Poll: Which 9mm Makarov? Bulgarian Makarov or CZ-82?

[RockyMtnTactical]

I own both and write about some of the pros and cons of both in my blog.

http://www.minutemanreview.com/2008/08/makarov-affordable-reliable-concealable.html

http://www.minutemanreview.com/2009/05/cz-82-pistol-review.html

I like them both. The Mak is slimmer and has less parts. I think it may have an edge in reliability.

The CZ-82 is a much more lefty friendly gun, has better ergos and a better feel to it. Sights are much better and it holds more rounds.

Both are excellent for CCW.

I think the CZ gets the nod IMO, but it's closer than this poll shows.

 

[Girodin]

Actual makarovs run about $230 these days, but I challenge you to find me a gun even half as tough for $230. For the person on a very tight budget, who can probably only afford one gun for a long time, and wants something they can both carry and use for HD,

I bought a used 2nd gen G17 for $240, I probably could have talked him down ten dollars but I didn't feel the need to try.

I bought a Steyr M9 for $240 as well.

Both are a better fighting guns than a Mak or CZ-82 IMHO.

That said I really like my CZ-82 and I think, for the $165 or so + shipping and transfer (probably $30) I paid for it, it is a pretty good gun and a great value. I have it and like it and it certainly could be used for self defense. That said, it is fair to note that it is bigger and heavier than my G26 has more felt recoil than the 26 and shoots an inferior round. If I had to have a primary defensive gun and I simply couldn't wait to shop around for a deal and couldn't possibly spend more than I would not feel bad about having a CZ-82 or a Mak (preference to the CZ). That said I would rather have any number of guns that can be had for right around $400 or less for a CCW and or general SD piece.

You can get a 9x19 about the same size, why bother with a handgun in 9x18 caliber.

For me, I like owning them and shooting them. I need no more reason than that.

 

[Girodin]

I also wanted to say it is a shame there are not any really good thin grips for the CZ82. I pair of durable (not prone to cracking) truly thin grips would really make it a much better sized gun.

 

[toivo]

CZ82 because except for the barrel it is probably same gun as CZ83. Matter of fact doesn't J&G Sales have 2nd-hand CZ83s in 9mm Browning for about $20 more then CZ82?

Yes, they do. As a matter of fact, I've got one on the way to my FFL. They don't have the polygonal rifling, but except for that and the chambering, they are the same gun. (These are milsurp 83's, so they have the rounded trigger guard like the 82.) I really like the layout and handling of this pistol, so my thinking is that if the 9x18 ammo supply ever dries up, I'll still have one in a readily-available caliber. Unless another .380 shortage hits...

I also wanted to say it is a shame there are not any really good thin grips for the CZ82. I pair of durable (not prone to cracking) truly thin grips would really make it a much better sized gun.

The stock grips are not all that fat -- it's just that the frame has to be wide enough to accomodate the double-stack mag. That's the big limitation. Still, I'm sure somebody could come up with some alumininum grips that would save a couple of millimeters. Every little bit helps. Maybe we could start harassing some grip makers?

 

[Dean1818]

Dean, I don't know what you're talking about.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/var9x18mm.html


Notice that the cheapo Silver Bear was the only one to provide expansion AND penetration.

And as far as the OP goes, if you're only going to have one gun in 9x18mak, the CZ82 is probably the best way to go.
For me, the 82 fits my hand a LOT better than the original Makarov-pattern pistols, and the added capacity, button mag release, and the C&L carry option make it the winner. In the end I'm sure I'll end up wit a Mak of some kind, I do hate to only have one gun in a given chambering. But for now that 82 is a nice little weapon that I can't seem to make malfunction with Silver Bear or even cheaper Brown Bear.

Dont get me wrong, I LIKE the CZ82, excellent trigger, solid gun, very accurate.......just not enough to put my life on the line with a sub par round

The data you give shows very poor penetration numbers (Hornady)
Its HALF the penetration numbers of most of the tested 9mm rounds

I have seen at least one test where the heaveier silver bear had better
penetration but the bullet failed to expand

All in all........ for personal defense, IMHO only........ the MAK round is an iffy performer

There are just too many options in inexpensive 9mm pistols to ignore

Keltek PF9
Kahr CM9
Kahr CW9
Ruger LC9

SW trade-ins

many more

All can be had for at or under $400

If you focus on used you can get much better prices

 

[wojownik]

Get em both. They're addictive.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

I bought a used 2nd gen G17 for $240, I probably could have talked him down ten dollars but I didn't feel the need to try.

