Police Face Ammo Shortages

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We all need to remember this, as another tough lesson and the 2nd amendment right (Not granted by, but preserved from gov't authority)...

My mindset is changing. Keeping a supply of ammo, guns, parts, etc. is an extension of helping preserve our right, just as writing letters, assembling by joining like minded people to petition our government (NRA)...

When this slows down, we need to keep up the buying and get the reserves a little deeper.
 
ISnt it the US is now supporting the Syrian rebels? Thats another reason for the ammo shortage . LOL
 
Arbo said:
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...062d923f87db4df15c676da7943&tab=core&_cview=0

Explain to me how hollow points are needed for 'training'....

And of course how buying hollow points saves money over say, lead....
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They aren't "needed," but with the family I have in police departments all over the state of Florida, I can say that they are given "duty" ammo to practice with. Tons of it. And whether or not it gets shot is of little consequence. I know of an uncle right now that has about 300 rounds of .38+P Winchester Ranger and nearly a thousand rounds of 9mm+P+ Winchester Ranger. Granted, this is not from recently, he has been collecting for a couple years now.

Also, to the question of ammo use in "training days," the local department has a fifty-shot course that new officers train on, and often they run through the course ten to fifteen times per day during the academy, which amounts to over 500 rounds per officer per day.
 
Explain to me how hollow points are needed for 'training'....
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Since that's what they'll be carrying on a daily basis, I would be much more comfortable if they had experience shooting the actual stuff they'll be carrying. There are many CCWers on this forum that also recommend practicing with your carry ammo since there can be substantial differences between different ammo types.
 
In each of those training days, a trainee can burn through several thousand rounds and some courses last multiple days.
Again, this is directly from your post.
So as I read what your wrote, a trainee can burn through several thousand rounds a day.
I'm sorry I have to call you on that one. I might see someone firing 200 rounds a day in training at the top end maybe 400. At some point in between there training has turned in to lets burn some ammo up.
What you learn by training isn't always behind the trigger, it is balanced so that the ammo expended counts and shows up in practical exersizes when you are behind the trigger.

There have been a number of posts with people discussing how many rounds they go through in a year in the past. Many serious competitive shooters shoot thousands of rounds in a year. I personally shot a little north of 3.5k rounds last year and I'm not a competitive shooter. I think it's safe to assume that the number who shoot more than that in a year is in the thousands.

But that isn't the point is it, we aren't paying these guys to compete, we are buying the ammunition for them to be competant DHS Officers. I'm sure we would all like to be Bob Munden, but Mr. Munden didn't do it on my dime and you dont need that many rounds to do the training.
I shot a bit of ammo last year, but I shot all year, not just in classes but in practise and competition. I didn't need that many rounds.
I have to be honest, if you're shooting a thousand rounds of handgun ammo in one day , you very well may be doing it wrong.B]
What I will say with all honesty is that I have been a Small Arms Instructor and a Master Gunner.The only way to train is with discipline and a continuous thought process driected toward becomming better, if you require a thousand rounds of ammo per day per student, your system is broken and so are your students.
If you tell me it is to protect the Country, again I call you on that, our State and Local LEO's are far more likely by sheer numbers, area covered and statistics to encounter a need to fire a shot in defence than a Federal Officer.
I have no idea where the ammunition went, but I certainly can't look at these numbers and justify it as training for the DHS unless they have a system of training that has seriously jumped the tracks.
 
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And next up...

Instead of "that agency bought/used X amount of ammo"

It will be, "why don't they qualify more, since they are such poor shots"

The debate of agencies buying ammo to practice with, vs what everyone thinks they need to be the absolute expert has got boring after the last 20 years of hearing "Hey, did you hear how much ammo so and so agency bought?"
 
Why doesn't dhs share some ammo with the local pd's that got caught with their drawer's down? Heck if the fed's just gave them last years ammo the problem would most likely be solved and none of dhs's agents could be accused of taking ammo home while on the way to the local dump to be disposed of. Share your ammo.
 
So as I read what your wrote, a trainee can burn through several thousand rounds a day.
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I said they can burn through several thousands round in a training class. That shooting is spaced out over several days. That said they can go through more than 500 rounds in a day. They are not just burning up ammo for the sake of burning up ammo. They need to learn how to get rounds on target fast and accurately and to pass the class they have to demonstrate that in several practical tests.

But that isn't the point is it, we aren't paying these guys to compete, we are buying the ammunition for them to be competant DHS Officers. I'm sure we would all like to be Bob Munden, but Mr. Munden didn't do it on my dime and you dont need that many rounds to do the training.
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We're not paying them to compete. We are paying to protect their life and the lives of others. Since they can't always space this training out over the course of a year (though many agencies do small refresher training in their local area), they have to fit a lot of instruction into a short amount of time. They are not learning to compete in a match, they are learning because there is a very real possibility they will be in a situation in which they come under fire.

our State and Local LEO's are far more likely by sheer numbers, area covered and statistics to encounter a need to fire a shot in defence than a Federal Officer.
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You are making several, often incorrect, assumptions about what kind of people are trained here. They are not just DHS but from a wide spectrum of federal employees, some of whom do encounter enemy fire. Some state and local police also have access to these training facilities as well.

