I wanted simply by asking. He was there and provided helpful hints. At no time did I ever touch a gun without him being present. Just didn't have the desire since I could play with either any time I wanted and he was present.

That said, just like the 4 safety rules constitute layers of protection, so too a kid ought to have layers of protection. Eddie Eagle, training in not use, removal of mystery, severe consequences for breaking the rules, locks/safes, hidden, etc. Teach the kid to never break the rules, then assume the kid will break the rules.

 

[Mad Chemist]

The only unlocked weapon in my house is my CCW, it's always within reach. Everything else is locked up unless I'm using it. I don't have kids, but my sister has four ages 6-14. The three oldest ones hunt with dad and they shoot. None of them have access to the gun safe. I don't think any of them would ever mess with the guns without permission, but you can't always know or trust all of their friends. The morals and upbringing of your childrens friends are out of your control. No matter how well you teach your own children, you can't guarantee that they won't start hanging out with a bunch of dumbasses. It eventually will happen.
Regardless of children, I still think leaving unsecured loaded weapons around the house is a dumb idea. The only one you'll have an immediate need for is your CCW.

JH

 

[Okiecruffler]

Just a few points

I don't have a Psych degree (wife does, big know it all), heck, I don't even have a BSN, just a lowly little ADN here (well an ADN with PALS, ACLS, CCRN, Chemo cert and more than a few trauma certs). But I have worked in the only real PICU in this state now for 6 years. You know how many gun shot kids I've seen?
Two.
Care to guess how many drownings, unrestrained MVA's, shaken babies, accidental meth Od's, etc I've seen. I'm betting you're guessing too low.
My doctor asked me once if I had any guns in my house, then asked if we could go out and let him try my mosins.
One of my most frequent shooting partners right now is one of my attending pediatric intensivist. He has 3 kids of his own, I gave one of them a Marlin mod 60.
But here you go Penguin, I'll throw you a bone. I was raised around guns, and boy did I play with them every chance I got. Using the logic of many posters, since I played with them, all children must. Course I also looked thru my dad's girly mags and played with lighters. Even made a pipe bomb or three. Wasn't because my folks were bad parents, just cause I was a rotten kid.
And I should add that I've seen the John Wayne collection at the Cowboy Hall of Fame. Nice bit of hardware for an anti. And he never really denied we stole America from the Indians, just said they weren't really using it, so why shouldn't have we.

 

[akodo]

I think this is more a requirement imposed by insurance companies. I guess they are right that if you have a gun in your home you are more likely to have a gun related accident than someone who does not.

first part is not true. You have doctor/patient confinentiality, your doctor cannot be divulging stuff you tell him to your insurance company. YOU have to release your medical records,etc, if they are applicable.

as far as more likely to have a gun related accident? I don't buy that, too many unrelated factors. Being a drug dealer seems to me to be a much larger predictive condition than being just a gun owner regarding likelyhood of getting shot, either by accident or on purpose.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Akodo, alot of the information gathered at the hospital does not fall under doctor patient confidentiality. I actually saw a disclosure at the hospital once that said "this information is NOT confidential should you choose to include it". Therefore it must be for someone. Treatments, medications, medical history are all covered but some personal bio info is not always covered. it has to do with who gathers it and how it is gathered. As for the quote of mine you just posted...the entire quote read...
I guess they are right that if you have a gun in your home you are more likely to have a gun related accident than someone who does not. But this is like saying "you are more likely to fall down the stairs of a home that actually has stairs than one that has none".
If you look at it that way it is an entirely true statement. If there is no gun in the house the odds of a gun acccident in the home are pretty nill.

 

[LJWebster1]

Update:

My wife wasn't full on the details. I guess the doc did ask about bike riding, safety gear, other activities, too, so it was more a safety lecture than a gun rant. Good thing I didn't send a letter calling him a jerk, huh? I talked to my son about it too, and he didn't think the gun questions were any different from the bicycle questions or the seatbelt questions.

I do think it's silly, and a bit insulting, that doctors think they have to ask that stuff, but I guess there are crappy parents out there.

 

[Curare]

You'd be amazed at some parents I've seen. Thanks for the update on the general safety discussion.

Would have been nice to have more info before you passed judgement initially and created a big uproar with so much "Doctor Hate".

 

[mountainclmbr]

I guess I can see protecting us against proven dangers. But.....I think that all of the childhood gun accidents probably pale in comparison to the 150-250 million who were killed, mostly by bullets, by their own Socialist governments. And who wants to talk about the comparison to medical mistakes that result in death? If there is swift action taken to prevent the greatest causes of premature death, the leftist politicians and the doctors will be in a world of hurt. They would be gone far sooner than my guns if all risks were considered. I would ask my doctor if this is actually what they want. If the doctor maintained the anti-freedom gun hating position, I would probably leave shouting " This Doctor cares more about killing or crippiling medical malpractice protection than about YOU!!!" Many of my family members are in the medical field so I am fully accustomed to slamming their Marxist views! I especially like to volunteer to redistribute their income until their income equals the average salery.

