Pinned Barrels, yes or no

[murf]

I was competing in IPSC when S&W brought out the M686 and stopped pinning their barrels. At one match, a competitor who was a local law enforcement officer told us a story about the fixed sight L frame revolvers his Department had been issued. The non pinned barrel unscrewed on his. LEO decided to play a joke on his unit armorer. He told the unit armorer that he had cleaned his revolver and could not get it back together again. He pulled the cylinder and crane from a paper bag and put that on the table, then the frame, and then lastly the barrel! Need we say the armorer had a strong reaction?

Well something was wrong with that pistol as the barrel did unscrew. While I would prefer a pinned barrel, they are not coming back.

As for recessed cylinders, they probably made sense when shooters were using balloon head cartridges. I have some vintage 45LC balloon head, and I pulled several case heads off in the sizing die. It took hardly any effort, and it was very time consuming knocking the case body out of the die. Those balloon head cases might have been appropriate for black powder, but I bet the weak heads were a continuing problem with smokeless. I believe with modern solid head cartridges, the case head has sufficient support without the recesses. And it is easy to look at the side of the cylinder to see if there are cartridges in there. Popping the cylinder open to examine for loaded rounds takes two hands.

I always find recessed cylinders a pain to clean. Cleaning those shallow recesses of debris is time consuming and I need a pointy thing for the rim holes.

I use gourmet toothpics (much stronger than regular ones) to clean out the recesses on my 22lr revolvers. The carbon build-up is hard enough to require the stronger pick.

murf

 

[murf]

I don't know about references, but I have looked at a few revolvers in my life and do not recall a Colt or S&W .38 Special with rim recesses. Of course it would only take one counterexample to prove they exist.

There have been some .455s converted to .45 LC by recessing for the thicker rims, but that is gunsmith work.

here is a 38-44 heavy duty cylinder with a smooth rear end:


I can't imagine s&w worrying about a handloader shooting a 38-44 pressure load using balloon head cases. On the other hand, loading a 38 special balloon head case to 357 magnum pressure levels and firing in a 357 magnum chambered revolver may have been quite common.

murf

 

[StrawHat]

here is a 38-44 heavy duty cylinder with a smooth rear end:


I can't imagine s&w worrying about a handloader shooting a 38-44 pressure load using balloon head cases. On the other hand, loading a 38 special balloon head case to 357 magnum pressure levels and firing in a 357 magnum chambered revolver may have been quite common.

murf

murf,

Because it was so hard to buy a 357 Magnum Model, many of the Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman models were rechambered to accept the 357 Magnum cartridge. I am not aware of any problems resulting from that practice.

Kevin

 

[orionengnr]

I am not an S&W connoisseur, but I do like the P&R revolvers. Although since my first S&W revolver was/is an M66 no-dash, I must admit I am somewhat biased towards the P&R models.
Have a few, and TBH, I take multiple handguns to the range, and don't shoot more than 50-100 rds per gun each range session.
Also own a few that are not P&R, and that's okay too. Never really noticed a difference in the cleaning regimen.

 

[Barmcd]

I have several pinned barrels on my handguns and a couple that have the resesed cylinders. They look cool, but are they really that much better than non pinned barrels? I know lots prefer the pinned. I'm good either way.

Probably not worth the premium they cost, but I still prefer them over newer models.

 

[357smallbore]

Anymore these days, if it says S&W on a revolver, you're paying a premium. And the older the gun, the more the premium.

Its amazing how much they have shot up in just the past few years.

I have 5 beautiful S&W revolvers. Won't part with them this side of heaven.
1976 blued model 36-2 with a 3in bbl
1981 model 29-2 came new to me with 4in bbl
1983 686 no dash 4in and it ain't going nowhere
1985 624 in 4in and one with a 6.5in bbl

 

[Pat Riot]

I use gourmet toothpics (much stronger than regular ones) to clean out the recesses on my 22lr revolvers. The carbon build-up is hard enough to require the stronger pick.

murf

I will have to keep this in mind. Thanks.

I use the shafts of bamboo handled cotton swabs sharpened in a pencil sharpener. One of the turn crank models, not the little handheld ones.
Once I use the swab I can cut it off and sharpen it for use. I will use the bigger ones like scrapers. I cut the end like a flat screwdriver.

 

[Barmcd]

I will have to keep this in mind. Thanks.

I use the shafts of bamboo handled cotton swabs sharpened in a pencil sharpener. One of the turn crank models, not the little handheld ones.
Once I use the swab I can cut it off and sharpen it for use. I will use the bigger ones like scrapers. I cut the end like a flat screwdriver.

Those sticks used for shiskabob work great.

 

[murf]

murf,

Because it was so hard to buy a 357 Magnum Model, many of the Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman models were rechambered to accept the 357 Magnum cartridge. I am not aware of any problems resulting from that practice.

Kevin

and the mystery of the recessed chambers continues.

murf

 

[murf]

murf,

Because it was so hard to buy a 357 Magnum Model, many of the Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman models were rechambered to accept the 357 Magnum cartridge. I am not aware of any problems resulting from that practice.

Kevin

it would be interesting to find out if the rechamber job included a recess.

murf

 

[mcb]

it would be interesting to find out if the rechamber job included a recess.

murf

That would be allot of work. There is no easy way to add that material back to the cylinder and star to add the recess.

 

[Barmcd]

That would be allot of work. There is no easy way to add that material back to the cylinder and star to add the recess.

Yeah, I doubt that apocryphal story was the genesis of the recessed cylinder.

 

[StrawHat]

it would be interesting to find out if the rechamber job included a recess.

murf

Not that I have heard. A mere lengthening of the chamber to accept the longer cartridge.