That is an especially uncommon deal. Sure, someone the other day I read about online said he got a used Springfield GI for $175. These deals don't come along very often.

If I could find Glock 17's for less than $300, I would buy them all day long, but there is a good reason you dont find that very often...

That doesn't mean that a Makarov for $250 is a bad buy. I think it is a good deal. Especially when you consider that the Makarov, although not as good as the Glock 17 in many ways, is better in a few others. Particularly concealment. The Makarov is a much better CCW gun. I've never even tried to CCW with my Glock 17.

Keltek PF9
Kahr CM9
Kahr CW9
Ruger LC9

Maybe the Mak round is lacking in comparison to those guns, but one thing it is not lacking in comparison to those is RELIABILITY of the Mak and CZ compared to those. The Ruger is the only one I could think might have a chance to be as good as the Mak/CZ in and that is because I don't have enough experience with it yet... I'd rather hit with a 9x18 than miss or have a malf with something else in 9x19.

 

[jim920]

I have both and chose the CZ

 

[harmon rabb]

I'd rather hit with a 9x18 than miss or have a malf with something else in 9x19.

This is the exact reason I carried my cz-82 for quite a while. I'm pretty good with that gun. I wouldn't want to be the dip**** who messes with me while I'm armed with a cz-82, that's for sure.

Sure, since I got my EMP, the cz-82 has been retired from carry duty, but you could could buy 6 cz-82's for the price of one EMP.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

I just bought an EMP too.

 

[gbelleh]

My PF-9 and Kahr PM9 have been just as reliable as my Maks (all 100%). I would, and do, trust all of them with CCW duty.

I would already have a CZ-82, but I can't seem to find one with an original finish that is acceptable to me. Anyone know where to get a cherry picked, truly excellent condition, original CZ-82?

 

[Shadow 7D]

Call Todd, he hand picks from importers and only has a few usually, but the are all LNIB and personally checked by him, and yes you pay for it, but you get what you pay for.


http://www.familyfirearmsandfinishes.com/index.html
http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewforum.php?f=88&sid=1f42d77c97ecad23e02758a50dbd6712

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

What was Kel-tec's claim? Their guns are only made to run how many rounds?

I have a P32 for pocket carry and it's a decent gun, but I haven't heard much good about the PF-9's and when you consider that KT made them to only last a little while, I think you get a much higher quality gun that was made to last in a Mak/CZ than you do in a KT.

Kahr's don't impress me either. Never seen one that was very reliable and I have seen/shot quite a few including a K9 that I owned.

 

[gbelleh]

Thanks! I don't mind paying extra for unissued condition. I just can't bring myself to buy the beat-up, chipped and flaking CZ82s I always see at gun shows.

 

[Girodin]

I'd rather hit with a 9x18 than miss or have a malf with something else in 9x19.

Sure me too, but is there some reason you cannot hit with a 9x19. I have a number of 9x19s that are as reliable as my 9x18s.

 

[Snowdog]

Both my CZ-82 and K9 have the same performance regarding reliability:100%. The only difference is that while my CZ-82 has had around 500 rounds through it (from me) so far, the K9 has had several time that, including +P and +P+.

The Kahr K9 I've been carrying for the past 13 years and fired several thousands of round through has never malfunction. The only replacement part was a new spring in 2002 or there abouts and only because the manufacturer recommended a new spring after 3000 rounds.
Only because it's been so perfectly reliable is the reason I'm not carrying it as much as I used to... because my wife keeps it with her while I'm at work to protect herself and our child.

I don't know if the Kahr has gone downhill since I bought mine in '96-'97, but mine is one truly remarkable (and very well constructed) pistol.

 

[Dean1818]

That is an especially uncommon deal. Sure, someone the other day I read about online said he got a used Springfield GI for $175. These deals don't come along very often.

If I could find Glock 17's for less than $300, I would buy them all day long, but there is a good reason you dont find that very often...

That doesn't mean that a Makarov for $250 is a bad buy. I think it is a good deal. Especially when you consider that the Makarov, although not as good as the Glock 17 in many ways, is better in a few others. Particularly concealment. The Makarov is a much better CCW gun. I've never even tried to CCW with my Glock 17.



