Pietta black powder revolver tested for hardness.

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SMRR, that is an interesting article. If you use Firefox you can override the security and get into the Remington forum.
 
I have a security warning (outdated certificate) while accessing the page but if I click through it, I can still access all the threads. Creating a new thread is a different kind of animal though as I cannot log into my account anymore.
That’s strange. I’m logged in.
 
As best as I can tell, Colt didn’t start using steel until the 1860 Army revolver. There are some stories (maybe not all are reputable, but there are enough accounts to convince me that at least some are true) of early cylinders failing. A good blacksmith (should he have been so engaged) would not be able to even the odds, because he would still be working with iron. Our mild steel repros are at least better than that. By a long shot. (I’m not advocating trying to make your Italian BP repro into a .44 magnum though!)

"Colt didn’t start using steel until the 1860 Army revolver."
I too have read several times that both the Patterson and the Walker were made of wrought iron. Wrought iron is far weaker than low carbon steel because it has slag inclusions that make very effective stress risers, I don't doubt the exploding cylinders stories in the least, a Walker made today in Italy is not likely to explode unless there's a bullet lodged in the barrel or someone pours smokeless in them.

Colt used steel for barrels and cylinders starting in 1860. They used wrought iron for frames up until the smokeless era.

Howdy Again

The following is from Jerry Kuhnhausen's The Colt Single Action Revolvers, a Shop Manual, Volumes 1 & 2. I have quoted it so many times that I typed it out and saved it as a word file. It has to do with the materials used in making the Single Action Army cartridge revolver.

"1. Early black powder model S.A.A. frames up to about s/n 96,000 (up to about mid 1883) were made of malleable iron.

2. Intermediate S.A.A. frames between approx. s/n 96,000 and 180,000 (mid 1883 to mid 1898) vary but were apparently made of transitional materials generally similar to modern low-medium carbon steels. The lowest carbon content found in intermediate s/n S.A.A. frames tested to date is approx. .0155, indicating the possibility that early formulations of 1015~1018, or higher carbon type steels may have been used in many frames of this era.

3. Although there are exceptions, frames manufactured after s/n 180,000 appear to have been made from medium range carbon steels. The lowest carbon content found in the after s/n 180,000 frames tested was approx. .0213, possibly indicating that 1020~1027 or slightly higher, carbon, or similar steels may have been used in these frames.

4.1st Generation S.A.A. cylinder material changes began to occur at about the same time that S.A.A. frames were being metallurgically updated. Cylinders prior to approx. s/n 96,000 (mid 1883) were made from materials generally resembling high grade malleable iron. Original cylinders from approx. s/n 96,000 to about 180,000 (mid 1898) were made from transitional low/medium grade carbon type steels. These cylinders and their parent frames were not factory guaranteed for smokeless powder cartridges. Cylinders after frame s/n 180,000 (mid 1898) began to be made from medium carbon type steels. Later versions of these cylinders were better and more uniformly heat treated. S.A.A. revolvers with cylinders of this final type were factory guaranteed in 1900 for standard factory load smokeless powder cartridges.

5.1st Generation 357 Magnum cylinders were made from fine grade, higher tensile strength ordnance quality gun steel. These cylinder blanks, identified by a 5 pointed star imprinted on the front, turn up on other caliber S.A.A.’s made during, and after 1935. (The 357 Magnum was introduced in 1935.)"

My point is, Colt was using Malleable Iron for cylinders and frames for the 1873 Single Action Army cartridge revolver from its inception in 1873 until mid 1883. So if Colt was using steel for cylinders and frames of their Cap & Ball revolvers, why in the world would they have reverted to iron for the SAA? I doubt it. I suspect that all the older C&B revolvers had iron frames and iron cylinders.

Yes, that is exactly why the Walker model was so prone to blowing up, the iron cylinders could not take the massive powder charges it was capable of holding.

Just a note about Malleable or Wrought Iron. It is not the same as cast iron. Cast iron is full of impurities from the casting process. Cast iron cannot be forged. Malleable iron was made by remelting pig iron and removing the impurities. Malleable iron can be forged and was an excellent candidate for forged parts such as a revolver frame. As late as 1875 Smith and Wesson was using Malleable Iron for the frames of the Schofield revolver.
 
