The Lone Haranguer
Member
Improper polishing that results in shapes or angles being changed is impossible to reverse - you can't put metal back. If done to a 1911, this is the frame we are talking about.
Polishing the feed ramp
- Thread starter dondavis3
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1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Yep.
One argument that I hear a lot is:
"But I'm only going to polish lightly."
The thing about a Dremel is that 30,000 rpms with a buffing head generates a lot of heat in an unbelieveably short time. Heat anneals steel. Soft steel is easier to cut...so the "mild" abrasive is effectively more aggressive than it would seem...and the thin, softened layer of steel is removed. Ya know how quickly a buffing head turns black? Heeeere's yer sign.
A little more "light" polishing starts the process all over again, and the first thing our boy knows is that the top corner of the feed ramp starts to look a little less sharply defined than it did. What's happened is that the critical feed ramp angle has now changed, and it doesn't take a lot for the gun to become non-functional. The angle spec is plus a half-degee and minus zip.
On the mechanical end of the malfuction, the reduced acuteness of the angle means that the bullet nose is guided straight into the barrel ramp instead of skidding across the top corner. When the barrel is pushed forward, it also moves up. When it moves up too early, the rear corners of the slide's lugs crash into the front corners of the barrel's lugs...and the result is a 3-Point Jam.
Now, if our genius is sharp enough to figure out what went wrong...the next step is to cut the barrel ramp down until the bullet nose doesn't hit it and push the barrel forward. He very often has to overdo it, depending on how much he damaged the feed ramp...and now the gun will feed like green grease thru a sick goose...but he notices that he cases are starting to look a little...odd. The bulging that results from destroying the head support can be dangerous, because if a case blows, it's going to blow down into the magazine. If the hot gasses and shards of brass causes 2 or 3 of the rounds to detonate...which can happen....it can get pretty ugly.
Well in my case I polished and reshaped the feed ramp a little bit on a FEG PA-63, because the gun simply WOULD NOT feed hollow-point ammo.
After the dremel work, I have had zero feeding problems. I didn't change the barrel ramp at all.
Flame if you want, but my Dremel has been an extremely valuable tool for myriad different projects.
After the dremel work, I have had zero feeding problems. I didn't change the barrel ramp at all.
Flame if you want, but my Dremel has been an extremely valuable tool for myriad different projects.
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1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
No rants and no flames, Hellbore. Just makin' a few observations based on what I've seen in the last 30 years since this "Ramp and Throat" job thing became all the the rage.
Some people get away with it. Most don't. Maybe you should play the lottery.
Some people get away with it. Most don't. Maybe you should play the lottery.
Well if it's any consolation, my Dremel DOES have a variable speed, and I haven't polished the feed ramp on any of my other guns 
Just the gun that wouldn't feed... The other guns worked already so I didn't mess with them. I guess it's good that I left 'em alone. To be honest, I knew I was taking a risk modifying the feed ramp, but frankly I didn't really care. The gun was so cheap and I disliked it so much initially that I really wouldn't have cared if it had broken. Whether by luck or by skill, it works well and feeds reliably now
The Feg though, stock, would not feed and the gun would often just jam with the nose of the bullet jammed tight against the feed ramp. How would one fix this problem if not by changing the feed ramp? Anybody fixed this problem on a FEG PA-63, is there a better fix?
My Dad's Feg still has feeding problems with some ammo and I would like to know if there's a better fix, I have not done anything to his gun yet.
I should also mention that the gun in question (Feg PA-63) is not a locked-breech auto like the 1911 you are describing, it is a fixed-barrel blowback, so some of the pitfalls you describe may not apply to this gun and in my opinion, the geometry of the interaction between the bullet and feed ramp is FAR simpler to figure out, there's just less going on.
Don't tell my dad, because the gun was a gift from him, but I still don't like this gun very much, even though it feeds and shoots reliably now... Call me a wimp, but I'm a lot happier with my locked-breech guns and their nicer recoil impulse. The Feg is just downright painful to shoot, it's the only gun I own that I will not shoot without wearing gloves. It's even worse than my Kel-tec P-11 if you can believe it.
Just the gun that wouldn't feed... The other guns worked already so I didn't mess with them. I guess it's good that I left 'em alone. To be honest, I knew I was taking a risk modifying the feed ramp, but frankly I didn't really care. The gun was so cheap and I disliked it so much initially that I really wouldn't have cared if it had broken. Whether by luck or by skill, it works well and feeds reliably now
The Feg though, stock, would not feed and the gun would often just jam with the nose of the bullet jammed tight against the feed ramp. How would one fix this problem if not by changing the feed ramp? Anybody fixed this problem on a FEG PA-63, is there a better fix?
My Dad's Feg still has feeding problems with some ammo and I would like to know if there's a better fix, I have not done anything to his gun yet.
I should also mention that the gun in question (Feg PA-63) is not a locked-breech auto like the 1911 you are describing, it is a fixed-barrel blowback, so some of the pitfalls you describe may not apply to this gun and in my opinion, the geometry of the interaction between the bullet and feed ramp is FAR simpler to figure out, there's just less going on.
Don't tell my dad, because the gun was a gift from him, but I still don't like this gun very much, even though it feeds and shoots reliably now... Call me a wimp, but I'm a lot happier with my locked-breech guns and their nicer recoil impulse. The Feg is just downright painful to shoot, it's the only gun I own that I will not shoot without wearing gloves. It's even worse than my Kel-tec P-11 if you can believe it.
