Poll- Clint or Elmer

[dickydalton]

I bought my first Model 29 no dash in 1974. I didn't shoot another 357 Mag for over 30 years. Now I'm back to shooting both but the 44 Magnum is tops on my list.

 

[Slamfire]

I remember the buzz at the time of the movie. Crime was out of control in the big cities, Liberals always providing excuses for the poor criminals,... well, that has not changed. But, you could not find a S&W 44 Mag till the 1980's, they were hard to find, such was the demand that the movie created. The non shooting public referred to all 44 Magnums as "Dirty Harry Guns".

I think, what you see, is how Corporations are not really into innovation. You allow monopolies, lack of competition, which we do, Corporations want same old, same old, and they want a monopoly. A very good example was the Barbie versus Bratz dolls. The inventor of the Bratz dolls had to leave Mattel to create the brand, (Mattel was only interested in Barbie) which when Bratz proved successful, Mattell tried to sue the Bratz dolls out of existence.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...ter-Barbie-owner-fails-to-kill-franchise.html

http://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2067001,00.html

So Elmer Keith comes up with a good idea, he can't prove future demand, he can't prove future profits, and the gun companies at the time, well, I am surprised S&W actually did something. Ruger was lean and mean and they jumped on the idea and actually beat S&W to the market.

Now, when did Colt introduce a 44 Magnum? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Anaconda And how are they doing? Guess they lost their Government M16 monopoly, OOPS

 

[BobWright]

I'm going to be an iconoclast and say neither. I've never owned a .44 Magnum, and always preferred a .45 Colt -- which in a Ruger Blackhawk will duplicate the .44 Mag.

I've often wondered what would have happened if, instead of having his Number 5 made on a Colt SA platform in .44 Special, Keith had simply hot-rodded a Colt New Service or Shooting Master.

That is sort of what I did back around 1954 or so with this New Service. Originally a .455, rebored to .45 Colt, then rebuild to .44 Special. Added S&W rear sight, Micro front, and home made walnut grips.




But the Single Action Army was cheap, plentiful, and had lots of screws holding parts on that begged to have custom touches added. Plus the solid frame of a Single Action lending that extra bit of strength. The built-up design of a Single Action just begs for customizing!


Bob Wright

 

[JT-AR-MG42]

Elmer Kieth worked it up and......... He did all the work and deserves all the credit.

Not so fast Frank!

Yes Elmer got all the credit, but he did not do all the work.
And his work was with .44 Special cases.

John Lachuck was making his own wildcat .44s for use in Colt Frontiers as early as 1950 with
.405 Winchester cases shortened ( to the exact length that Remington chose 6 years later for the .44 Magnum), reamed and lathe turned.
Capacity (heavier case walls and web) was slightly under the later factory .44, but John's load for this wildcat was .22.5 grs. of 2400
with the 240 gr. Thompson gas check.

John was a nationally known gun writer (also known as the .22 guru of his time) as well, and
there can be no doubt his contributions figured into both Remington's and Elmer's designs.

JT

 

[.308 Norma]

I voted "both" because I couldn't vote "neither." What brought me to the .44 Magnum was when I watched my wife's .357 fail to tip over 3, dead center hit 200-meter rams in a silhouette match. She never lost another hit ram after she traded-up to a Ruger, Super Silhouette .44 Magnum - no matter where she hit them.
She did loose one 100-meter pig at a match in Boise once. But many old-time silhouette shooters around here remember the "Boise Pigs." One time I even lost a "Boise Pig" to a center hit with my 7mm IHMSA.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

That is sort of what I did back around 1954 or so with this New Service. Originally a .455, rebored to .45 Colt, then rebuild to .44 Special. Added S&W rear sight, Micro front, and home made walnut grips.

View attachment 778457


But the Single Action Army was cheap, plentiful, and had lots of screws holding parts on that begged to have custom touches added. Plus the solid frame of a Single Action lending that extra bit of strength. The built-up design of a Single Action just begs for customizing!


Bob Wright

I have a very similar gun -- made in 1906, and reblued (so not a collector's item) I chopped the barrel to 5 1/2 inches, mounted adjustable sights and Herrett Shooting Master grips. The New Service is one hell of a strong revolver, and by 1903 Colt was heat treating the cylinders. Just out of respect to it's age, I hold my loads to around 19,000 psi, but that gives me enough power to shoot through deer.

 

[bikerdoc]

I was already an adult when that movie came out, so Elmer.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Never owned a 44 mag. Owned a few 44 specials though. That seems to be what most people shoot in their 44 mags.

I didn't participate in the poll. I'm a huge Clint fan though but cops don't really carry 44 mags. I knew that when I saw the first Dirty Harry movie.

