Peruta v San Diego, the second verse.

Status
Not open for further replies.

JRH6856

Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2011
Messages
3,828
Location
Flower Mound, TX
"The 9th Circuit has voted to rehear the case en banc. Oral arguments consolidated with Richards v. Prieto will take place at 3:30 pm on June 16, 2015 in Courtroom 1, 3rd Floor Rm 338, James R. Browning U.S. Courthouse, San Francisco – 30 minutes per side – Peruta and Richards to split 30 minutes. Note: Oral arguments have been combined but at this point the two cases have not been combined leaving a theoretical possibility of two separate decisions as a result of the en banc hearing."

"NRA lawyer Chuck Michel predicts Peruta CCW decision will be overturned."

http://blog.californiarighttocarry.org/?page_id=1575
 
Here is a an interesting analysis of the justices on the panel by Charles Nichols, President of California Right to Carry.

"n its landmark decision on the Second Amendment, District of Columbia v. Heller, the US Supreme Court held that the Second Amendment was not unlimited. The Court said that Open Carry is the right guaranteed by the Second Amendment of the United States and that concealed carry in public could be prohibited.

The Plaintiffs in the Peruta and Richards cases include the official state organization of the National Rifle Association – the California Rifle and Pistol Association, the Second Amendment Foundation and the CalGuns Foundation.

All of the plaintiffs have been arguing these past five years and more that California can ban firearms from being openly carried in public despite the unequivocal holding in the Heller decision that:

"[A] right to carry arms openly: "This is the right guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, and which is calculated to incite men to a manly and noble defence of themselves, if necessary, and of their country, without any tendency to secret advantages and unmanly assassinations."""
 
Back in the western days good guys wore their gun on the outside, it was the bad guys that had concealed weapons.
 
The whole Peruta case over here is a mess. In a way, if the Peruta ruling were to be upheld, local sheriff's and Chiefs of police will continue to have discretion on who is issued a permit, and who is not, but only a little better than what currently exists. If Peruta is struck down, local sheriff's and Chiefs of police will continue to have discretion on who is issued a permit, and who is not, however they will be even more emboldened to adopt policies similar to what Los Angeles County & Los Angeles City have; essentially near-zero permit issuance to all those except a very, very connected few.
As long as there exists a "may issue" statewide policy over CCW, citizens will continue to be victimized by elected politicians at the head of law enforcement.
One thing that both sides seem to be in agreement on is that the losing party to the latest round will most assuredly make an appeal to SCOTUS, praying that their case will be accepted for hearing.
Until California adopts a CCW policy based on "shall issue" (if that ever happens), it will take continued decades to strIghten the whole mess out.
 
Considering the plaintiff's arguments in favor of Peruta seems to be the opposite of Heller's finding that CC is unprotected by 2A but OC is, I can see how things could be a mess
 
I live in Los Angeles County and am hoping that either Peruta is upheld and the local authorities start behaving accordingly, or it goes to the Supreme Court and we win there.

Regarding open carry, while for me personally it would be logistically a lot easier to wear a gun openly compared to concealed, I'd be worried that it would make me a target like that guy who recently got attacked in a Wal-Mart. Besides which it would freak out a fair number of people that I need to interact with.
 
JRH6856 said:
Here is a an interesting analysis of the justices on the panel by Charles Nichols,...

....All of the plaintiffs have been arguing these past five years and more that California can ban firearms from being openly carried in public despite the unequivocal holding in the Heller decision that:

"[A] right to carry arms openly: "This is the right guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, and which is calculated to incite men to a manly and noble defence of themselves, if necessary, and of their country, without any tendency to secret advantages and unmanly assassinations."""...
Charles Nichols is wrong. He does not know what he is talking about, and he misrepresents what the Court said in Heller.

The Supreme Court in Heller absolutely did not hold what Charles Nichols says. The quote is not the words of the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court is quoting an 1850 decision of the Louisiana Supreme Court (State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann. 489, 490 (1850)) as part of its discussion of the history of Second Amendment decisional law.

Here is the full text of that portion of the Heller decision in which that quote appears (Dist. of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), at 611 -- 613, emphasis added, footnoted omitted):
...Many early 19th-century state cases indicated that the Second Amendment right to bear arms was an individual right unconnected to militia service, though subject to certain restrictions. A Virginia case in 1824 holding that the Constitution did not extend to free blacks explained that “numerous restrictions imposed on [blacks] in our Statute Book, many of which are inconsistent with the letter and spirit of the Constitution, both of this State and of the United States as respects the free whites, demonstrate, that, here, those instruments have not been considered to extend equally to both classes of our population. We will only instance the restriction upon the migration of free blacks into this State, and upon their right to bear arms.” Aldridge v. Commonwealth, 2 Va. Cas. 447, 449 (Gen. Ct.). The claim was obviously not that blacks were prevented from carrying guns in the militia....See also Waters v. State, 1 Gill 302, 309 (Md. 1843) (because free blacks were treated as a “dangerous population,” “laws have been passed to prevent their migration into this State; to make it unlawful for them to bear arms; to guard even their religious assemblages with peculiar watchfulness”). An 1829 decision by the Supreme Court of Michigan said: “The constitution of the United States also grants to the citizen the right to keep and bear arms. But the grant of this privilege cannot be construed into the right in him who keeps a gun to destroy his neighbor. No rights are intended to be granted by the constitution for an unlawful or unjustifiable purpose.” United States v. Sheldon, in 5 Transactions of the Supreme Court of the Territory of Michigan 337, 346 (W. Blume ed. 1940) (hereinafter Blume). It is not possible to read this as discussing anything other than an individual right unconnected to militia service. If it did have to do with militia service, the limitation upon it would not be any “unlawful or unjustifiable purpose,” but any nonmilitary purpose whatsoever.