Kevin

 

[UncleEd]

According to "Evolutionary Improvements in S&W Revolvers" the pins didn't
even touch the barrels beginning with guns in the 1950s. The article which
is quite lengthy was posted by the RevolverGuy.com. The article also
addresses the history of the recessed chambers.

 

[LAH]

According to "Evolutionary Improvements in S&W Revolvers" the pins didn't
even touch the barrels beginning with guns in the 1950s. The article which
is quite lengthy was posted by the RevolverGuy.com. The article also
addresses the history of the recessed chambers.

Have every reason to believe this is true.

 

[Palladan44]

There is so much more to pinned and recessed Smith's of the yesteryears, besides just being Pinned and recessed. The manufacturing processes were different, and more attention was given to them by an actual person. Hand fitting the actions, etc.
Nothing beats a pinned and recessed N-Frame in my book.

 

[StrawHat]

There is so much more to pinned and recessed Smith's of the yesteryears, besides just being Pinned and recessed. The manufacturing processes were different, and more attention was given to them by an actual person. Hand fitting the actions, etc.
Nothing beats a pinned and recessed N-Frame in my book.

They were hand fitted for a reason, the parts did not fit. Hand fitting takes time, time is money.

Kevin

 

[Palladan44]

They were hand fitted for a reason, the parts did not fit. Hand fitting takes time, time is money.

Kevin

Yes. They are also smoother, there's no denying that. All of the changes that Smith and Wesson made since were to maximize their own profits, and that's it.
Not to give us a better product.

 

[StrawHat]

I have several of the new era revolvers from S&W, (mim, storage lock). Right from the box the were at least as good as previous revolvers from S&W. They were not as good as my competition revolvers but those have had action work. The Model 22-4 was tuned up and it has a very good action, smooth and pops all primers.

Kevin

 

[mcb]

I have several of the new era revolvers from S&W, (mim, storage lock). Right from the box the were at least as good as previous revolvers from S&W. They were not as good as my competition revolvers but those have had action work. The Model 22-4 was tuned up and it has a very good action, smooth and pops all primers.

Kevin

I have shot a lot of USPSA. Talking to the guys that work on the S&W revolvers for competitors most of them would rather start with a newer revolver that uses the MIM parts than the older revolvers. The newer MIM parts are more consistent and take less work to tune them up.

I have used revolvers with both forge and MIM fire controls and to be honest other than my 625 that had extensive action work by a profession when owned by a previous owner I could never really tell that much different.

 

[halfmoonclip]

If I am looking at a revolver considering a purchase and the barrel doesn’t align as it should I don’t even bother with it. Each time that has happened the seller has said something like “Oh, that won’t bother anything.”
I always respond “It bothers me.”

Good point. The ones I have that are out of index aren't out by much; one is a 629 Hunter, which was hard to come by at the time; I swapped a heavy barrel gun on the lugged one. Oddly, I only noticed it recently, and then it did bug me.
Then, having noticed that one, I picked up the problem on a few others. Some things you don't find until you go looking...
Moon

 

[halfmoonclip]

I have shot a lot of USPSA. Talking to the guys that work on the S&W revolvers for competitors most of them would rather start with a newer revolver that uses the MIM parts than the older revolvers. The newer MIM parts are more consistent and take less work to tune them up.

I have used revolvers with both forge and MIM fire controls and to be honest other than my 625 that had extensive action work by a profession when owned by a previous owner I could never really tell that much different.

Now that is interesting. I do like the stainless guns with the forged, hard chromed action parts, but the MIM parts on some others seem to smooth up just fine. I've a 640-1 that is as good as a much older 640 that was tuned up by S&W.
Question I've asked elsewhere; are the MIM parts surface hardened, or are they the same hardness all the way through?
Moon

 

[mcb]

Now that is interesting. I do like the stainless guns with the forged, hard chromed action parts, but the MIM parts on some others seem to smooth up just fine. I've a 640-1 that is as good as a much older 640 that was tuned up by S&W.
Question I've asked elsewhere; are the MIM parts surface hardened, or are they the same hardness all the way through?
Moon

MIM parts can be heat treated or case hardening exactly the same way as a forged part from the same alloy. If you use a low carbon steel to make a MIM or forged trigger you typically case hardening it. If you use a medium to high carbon steel to forge or MIM then you usually quench and temper or austemper it to the desire hardness.

Modern MIM is very close in properties to whatever base metal alloy was powdered to make it. If the MIM parts are HIP'ed (hot isostatic pressed) then the material properties are indistinguishable from a forging of the same material.

Both MIM and forging at simply cheap ways to get near net shape quickly. MIM typically requires less post machining as it is able to create finer details more consistently. Forging can sometimes get away with out heat treatment relying on the work hardening of the forging process. Though to get the most out of most alloys heat treatment is still required.

 

[mavracer]

I have several of the new era revolvers from S&W, (mim, storage lock). Right from the box the were at least as good as previous revolvers from S&W. They were not as good as my competition revolvers but those have had action work. The Model 22-4 was tuned up and it has a very good action, smooth and pops all primers.

Kevin

I've owned Smith's that range from an USGI 1917 to recent production MIM/Lock guns. I also lucked into being able to go thru a collector's stash of NIB guns that ranged from the 40s and newer. The thing that stood out about many of those early guns is that the lowly budget guns (several 10s and a couple 13s) had triggers and actions as good as the guns with target hammer and triggers.

 

[halfmoonclip]

The thing that stood out about many of those early guns is that the lowly budget guns (several 10s and a couple 13s) had triggers and actions as good as the guns with target hammer and triggers.

I've a '30s vintage pre-Model 10, and the simple act of thumbing the action will bring a smile to the face of anyone who appreciates good machinery.
Newer production is actually quite good, but it doesn't feel the same as the old stuff.
Moon