Piers Morgan is winning...

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I disagree, but I do believe that there are right and wrong ways to frame the "tyrannical" point. Ben Shapiro handled it the best way possible, and speaking of the possibility of eventually facing such a government, while being clear to illustrate that he wasn't talking about an imminent threat. The wrong way is to rant in a way that gives the impression that you're about to spring into action.

I do not believe that we should back off of the original intent of the 2A. We just have to be smart about how we present it.
 
The 2nd Amendment was written for a purpose, but I think that using it as a fig leaf gets in the way of dealing with the root problem of not respecting individual freedoms. If we are not the majority, the majority can remove the 2nd Amendment from the constitution. The majority may also not respect our idea of self defense.
 
While the clear intent of the 2nd Amendment is to allow the people to resist a tyrannical government, should one take power, this is an argument that is not going to sway people who aren't already predisposed to beliefs in self-actualization, individual liberty, and responsibility.

Plus it's an extremely scary topic. Forcing people to think about scary topics tends to produce a negative response to the messenger, because generally people don't like to think about scary, traumatic concepts.

We seem to have reached a point where a lot of people in the neutral to mildly anti-2A part of the debate are willing to buy into the notion that privately owned firearms have a legitimate roll in defending themselves or their children from criminals. Rather than going all fire and brimstone on the idea of a civil war and turning those parts of the population back towards the anti-2A side, we should be coopting them on the notion that they seem more responsive to now, that armed citizens are a legitimate and valuable augment to local police for both personal and collective security.
 
The only way we are going to stop this endless cycle of gun ban attempts is to become the majority. The gun ban movements are based on ignorant stereotypes of firearms owners. We need to evangelize BIG time, break down the stereotypes and take the steam out of the bigotry.

+1000, "They" becoming "us" is the only endgame we can afford to play for. There is absolutely no reason why a respect for the RKBA and an affinity for gun ownership should not span Republicans, Democrats, Liberals, Conservatives, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Black, White, Brown, Purple, etc. We must develop a controlling interest in both parties and in all walks of life. Luckily, the facts and reason are on our side and patient education of the ignorant can bring them into the fold.

Assimilation is the name of the game.

I do believe that the silver lining on the clouds of recent gun control pushes are the multitudes that have purchased a firearm based on the concern that it might be banned in the near future. Usually once these folks have a chance to shoot, enjoy and learn about their new purchase, they are well on the way to joining our side. Several folks in my office came about their first gun in this way, and are fast becoming 2A supporters.
 
To Piers;

Why do you need the 1st amendment? You don't need speech questioning the our government (in your case the queen). They wouldn't lie to you or try to oppress you. So why do you NEED free speech?

You don't, so ****!

Debating rights with someone who bows to a queen is absurd.
 
Agree with the OP and several other posters. As GTscotty points out, we're in the long-haul for this. Our goal is to get as many people to think our way (Pro-2A) then their way. Going hard-liner on the lay populace will only push them away and simply reaffirm their beliefs.

Yes, the point of the 2A is to resist tyranny by the government, I do not dispute that. But, that is something we should remind people of, but not focus and grind. This a sales pitch, guys. We must package this in terms that the average middle of the road person can read and go "huh, that's something I can agree with!"

I doubt the majority of the population right now is worried that "The Government" is actively oppressing and enslaving them, imposing their will on them, and keeping a boot on their neck. They are worried about the economy, education, their kids, and crime.

Focus on things people worry about, and promote that. Here's a few example: Worried about crime? A AR15 is a much better home defense weapon then a pistol, and costs almost the same! Also, its easier to use effectively! Why do you need more then 10 rounds? Didn't you hear, home invasions are at an all time high. You might need only a few rounds if there's 1 guy, but what if there's 3 or 5? Well why not a shotgun? Well, an AR15 is easier to shoot, and it carries less risk to your neighbors or your child in the other room then a shotgun OR a pistol!

Take their "Think of the Children" and run with it. Ask them to think of their children and if they can adequately protect them in their own home.