 

[telomerase]

Children will play with them if given the oppotunity no matter how well you teach them.

+1 to Blackhawk. Every farm where I grew up had a rifle or shotgun just sitting at the door or in the barn for shooting varmints. No kid I knew ever "played with them". Of course the kids were all working on the farms, not watching TV all day, so there might be a species difference.

 

[SoonerBJJ]

Okiecruffler- What PICU do you work in? Just curious because I know some of those folks.

 

[jeepmor]

Pretty bold doctor.

I've been shooting since I was 6 years old and my father took the time to make sure I respected firearms. I don't recall ever, no, not ever, going in to "play" with the guns or even fondle them. I had a pellet gun and 22 by the time I was a teen. I knew what they were capable of, and thank my dad for the respect for them that he instilled in me. And no, I don't recall them ever, ever being locked up. They were always in the bedroom stacked up in the corner or buried in a drawer somewhere. I probably would have shot them if we lived in the woods while dad was at work, but then there is all that cover up work, replace the rounds, clean the firearm, y'know. Too much hassle, I could do plenty of damage with my slingshot and not be in any sort of trouble. Plus, hitting birds with a pellet gun got too easy, the slingshot posed a real challenge

I did not grow up on a farm, but I did know what a firearm was and understood at a very young age, again 6, that they were not toys.

I seem to recall his saying how big of a hole the 44 mag would put in a window.....that really stuck. No one wants permanent holes in themselves or others, not even at 6.

jeepmor

 

[geekWithA.45]

The more I think about this, the more I think it requires simplification.

There's no need to debate propriety, boundaries, whether this is an actual medical topic, or any of that nonsense.

It really just comes down to two words, relentlessly applied, whenever the situation of a pediatrician querying a child about guns in the house comes up.

Those two words are "You're Fired.".

Pack up your kid, drop off your co-pay, and get copies of the medical records on the way out.

 

[Okiecruffler]

OUHSC, the onlu PICU in Okla.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

I had a similar situation happen recently with a pediatrician. Apparently, it's the policy of their "professional" group.

Mine did not ask about anything but the firearms and smoking. (we don't smoke). No talk of pools, falling issues, back to sleep, car seats, poisonings, etc.

We no longer use her services. I'm there for health care, not for you to push an agenda upon me. Also, I did write nasty letters to her supervisor(s) since I was there for the lecture and could speak to it.

If they give the whole safety spill I would be fine with it and it would be in context. When it's the primary thing discussed (in my case twice by the doc in training and then hit again by the actual doc) then it's unprofessional and pushing an agenda.

 

[antsi]

-----quote---------
Just a question...are some people not able to grasp the faulty logic behind the statement "it hasn't happened to me therefore it will not happen"? Saying "my son/daughter has not touched my guns" does not mean they will not if given the right opputunity at the right time.
--------------------

Actually, the people on the other side are arguing that it will inevitably happen that the kids will play with the guns. A single counterexample is therefore relevant: if event A failed to happen even once, then you can't say that event A will always happen.

I grew up with unlocked guns in our home: a .38 revolver a 12-ga O/U and a 28-ga side-by-side. I never touched any of them without permission and age-appropriate supervision. Never.

However, I am not advocating this. I keep my guns in a safe. When my son is old enough to have a gun, his will be kept in the safe also. When he's little, he will have to get me to open the safe for him. When he's old enough, I'll let him have access to the safe on his own.

What gripes me about the pediatricians is that they are not practicing evidence-based medicine. As a professional group, they are advocating pointless gun control laws that have never and will never have any effect on safety. Their preoccupation with the issue is all out of proportion to the scope of the problem. They use deceptive statistics and methods to inflate the apparent scope of the problem. They are generally motivated by a nanny-like "we know best" approach to the world. Their patients are children, and they seem somehow to have transferred that perception to everyone else. To the AAP, we're all children and they have to take care of us.

 

[John-Melb]

Isn't it funny how times change, when I was a kid, the family doctor asking anything about dad's gun and had he been using it lately normally meant he was fishing - for a pair of bunnies. (our family Doctor was rather partial to roast rabbit)

As a kid the guns where never locked up at our place and I never touched 'em. To scared if I did the old man would find out and I wouldn't sit down for a week!

 

[Oleg Volk]

hso's moniker stands for Health Safety Officer. His wife is a RN and a physical therapist. I've seen their young child handle firearms. I'd trust her firearms handling more than most experienced gun people I've observed.

Indeed. His kid is careful with guns, in addition to being more gracious and considerate than most people.