Ok, guys so I and my crew here in northern Montana are testing these italian cap guns far and wide so next piece we put our hands on was a pietta 1858 remington stainless cylinder that gunsmiths' customer was himself curious about the steel and allowed us to test it for hardness.

upload_2022-2-20_20-59-40.jpeg

To our suprise this thing is made of proper gun steel. It is magnetic stainless and it tested at about 28RC. That's a jump from near 0 as our previous pieces tested.
This is a spare cylinder and the gunsmith was fitting it to the customers' gun. He said that this steel is unlike any other he has worked with in italian cap guns. Much, MUCH harder and sturdier. He believes that it is finally a proper stainless gun steel unlike the mild, construction grade steels he dealt before. We believe this is 400 series stainless.

Notice: This is only true for pietta, we haven't tested Uberti stainless but their stainless is not magnetic at all and cannot be 400 series.

My belief is that as pietta stainless runs are limited to 1858 remington and not very numerous they might use the same steel they do for smokeless guns as it is not viable to order different steel for few stainless cap guns. On the other hand, they produce A LOT of blued cap guns both colts and remingtons so it makes perfect sense to order a different steel to cut cost and work time.
 
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To our suprise this thing is made of proper gun steel. It is magnetic stainless and it tested at about 28RC. That's a jump from near 0 as our previous pieces tested.

Were the blued cylinders tested, or just other parts? Just curious to know if the blued cylinders were perhaps a different grade than the frames/barrels/whatever else.
 
Ok, guys so I and my crew here in northern Montana are testing these italian cap guns far and wide so next piece we put our hands on was a pietta 1858 remington stainless cylinder that gunsmiths' customer was himself curious about the steel and allowed us to test it for hardness.

View attachment 1061185

To our suprise this thing is made of proper gun steel. It is magnetic stainless and it tested at about 28RC. That's a jump from near 0 as our previous pieces tested.
This is a spare cylinder and the gunsmith was fitting it to the customers' gun. He said that this steel is unlike any other he has worked with in italian cap guns. Much, MUCH harder and sturdier. He believes that it is finally a proper stainless gun steel unlike the mild, construction grade steels he dealt before. We believe this is 400 series stainless.

Notice: This is only true for pietta, we haven't tested Uberti stainless but their stainless is not magnetic at all and cannot be 400 series.

My belief is that as pietta stainless runs are limited to 1858 remington and not very numerous they might use the same steel they do for smokeless guns as it is not viable to order different steel for few stainless cap guns. On the other hand, they produce A LOT of blued cap guns both colts and remingtons so it makes perfect sense to order a different steel to cut cost and work time.


As i read this i had 4 words come through my mind........ They were : .... Well.... Son of a b****


Lol

I didnt see that coming!
 
Were the blued cylinders tested, or just other parts? Just curious to know if the blued cylinders were perhaps a different grade than the frames/barrels/whatever else.

I share with ya all our testing. So far we have tested blued Pietta barrel and screw, Uberti barrel and now stainless pietta cylinder. That being said, we haven't tested the blued cylinder YET. It is possible they are different grade steel but what I can tell you now is that this stainless cylinder is MUCH harder than blued counterparts. As I said before, I'm pretty sure it is 400 series stainless, good stuff.
 
In the meantime, let me share with you few pictures the gunsmith sent me.

Basically pietta dimension tolerances are nuts and some spare cylinders need to be fitted to the gun (the cylinder was oversized). As the customer had a fully functional revolver with a factory cylinder, the only viable course of action was to modify the spare cylinder to fit the gun not the other way round. Standard procedure is that you remove material from the cylinder and check if it fits after few passes and then remove and check until the cylinder fits.

This is exactly what the gunsmith did but little did the know that he would actually damage the barrel by trying to fit the cylinder that was a bit oversized. The contact area between the barrel and cylinder was so small that the cylinder face would basically start cutting into the barrel while hand pressure was applied to get cylinder in place.

How is that possible? Spare cylinder in question was stainless and quite hard (28RC) compared to the crap mild steel barrel (3-5RC) and contact area was very small (the cylinder was less than 0.010" oversized). I've never managed to damage the barrel in any of my blued guns similar way with a blued cylinder so I guess it tells something.