Now, there is an element of logic and reason in the above example, but also a more subtle element of playing on people's underlying fears as well. If something is seen in the light of "this will protect you from something you're worried about" it goes from a "why does anyone need this" to "why don't I have one already?"

The thing to remember is this is not about the moral high ground as much as its about a damn good sales pitch. If people buy it, we win.

We don't need to be just right, we need to be successful.
 
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Plus it's an extremely scary topic. Forcing people to think about scary topics tends to produce a negative response to the messenger, because generally people don't like to think about scary, traumatic concepts.

We seem to have reached a point where a lot of people in the neutral to mildly anti-2A part of the debate are willing to buy into the notion that privately owned firearms have a legitimate roll in defending themselves or their children from criminals. Rather than going all fire and brimstone on the idea of a civil war and turning those parts of the population back towards the anti-2A side, we should be coopting them on the notion that they seem more responsive to now, that armed citizens are a legitimate and valuable augment to local police for both personal and collective security.

I agree 100%. I think one of the most important things we can do is to get the people in the middle ground on our
 
I think the reason so many are against the idea of defending themselves against the government is because many people have loved ones in the military, National Guard, and in the police force. Many people don't like the idea of shooting on-duty police officers.

Another issue, in my opinion, is poorly defined terms and concepts. What is an assault weapon? What is tyranny? What is a free state?
 
I heard on a large media site a few days ago that Morgan is going to be pushed back to the 9, maybe 10PM slot. That is not what happens when your show is thought highly of. I suspect that the muckity mucks are tiring of this subject, which seems to be the core of his show every single day.


I think he's losing..... not winning......

I also think gun owners are winning.....

Made signs with the family for gun appreciation day. Will be sporting my "Keep Calm and Carry One" shirt from endotactical (check out their shirts at endotactical.com, no i am not an employee of shill)
 
Weren't there THREE reasons for an armed citizenry?

a) to defend against criminals
b) to defend against foreign invasion
c) to defend against usurpers

Might be good to present the balance here.


Just watched a video where the articulate pro-gun person pointed out that both the citizens and the police were up against the same criminals....so why shouldn't the citizens have at least the same defense (an AR15) as the police can bring to bear?
 
I think we need to be clear about something. The concept of winning is the outcome of some kind of contest. Piers Morgan and the many similar Progressive interviewers are not presenting a debate where there can be a winner. It's a setup and the outcome will always be to the advantage of Morgan. The idea is not to have a discussion, but to make gun owners look bad. The best thing is to not participate at all.
 
"the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"

Frankly, these are the operative words. My reason for keeping and bearing arms is my business, and giving any reason for exercising my rights allows others to rationalize why I should not have those rights.
 
The ENTIRE Bill of Rights is there to protect us from our government....

Thomas Jeffrerson said:
I will now tell you what I do not like. First, the omission of a bill of rights, providing clearly and without the aid of sophism for freedom of religion, freedom of the press, protection against standing armies, restriction of monopolies, the eternal and unremitting force of the habeas corpus laws, and trials by jury in all matters of fact triable by the laws of the land and not by the laws of nations. To say, as Mr. Wilson does, that a bill of rights was not necessary because all is reserved in the case of the general government, which is not given, while in the particular ones, all is given which is not reserved, might do for the audience to which it was addressed, but it is surely a gratis dictum [a mere assertion], the reverse of which might just as well be said; and it is opposed by strong inferences from the body of the instrument as well as from the omission of the clause of our present Confederation, which had made the reservation in express terms.

It was hard to conclude because there has been a want of uniformity among the states as to the cases triable by jury, because some have been so incautious as to dispense with this mode of trial in certain cases, therefore, the more prudent states shall be reduced to the same level of calamity. It would have been much more just and wise to have concluded the other way, that as most of the states had preserved with jealousy this sacred palladium of liberty, those who had wandered should be brought back to it; and to have established general right rather than general wrong. For I consider all the ill as established which may be established. I have a right to nothing which another has a right to take away; and Congress will have a right to take away trials by jury in all civil cases. Let me add that a bill of rights is what the people are entitled to against every government on earth, general or particular; and what no just government should refuse or rest on inference.
 