What I will say with all honesty is that I have been a Small Arms Instructor and a Master Gunner.The only way to train is with discipline and a continuous thought process driected toward becomming better, if you require a thousand rounds of ammo per day per student, your system is broken and so are your students.
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If you can come up with a system that trains students as well as the current courses and will cost less money (ie less ammo used) and take the same time, I encourage you to shop this out to the government b/c contrary to popular belief, there is often strong pressure to cut costs. The current training method they use though is also effective and students passing the classes are well qualified.

Long story short, the DHS order does not constitute some sort of conspiracy with DHS preparing for civil war or something. It constitutes a normal government order for ammunition for training, carrying, and supplying numerous agencies with ammunition. Nothing sinister there.
 
Some DHS guys in the area train every week blasting away ammo on my buddies private property. I have asked him what they think and he thinks there cool and dont know whats going on. He only thinks there cool cause they bring the cool toys to his range.
 
Also, to the question of ammo use in "training days," the local department has a fifty-shot course that new officers train on, and often they run through the course ten to fifteen times per day during the academy, which amounts to over 500 rounds per officer per day.
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I'd seriously question that. I happen to be a firearms instructor, and even with only five or six officers on the range for a qual, it's rare for us to get to 350 rounds per officer (pistol). You gotta remember, depending on the courses we need to shoot, we may have to shoot shotgun and carbine too -- and not everyone quals the first or second time they shoot (I know y'all would find that very hard to believe) ...

Some DHS guys in the area train every week blasting away ammo on my buddies private property. I have asked him what they think and he thinks there cool and dont know whats going on. He only thinks there cool cause they bring the cool toys to his range
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So more anecdotal "evidence." "My buddy tells me ..." Have you been there, spoken with them, asked them who's paying for the ammo they're shooting?

This thread is gettin' a little silly. It started about LE facing ammo shortages, but has devolved into people gettin' their panties all a'twist about cops getting to shoot more than they can ...
 
Old Dog said:
I'd seriously question that. I happen to be a firearms instructor, and even with only five or six officers on the range for a qual, it's rare for us to get to 350 rounds per officer (pistol). You gotta remember, depending on the courses we need to shoot, we may have to shoot shotgun and carbine too -- and not everyone quals the first or second time they shoot (I know y'all would find that very hard to believe) ...

So more anecdotal "evidence." "My buddy tells me ..." Have you been there, spoken with them, asked them who's paying for the ammo they're shooting?

This thread is gettin' a little silly. It started about LE facing ammo shortages, but has devolved into people gettin' their panties all a'twist about cops getting to shoot more than they can ...
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We both work for LE and yes they shoot every week about..Hell they even use smoke on the range. They shoot there DHS ammo...Including .308 out to 850yds. The guy that owns the land is a good man, he is a Pastor of a church and one of the DHS guys goes to it. He was invited to shoot there then it turned out he liked it so much they been shooting there for the last couple years. Said its the best place in the area. A local county sheriffs office sniper visits every blue moon to try out his stuff.
 
..... maybe a little off-thread here, but what about the 2700 armored vehicles HS has ordered? Saw that on CNN news, guess some senator has , or wants to question Napoletano about that too ! Getting ready for a takeover?
 
788Ham said:
..... maybe a little off-thread here, but what about the 2700 armored vehicles HS has ordered? Saw that on CNN news, guess some senator has , or wants to question Napoletano about that too ! Getting ready for a takeover?
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The gov said it's for HIGH RISK warrants... LOL right..
 
Mr TroyR responds
And don't use the word anecdotal "evidence." Because it's the same back to ya. I also do CHL classes and I am a firearms instructer. Like you said depends on the scenarios you are shooting is how much could be used. Come to my class and I will have you wearing the barrel out in 10 hours of hard core training. You will need more than 500rds if your hardcore. My basic class for noobs is 200rds min. In 3-4 hours.
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Dude -- we were talking about law enforcement qualification -- NOT CHL classes, or commercial training classes. 10 hour classes of "hardcore" training? What, are you talking about training SRT? I'm talking about reg'lar line officers. Gosh, if you indeed work for a government, I wanna work where you're at ... 'cause that's the exception and not the rule these days. Having a little trouble following your remarks, because first you talk about some "DHS guys" doing a lot of blasting at your buddy's private range (never mentioned if you ascertained just WHO or WHAT agency paid for all that ammo), then you tell us you also work in law enforcement ...
 
Old Dog said:
Mr TroyR responds
Dude -- we were talking about law enforcement qualification -- NOT CHL classes, or commercial training classes. 10 hour classes of "hardcore" training? What, are you talking about training SRT? I'm talking about reg'lar line officers. Gosh, if you indeed work for a government, I wanna work where you're at ... 'cause that's the exception and not the rule these days. Having a little trouble following your remarks, because first you talk about some "DHS guys" doing a lot of blasting at your buddy's private range (never mentioned if you ascertained just WHO or WHAT agency paid for all that ammo), then you tell us you also work in law enforcement ...
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Yeah you sure got twisted up..
 
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