Damaged part of the barrel where fitting took place, picture 1/2.
upload_2022-2-23_20-42-47.jpeg

Damaged part of the barrel where fitting took place, picture 2/2.
upload_2022-2-23_20-43-32.jpeg

Intact part of the barrel (the other side).
upload_2022-2-23_20-44-11.jpeg

I guess, it might put some light on the viability of using stainless cylinders in blued guns. I suspect this will result in increased wear and coining of the blued frame. On the other hand, the ratchet in a stainless cylinder is identical to the blued counterpart. After the cylinder was shortened to fit the blued frame it worked just fine.
 
"Colt used steel for barrels and cylinders starting in 1860. They used wrought iron for frames up until the smokeless era."
Pretty much agrees with my memory of it except I didn't know they used wrought iron that late. Wrought iron makes an interesting crap shoot in a barrel or chamber. ;) But it would work OK in a frame.
So many materials and tools machinists use daily now just weren't available in 1836, steel was far less common than WI. Sam Colt and his Machine shop foreman were literally geniuses.

Both the Patterson and Walker were made a ways earlier than 1860 of course.

I read once that the little over under .41 rimfire derringers made by Remington had cast iron frames, this came up because someone asked about why the hinge areas were so prone to break.
Wrought Iron would have been a step up for Remington frames if that's true.
 
"Just a note about Malleable or Wrought Iron. It is not the same as cast iron."

No, they aren't.

They are three distinct types of iron. If Walkers and Patterson frames were made of malleable iron, which is just cast iron before a prolonged heat treatment to turn the jagged carbon inclusions into spherical inclusions basically (Same as 95% of better quality bench vises) that's the first time I've seen that in print.

You can bend malleable iron, but not cast iron. I'd guess both malleable and wrought iron would be fine for the frames.

Neither cast iron nor wrought iron is suitable for barrels or cylinders, and malleable isn't much better when compared to homogeneous steel.

Apparently rifle barrels earlier than that (1836) were made of strips of wrought iron bent red hot around a mandrel and hammer welded, that would make them 100% wrought iron it seems to me, and I hadn't seen any mentions of squirrel rifles or muskets exploding. (?) Perhaps the wall thicknesses were larger.
 
I don't know anything about metal but some time ago over on the American Longrifles forum they were talking about ductility, or toughness, being important not just hardness.
 
…Howdy

Barrel hardness is irrelevant.

The cylinder is the pressure vessel in any revolver, whether it is a modern revolver or a reproduction of a Cap & Ball revolver.

Back sometime in the 1920s or so, IIRC, Smith and Wesson began heat treating cylinders to improve their tensile strength. As far as I know they never heat treated barrels...

S&W started heat treating revolver cylinders in 1917 at the request of the U S Army. All 1917s have heat treated cylinders.

In 38 S&W Special revolvers (K frame), heat treating started at serial number 316648, about September of 1919.

The K frame 32-20 had heat treated cylinders starting at serial number 81287, also 1919.

Starting in 1935, all cylinders for magnum cartridges were heat treated.

Because of advances in steel, I am no longer certain if cylinders are heat treated or to what extent. I have never found a cylinder that was not easily nicked with a file.

Kevin
 
Several posters have mentioned not to use jacketed bullets as the gilding metal will wear out the barrel! Seriously? Is there any jacketed metal that is harder than steel?

Kevin
 
Botched test. Mild steel has a between 20 and 60. Gray cast iron runs around 20.

I can't rule out the possibility of obtained numbers being erroneous as another person was doing the testing but he tests steel from time to time and is not a total newbie for sure.

That being said, the obtained results are in the realm of "plausible". I've worked with these cheap italian repros and they are anything but hard. A file goes through them with no effort whatsoever.

Mild steel can be as soft as 71 HRB (1 HRC = 82 HRB). Hardness of 3 HRC ( 84HRB) lies right within the mild steel spectrum.

I don't have a habit of speaking my mind with no data to back it up so the mild steel numbers I provided (1018 steel for reference) can be double checked here:
https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6115

However, If you have the machinery necessary to redo the test, I'd love to hear the second party results for reference.

Note: Hardness testing of the barrel might change the bore geometry and degrade performance of the weapon even with the bore plugged as far as I understand. This is why no servicable barrels were tested.
 
This was posted on one of the forums about 10 years ago. I don't remember the details but it must have been a substantial overload.

View attachment 1060617

CapandBall has a video on one that was loaded with a smokeless load that was not the strongest.


This one was a squib load with black powder.
 
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