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1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Here's a typical Dremel Dan Double Throwdown Ramp'n'Throat job that illustrates the whole enchilada. This gun probably wouldn't feed hardball after the frame work, so our boy Dan took it to Bubba "The Throat" Bozo to get it runnin'. Problem is that if the headspace is a bit too far toward the big end...case head support has gone into the red zone.
This is actually prettier work than most I've seen, which indicates that Dan does have a knack for it...but the top corner of the feed ramp is seriously rolled, and the critical angle no longer exists.
It doesn't take anything this radical to bring it to a screechin' halt. I recently worked on a Combat Commander that had been polished so lightly, that I had to hold the ramp under a strong light and turn it back and forth before I could see the damage. The gun wouldn't make it through a magazine full of hardball. Fortunately, Danny quit before he was in a deep hole, and traded the gun. The guy who wound up with it brought it to me.
I was able to fix it...but the one pictured above will require an end mill and a ramp insert...and a new barrel...to set it right.
It's very easy to roll that corner using a Dremel and a buffing head, and difficult not to...and just a few passes is all it takes. If the Dremel is spinning at half-speed, it'll just take twice as long to screw things up. If the feed ramp angle is within spec, no mirror polishing is needed as long as it's smooth and free from deep machining marks.
Look...and learn.
This is actually prettier work than most I've seen, which indicates that Dan does have a knack for it...but the top corner of the feed ramp is seriously rolled, and the critical angle no longer exists.
It doesn't take anything this radical to bring it to a screechin' halt. I recently worked on a Combat Commander that had been polished so lightly, that I had to hold the ramp under a strong light and turn it back and forth before I could see the damage. The gun wouldn't make it through a magazine full of hardball. Fortunately, Danny quit before he was in a deep hole, and traded the gun. The guy who wound up with it brought it to me.
I was able to fix it...but the one pictured above will require an end mill and a ramp insert...and a new barrel...to set it right.
It's very easy to roll that corner using a Dremel and a buffing head, and difficult not to...and just a few passes is all it takes. If the Dremel is spinning at half-speed, it'll just take twice as long to screw things up. If the feed ramp angle is within spec, no mirror polishing is needed as long as it's smooth and free from deep machining marks.
Look...and learn.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Here is a proper feed ramp. Assuming that the angle is correct, along with the barrel ramp angle...and assuming that the 32nd inch step between the two is there...this gun should feed any reasonable bullet shape...no further work needed.
Note that the top corner is clean and well-defined, and ramp itself is smooth, but not mirror polished.
Note that the top corner is clean and well-defined, and ramp itself is smooth, but not mirror polished.
dondavis3
Member
Thanks to everyone for your help.
Well this was a interesting post for me.
I asked the same question on 4 different gun sites to gather as much info as I could.
I got every answer under the sun - here are a few :
If you have to ask how, you are not qualified.
It's easy anybody can do it .
Use a Dremel on low speed.
Don't let a Dremel in the same room with a gun.
Dremel tools are the reason I don't buy used guns.
Use a Dremel with the felt pad and the red polish (jewelers).
So, my 4 1/2 inch angle grinder.... too much or just right?
Use car polish.
Use toothpaste and a q-tip.
If it aint broke, don't fix it.
It's a 20 minute job.
It will take a long time if done right.
Use wet and dry 600 or 1000 wet dry paper on a dowel.
Use Fitz Polish or Mother's Mag Wheel Polish or use a little Clenzoil
And on and on.
Well this was a interesting post for me.
I asked the same question on 4 different gun sites to gather as much info as I could.
I got every answer under the sun
- here are a few :If you have to ask how, you are not qualified.
It's easy anybody can do it .
Use a Dremel on low speed.
Don't let a Dremel in the same room with a gun.
Dremel tools are the reason I don't buy used guns.
Use a Dremel with the felt pad and the red polish (jewelers).
So, my 4 1/2 inch angle grinder.... too much or just right?
Use car polish.
Use toothpaste and a q-tip.
If it aint broke, don't fix it.
It's a 20 minute job.
It will take a long time if done right.
Use wet and dry 600 or 1000 wet dry paper on a dowel.
Use Fitz Polish or Mother's Mag Wheel Polish or use a little Clenzoil
And on and on.
Mizar
Member
I have dealed with lots of pistols, prodused during the WW2 (not 1911's) - almost all of them had very rough feed ramps and internals, but guess what - none of them was jamming because of the crude feed ramp. If the gun jamed the problem was always related to something else.
One of my friends once polished the sear nose and the striker hook of Glock 19 with dremel... For about 2 minutes with felt wheel. The result was - pull the trigger - gun will fire, release the trigger - gun fires again... He was able to put a visible radius on both parts. But then again he believes that polishing does not remove metal - it only "smears" the surface...
Boris
P.S. If one does not understand completely and truly how a particular pistol operates, then how can he expect, that what he is doing will have the exact result he is hoping for !?!
One of my friends once polished the sear nose and the striker hook of Glock 19 with dremel... For about 2 minutes with felt wheel. The result was - pull the trigger - gun will fire, release the trigger - gun fires again... He was able to put a visible radius on both parts. But then again he believes that polishing does not remove metal - it only "smears" the surface...
Boris
P.S. If one does not understand completely and truly how a particular pistol operates, then how can he expect, that what he is doing will have the exact result he is hoping for !?!
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