pistol brace overturned?

[bearcreek]

For those of you who don't like the "ask a lawyer" answer

I'm perfectly fine with the "ask a lawyer" answer, when the question is specific to an individual. I think it makes less sense though, when it's 250,000+ individuals who all have the exact same question. Should all of them hire lawyers? How many lawyers are there that could actually be hired for something like that? I know the US has a lot of lawyers, more per capita than any other country, if I understand correctly, but still, a quarter million of them being hired to answer the same question seems sort of illogical.

Would a lawyer's answer provide any legal protection anyway?

 

[rust collector]

Folks are looking for something that doesn't exist. There are no simple facts, no easy and accurate answers. Reasonable minds can and do differ on what the laws require. People can listen to the same presentation and take different things from it. Judges can reach different conclusions from the same facts and statutes. Until the highest court rules on the case or the appeal period runs, nothing is final.

Advice of counsel is sometimes invoked to avoid liability, but it rarely is effective, because the lawyer gives you her opinion based upon the facts you supply and the law she can locate that bears on those facts. The decision on how to proceed is yours. Just as with information tech, garbage (or selective data) in, garbage out. Lawyers are not infallible, but when you engage one, they work with your specific facts and relevant laws. Otherwise, our advice and $10 will get you a cup of coffee. As @Spats McGee notes, we didn't get to this stage of our lives by building castles on shifting sands. We wish it were simple, but if it was, lawyers and CPAs would not be needed.

 

[bearcreek]

Folks are looking for something that doesn't exist. There are no simple facts, no easy and accurate answers.

If you're referring to my post above about asking a lawyer, I think there probably is a simple answer. The question that I was talking about was, "are pistols registered as SBR's under the amnesty treated any different than any other registered SBR?" That question is not specific to one individual. It applies to every single person who registered their braced pistol and if it's a question that needs to be answered (big IF. IMO, the answer is obvious), it would seem that the answer needs to come from the ATF, not one's personally hired lawyer.

 

[HKGuns]

Haven't we learned by this point to stop asking questions of the ATF?

 

[bearcreek]

Haven't we learned by this point to stop asking questions of the ATF?

I'm not suggesting that we ask the ATF. I would be thrilled if the ATF was disbanded tomorrow and all of it's agents were sent to work at Walmart. No one should ask them anything. That said, the fact remains that in the case of that particular question, it's their answer that matters, not the answer from someone's personal lawyer.

 

[Spats McGee]

If you're referring to my post above about asking a lawyer, I think there probably is a simple answer. The question that I was talking about was, "are pistols registered as SBR's under the amnesty treated any different than any other registered SBR?" That question is not specific to one individual. It applies to every single person who registered their braced pistol and if it's a question that needs to be answered (big IF. IMO, the answer is obvious), it would seem that the answer needs to come from the ATF, not one's personally hired lawyer.

And the lawyers in this thread are telling you that there is no simple answer. If you're so sure that there is, and that the answer needs to come from ATF, feel free to contact them for your simple answer.

 

[bearcreek]

And the lawyers in this thread are telling you that there is no simple answer. If you're so sure that there is, and that the answer needs to come from ATF, feel free to contact them for your simple answer.

Which makes perfect sense. That question (the question about the status of SBR's registered for free under the amnesty) is not something that is answerable by someone's personal lawyer, which is why I said that it didn't make sense to suggest to the OP of the thread that I was referencing that he hire one.

Here's the thread I was talking about. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ut-the-brace-injunction.924801/#post-12755954

 

[Spats McGee]

Which makes perfect sense. That question (the question about the status of SBR's registered for free under the amnesty) is not something that is answerable by someone's personal lawyer, which is why I said that it didn't make sense to suggest to the OP of the thread that I was referencing that he hire one.

Here's the thread I was talking about. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ut-the-brace-injunction.924801/#post-12755954

So you came into an open thread to argue a point from a thread that was already closed with the following note?

This is the sort of question for which the op really needs his own lawyer.

Stop that. The other thread was closed for a reason.

 

[bearcreek]

So you came into an open thread to argue a point from a thread that was already closed with the following note?

No. Balrog brought up that subject in this thread and I responded. Is my thinking incorrect? Should all of those folks who registered their braced pistols hire personal lawyers?

 

[Frank Ettin]

...That question (the question about the status of SBR's registered for free under the amnesty) is not something that is answerable by someone's personal lawyer, which is why I said that it didn't make sense to suggest to the OP of the thread that I was referencing that he hire one....

Really? So who can? The ATF?

The final answer is a prediction about how a court is likely to rule based on the relevant facts and law. The ATF can state its view, but that's not binding on a court.

And while it's true that no lawyer can perfectly predict a court's action, he can do the research and form an educated, professional opinion regarding the likelihood of various outcomes in court. And absent court rulings directly on point, that will probably be the answer which could be the most useful for someone trying to decide what to do.