In Nunn v. State, 1 Ga. 243, 251 (1846), the Georgia Supreme Court construed the Second Amendment as protecting the “natural right of self-defence” and therefore struck down a ban on carrying pistols openly. Its opinion perfectly captured the way in which the operative clause of the Second Amendment furthers the purpose announced in the prefatory clause, in continuity with the English right:

“The right of the whole people, old and young, men, women and boys, and not militia only, to keep and bear arms of every description, and not such merely as are used by the militia, shall not be infringed, curtailed, or broken in upon, in the smallest degree; and all this for the important end to be attained: the rearing up and qualifying a well-regulated militia, so vitally necessary to the security of a free State. Our opinion is, that any law, State or Federal, is repugnant to the Constitution, and void, which contravenes this right, originally belonging to our forefathers, trampled under foot by Charles I. and his two wicked sons and successors, re-established by the revolution of 1688, conveyed to this land of liberty by the colonists, and finally incorporated conspicuously in our own Magna Charta!”​

Likewise, in State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann. 489, 490 (1850), the Louisiana Supreme Court held that citizens had a right to carry arms openly: “This is the right guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, and which is calculated to incite men to a manly and noble defence of themselves, if necessary, and of their country, without any tendency to secret advantages and unmanly assassinations.”...
Note also in the foregoing that the Court cites a Virginia case, Aldridge v. Commonwealth, and a Maryland case, Waters v. State, each of which (1) holds that the Second Amendment describes an individual right; and (2) sustains law barring Black from possession firearms.

Heller had nothing to do with carrying a gun and the issue did not arise in the case. The actual holding of the Court in Heller is summarized in the syllabus (at 570 -- 572, note that the pages numbers following each paragraph of the syllabus key to the section of the decision as published at 128 S.Ct. 2783 in which each holding is covered):
Held:

1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Pp. 2788 – 2816.

(a) The Amendment's prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause's text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms. Pp. 2788 – 2799.

(b) The prefatory clause comports with the Court's interpretation of the operative clause. The “militia” comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. The Antifederalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable this citizens' militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens' militia would be preserved. Pp. 2799 – 2803.

(c) The Court's interpretation is confirmed by analogous arms-bearing rights in state constitutions that preceded and immediately followed the Second Amendment. Pp. 2802 – 2804.

(d) The Second Amendment's drafting history, while of dubious interpretive worth, reveals three state Second Amendment proposals that unequivocally referred to an individual right to bear arms. P. 2804.

(e) Interpretation of the Second Amendment by scholars, courts and legislators, from immediately after its ratification through the late 19th century also supports the Court's conclusion. Pp. 2804 – 2812.

(f) None of the Court's precedents forecloses the Court's interpretation. Neither United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542, 553, 23 L.Ed. 588, nor Presser v. Illinois, 116 U.S. 252, 264–265, 6 S.Ct. 580, 29 L.Ed. 615, refutes the individual-rights interpretation. United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174, 59 S.Ct. 816, 83 L.Ed. 1206, does not limit the right to keep and bear arms to militia purposes, but rather limits the type of weapon to which the right applies to those used by the militia, i.e., those in common use for lawful purposes. Pp. 2812 – 2816.


2. Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court's opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller's holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. Pp. 2816 – 2817.

3. The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to self-defense) violate the Second Amendment. [128 S.Ct. 2787] The District's total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibition—in the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acute—would fail constitutional muster. Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional. Because Heller conceded at oral argument that the D.C. licensing law is permissible if it is not enforced arbitrarily and capriciously, the Court assumes that a license will satisfy his prayer for relief and does not address the licensing requirement. Assuming he is not disqualified from exercising Second Amendment rights, the District must permit Heller to register his handgun and must issue him a license to carry it in the home. Pp. 2817 – 2822.


JRH6856 said:
Considering the plaintiff's arguments in favor of Peruta seems to be the opposite of Heller's finding that CC is unprotected by 2A but OC is,...
Except that is not what the Supreme Court decided in Heller. Charles Nichols is notorious for peddling his misrepresentation of the Heller decision.

I urge everyone who is in doubt on that point to read the entire Heller decision. The majority decision may be read here.
 
Last edited:
Thanks, Frank. I do need to re-read Heller as it has been a while. I did recall the text Nichols quoted, but not the context. Thanks for the correction.
 
Regarding CC vs OC, what other rights do we have which may only be exercised in public, with an explicit ban on using them in an unseen manner? I think OC and CC are tied together, regardless the courts' gradual progression towards shall issue CC and unlicensed OC.

TCB
 
Tomorrow is going to be worth paying attention to, if I can find a way to hear the arguments remotely, as I can not be at the courthouse (not even sure if it is possible for a citizen to attend) to observe, but I am highly interested. Here in Kern County not as many folks have watched as closely, partly because our Sheriff is very good about granting CCW permits to more common folk, as many who apply and navigate the process are successful, while in neighboring Los Angeles County their chances are essentially zero, zip, nada. Same for a number of jurisdictions around the Bay Area. Stay tuned, this likely will be a few more years at least.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top