Agree with the OP and several other posters. As GTscotty points out, we're in the long-haul for this. Our goal is to get as many people to think our way (Pro-2A) then their way. Going hard-liner on the lay populace will only push them away and simply reaffirm their beliefs.

Yes, the point of the 2A is to resist tyranny by the government, I do not dispute that. But, that is something we should remind people of, but not focus and grind. This a sales pitch, guys. We must package this in terms that the average middle of the road person can read and go "huh, that's something I can agree with!"
Yep.

So here's the thing, the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers and the Founders themselves do talk about the right to bear arms being a way to resist a tyrannical government, but that isn't the only thing. They speak of a continuum of uses for the right to bear arms, from personal defense all the way up to resisting tyranny.

We 2A advocates do ourselves a disservice when we jump straight to the most extreme need for personal arms while ignoring, or not exploring, all of the other uses. Yes, it is ONE of the things that our inherent right to personal defense encompasses, but it is also the one that makes us look like complete loons.

Sure, the 2A doesn't mention hunting, as we are so fond of reciting, but the founders supporting documents sure do.

Interestingly, if you read the early drafts of the 2A it becomes clear that the Founders were quite aware of the ultimate purpose of the 2A. Check out this early version:

James Madison said:
"A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, being the best security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; but no one religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person."

Kind of destroys the whole Militia = National Guard nonsense the Anti's spout doesn't it? That is why people who bring up the Militia = National Guard thing should be treated as buffoons. Remember that the first thing that Britain tried to do when they were attempting to quell the rebellious colonies was to destroy the militias.

Also:

James Madison said:
Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger. The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops.

Smart dude.

Oh, and on topic, people like Piers Morgan are exactly why we fought a war with Great Britain. His opinion about our founding documents is irrelevant.
 
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Piers Morgan winning? I don't think so . In everything he has done so far he has revealed himself as an upper class twit and an elitist without an historical clue.
 
Well, the real problem here is playing into his hands. There is no such thing as an Assault Weapon (or, every singular gun ever made in history is an assault weapon - one or the other). They've labeled features of rifles and equated them with military weapons, which they're not. Military weapons may share some features, or even be able to share accessories, but fundamentally they're not the same firearm - the difference between a fully automatic selective fire weapon and a semi automatic cannot be overstated, it's all the difference in the world. The .223 moves from being a good varmint cartridge, to being something exponentially more powerful when fired full auto.

They are winning with a type of a straw man argument - they've taken features of a weapon that are similar to another weapon, and created a new term to classify them both with. And every time we echo it back to them, they score points.

Somebody in the know needs to point out this whole "assault weapon" language is simply incorrect; there's no such thing. No army in the world has ever or will ever carry an AR15 into battle, it's not a military firearm, never has been, and never will be.
 
I'll agree that we have at least as good of a case, probably better, if we emphasize self-defense use of firearms.
The Supreme Court did affirm that the Second Amendment is an individual right and that citizens have the right to use firearms in "common use" to defend themselves.
One thing - how do we get the NRA to get on board with this? So far I see a lot of messages from them on facebook, but what is their plan?

We need a PR campaign to combat all the idiots like Piers Morgan emphasizing self-defense (which is important even to most gun owners who don't own military style rifles) and maybe with one or two parts talking about tyrannical government like the article that guy from the former Soviet Union wrote. We've gotten tyrannical government out there and I don't think that's entirely bad - people are concerned about some kind of unrest these days and it's smart to make them think about the worst case scenario. I liked how Shapiro argued that he fears the possibility of a tyrannical government coming to power within the next 100 years, which is what I fear too.
I don't think it will come tomorrow, but without the Second Amendment still providing enough teeth among the population to prevent it, I am sure it would happen eventually.
 
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