 

[bearcreek]

Really? So who can? The ATF?

The final answer is a prediction about how a court is likely to rule based on the relevant facts and law. The ATF can state its view, but that's not binding on a court.

And while it's true that no lawyer can perfectly predict a court's action, he can do the research and form an educated, professional opinion regarding the likelihood of various outcomes in court. And absent court rulings directly on point, that will probably be the answer which could be the most useful for someone trying to decide what to do.

Just so I make sure I'm following you, you're saying that everyone who registered their braced pistols under the amnesty should all hire attorneys to answer the question? Is that correct?

 

[Frank Ettin]

Just so I make sure I'm following you, you're saying that everyone who registered their braced pistols under the amnesty should all hire attorneys to answer the question? Is that correct?

No, I'm saying that anyone who wants assistance with a personal, serious legal matter which could the involve possibility of significant loss would most likely get a better outcome by hiring an attorney.

 

[bearcreek]

No, I'm saying that anyone who wants assistance with a personal, serious legal matter which could the involve possibility of significant loss would most likely get a better outcome by hiring an attorney.

Thanks for answering. What type of lawyer should people be looking for for that sort of thing?

 

[jmorris]

This is a good ruling, except for the people who took advantage of the free SBR registration period... they converted a pistol to an SBR, and I don't think there is going to be a way to get it unregistered as an SBR. Its gonna create some headaches for them.

What good would that do at this point? I’d keep the free stamp and whatever stock I wanted, on it.

Not like one could erase who you are now, even if you could take the gun off the books, not like they are going to delete your personal data. It would be much more likely that they leak the info to protesters than just flush it all away…

 

[Balrog]

What good would that do at this point? I’d keep the free stamp and whatever stock I wanted, on it.

Not like one could erase who you are now, even if you could take the gun off the books, not like they are going to delete your personal data. It would be much more likely that they leak the info to protesters than just flush it all away…

Agree, just keep the stamp and SBR, and when and if this resolves in favor of the Constitution in the court system, then buy a braced pistol to replace it.

 

[hso]

Just so I make sure I'm following you, you're saying that everyone who registered their braced pistols under the amnesty should all hire attorneys to answer the question? Is that correct?

Just buy a Magic 8 Ball and you'll get as good an answer as currently available and with the same accuracy as any prediction.

Look, no one knows how this is going to turn out until it completes the run through the courts. And even if "we" win then there will be the inevitable state legislation that will have to be fought through the court to some level (New York much?).

Ask a dozen legal professionals and you'll get different answers based on their bias on the issue, but at least you'll have gotten an answer from a legal professional who might advise you on what the issues are for you at this time in the place your live.

No one can predict the future on this with any reliability.

Que sera, sera

 

[bearcreek]

Just buy a Magic 8 Ball and you'll get as good an answer as currently available and with the same accuracy as any prediction.

Agreed. Why hire a lawyer then?

Ask a dozen legal professionals and you'll get different answers based on their bias on the issue, but at least you'll have gotten an answer from a legal professional who might advise you on what the issues are for you at this time in the place your live.

No one can predict the future on this with any reliability.

The question is about one specific part of federal regulation. "Is the status of braced pistols registered as SBR's under the amnesty any different than that of any other SBR?" There may be local variations on the status and enforcement of SBR's, braced pistols, etc. just as there has been since 1934. That isn't what the question is about though. The question is specifically and exclusively about federal regulation, not local. The brace status change, amnesty, free registration etc. etc., came from the ATF. They administer it, interpret it, decide when/if to change it (unless a court decides for them) etc. Given that, as you say, "no one can predict the future on this with any reliability" and given that it's the ATF's call (again, unless a court makes the call for them), do you really think it's worth it for individuals to hire a lawyer to answer this question?

 

[dogtown tom]

Agreed. Why hire a lawyer then?

The question is about one specific part of federal regulation. "Is the status of braced pistols registered as SBR's under the amnesty any different than that of any other SBR?"

No.

 

[bearcreek]

No.

I agree. What led you to that conclusion?

 

[armoredman]

Is the actual "brace rule SBR" stamp issued any different than the $200 stamp?

 

[bearcreek]

Is the actual "brace rule SBR" stamp issued any different than the $200 stamp?

No.

 

[armoredman]

No.

Then I think that answers the question.

 

[bearcreek]

Then I think that answers the question.

I think so too. That's why it baffles me why someone would recommend that a person hire a lawyer to answer the question.

 

[dogtown tom]

I agree. What led you to that conclusion?

Federal law, ATF regulations and Rule 2021R-08F.

 

[Sistema1927]

Is the actual "brace rule SBR" stamp issued any different than the $200 stamp?

For one thing, the "free" SBR registration did not get a stamp. None, nada, zilch. Instead, the approved form is marked with Approval Conditions of "Pursuant to ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F".