Elmer was a legend, so was Jack O'Conner. I read everything Jack wrote but never owned a 270. Legends in their own minds. That was magazines and print after WW2. They were kings and It sold copy. People couldn't get enough of that stuff.

Elmer or Jack would just be another Larry Vickers these days. We all know who he is, right?

 

[Stumper]

John Lachuck and Pop Eimer ;^). It is all a package. All the contributors to the .44 mag played a significant role.......But Elmer Keith was the champion who wouldn't stop writing , promoting and bending ears......and he got the .44mag instead of the heavy loaded .44 special he asked for.

 

[BullRunBear]

I voted both. I had read of Elmer's advocacy which whetted my interest. But Clint's movie propelled the cartridge and the Model 29 to huge public attention. Both influenced my decision to get one.

Jeff

 

[silicosys4]

I've never seen a single Dirty Harry film, either the original or its sequels.
I read "Hell, I was there" by Elmer Keith, that did more to enthuse me about the .44 special and magnum than any film ever did.

 

[MaxP]

I've never seen a single Dirty Harry film, either the original or its sequels.
I read "Hell, I was there" by Elmer Keith, that did more to enthuse me about the .44 special and magnum than any film ever did.

Yes, but you should still see "Dirty Harry!"

 

[Hangingrock]

Not so fast Frank!

Yes Elmer got all the credit, but he did not do all the work.
And his work was with .44 Special cases.

John Lachuck was making his own wildcat .44s for use in Colt Frontiers as early as 1950 with
.405 Winchester cases shortened ( to the exact length that Remington chose 6 years later for the .44 Magnum), reamed and lathe turned.
Capacity (heavier case walls and web) was slightly under the later factory .44, but John's load for this wildcat was .22.5 grs. of 2400
with the 240 gr. Thompson gas check.

John was a nationally known gun writer (also known as the .22 guru of his time) as well, and
there can be no doubt his contributions figured into both Remington's and Elmer's designs.

JT

Finally someone knows what they are talking/writing about!

 

[JeffG]

Actually, Bill Jordan's writings were as interesting as Elmer Keith.

 

[cp1969]

Actually, Bill Jordan's writings were as interesting as Elmer Keith.

So was Jack O'Connor. But neither of these guys had as much experience, intuition and savvy about all three (handguns, rifles and shotguns) as Elmer.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

"... being this is the .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and will blow your head clean off, you have to ask yourself, do you feel lucky? Well do you punk?"

Those words did more for the popularity of the 44 Magnum than Keith ever could. We all know S&W couldn't keep up with demand after that movie and how QC suffered as a result.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Actually, I think Keith killing a deer at 600 yards with a .44 Mag had a lot to do with the .44 Mag's popularity.

 

[Charliefrank]

Elmer did the real work. He is the correct answer. But in all honesty I picked both. I saw that movie when it came out in the theater. You could not find a model 29 to save your life. S&W couldn't produce them fast enough. So Clint introduced it to the masses.

 

[CraigC]

Keith did a lot but he's far from the only one. Somehow he gets all the credit but in truth, he wasn't even included in the actual development of the .44Mag.

 

[doubleh]

Elmer dreamed it up, Clint just did a fantastic advertising job for it. I didn't buy mine because of the movie.

 

[cp1969]

Keith did a lot but he's far from the only one. Somehow he gets all the credit but in truth, he wasn't even included in the actual development of the .44Mag.

Then who was involved in the actual development of the .44 Mag?

 

[Varminterror]

Then who was involved in the actual development of the .44 Mag?

Keith never had a .44mag case in his hand until it was ready for market. Lachuck and Keith created wildcat cartridges, one a homemade 44mag, the other a 44spcl+p, respectively, which demonstrated potential for a commercial cartridge to Remington and S&W.

But despite lore and legend, and common misconception propagated online and in print articles, it was really the house engineers at Remington who “actually developed” the .44 Remington Magnum, in congress with the house engineers at S&W to produce the firing platform - aka, the 29. Bill Ruger then quickly followed suit with his Blackhawk (whose development has it’s own surrounding mystic lore).

Guys were doing high velocity 44’s. Lachuck was closer to the 44mag than Keith was - actually using an over length case - but Keith had the ears of the manufacturers. Without his advocacy, a hype man himself (clearly), the 44RM never would have been pushed through, but when it comes to the “actual development,” his involvement was slim to none.

 

[CraigC]

^^^ Bingo!

 

[If1HitU]

I voted but I just like .44 spl. and Mag.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

But despite lore and legend, and common misconception propagated online and in print articles, it was really the house engineers at Remington who “actually developed” the .44 Remington Magnum, in congress with the house engineers at S&W to produce the firing platform - aka, the 29.

True. In fact Keith (who was one of the "Boomers" for the development of the new .44) considered the .44 Mag somewhat overpowered.