Maybe the Mak round is lacking in comparison to those guns, but one thing it is not lacking in comparison to those is RELIABILITY of the Mak and CZ compared to those. The Ruger is the only one I could think might have a chance to be as good as the Mak/CZ in and that is because I don't have enough experience with it yet... I'd rather hit with a 9x18 than miss or have a malf with something else in 9x19.

Once you get the kahr through the breakin....... they are extremely reliable

I havent had a single fte or ftf out of mine.


The keltek is also a sturdy little pistol as well. (i have friends that have them and love them)

Do what you want.

For a carry weapon, for me, the 9mm is the absolute minimum....... many actually call that round a "marginal" round.

For cheap plinking..... the CZ82 is an awesome pistol

i just think folks should be aware that they may be trusting in a JHP that isnt reliable, a round that may very well act like a FMJ on contact.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

Sure me too, but is there some reason you cannot hit with a 9x19. I have a number of 9x19s that are as reliable as my 9x18s.

As do I, though none of those 9x19's are as concealable...

Once you get the kahr through the breakin....... they are extremely reliable

YMMV but I have had enough experience with them to think otherwise.

i just think folks should be aware that they may be trusting in a JHP that isnt reliable, a round that may very well act like a FMJ on contac

I wish that were the problem with 9X18 JHP's. Unfortunately, in my experience it is just the opposite. Not enough penetration, which is way worse than too much penetration and no expansion. The only exception is the Silver Bear stuff.

 

[Snowdog]

When carrying my P64, I carry Silver Bear 94gr JHPs. They do not expand "reliably" (if at all), unlike the 115gr and 120gr Silver Bear of yesterday that expanded wonderfully.

However, I see the current 94gr Silver Bear JHP as more of a truncated FMJ that both cuts nice clean holes in paper and will penetrate nearly as well as FMJ, all while costing barely more than the cheapest FMJ available.



The half expanded JHP in the center was fired into bare plumber's putty. If a JHP won't expand (or over-expand/fragment) in bare plumber's putty, you can bet it won't have a chance of expanding in the real world.
The plugged/unexpanded JHPs were from the same puddy after a single layer of denim.

 

[Girodin]

As do I, though none of those 9x19's are as concealable...

If we are talking about the CZ-82 there are a number of 9mms that are.

If we are talking a makarov:

Its dimensions are as follows:

Weight: 26 oz
Length: 6.34"
Barrel: length 3.83"
Width: 1.16"
Height: 4.8"

Kahr P9

Weight: 16.9 0z
Length: 5.8"
Barrel length: 3.6"
Width: .90"
Height: 4.5"


The 9x18 guns are not more concealable than very viable 9x19 options. If I understand correctly, your experience with a single sample of a kahr weapon left you disappointed. Aside from the fact that one is not a good sample size to extrapolate from there are other 9x19s that are right about the same size.

Honestly aside from money I don't see a real compelling reason to carry anything chambered in 9x18. I'm not saying that can't be used, they can. More just that they are not my personal first choice guns.

 

[harmon rabb]

Honestly aside from money I don't see a real compelling reason to carry anything chambered in 9x18. I'm not saying that can't be used, they can. More just that they are not my personal first choice guns.

the only reason i can give you other than money is shootability, and this only really applies to the cz-82. i've fired pm9's and pm40's. i own a g27. i am much, much better with a cz-82. THAT is the reason i used to carry my cz-82 a lot. a hit with a 9x18 > a miss with a 9mm or a 40.

well, i guess i have another reason -- reliability. there aren't many guns out there that could be a worthy challenger to a makarov (actual makarov) in a reliability test.

otherwise, yeah, you're right. i have only carried a 9x18 gun a couple times since getting my springfield EMP. 10 rounds of 9mm+p with an excellent trigger and good ergonomics FTW.

 

[Girodin]

the only reason i can give you other than money is shootability, and this only really applies to the cz-82.

Your comparisons are not to the type of guns I referred to. You are comparing to a .40 and a much smaller gun. I own a CZ82. While I really like it, I do not find that for me it has any edge on either the G26 which is slightly smaller and lighter or the P9 which is notably smaller. In fact I personally find the G26 to be superior to the CZ in what I would call shootability.

As to reliability, the CZ and Mak are no doubt very reliable guns. That said my G26 has done thousands and thousands of rounds with only one malfunction from a mag I didn't seat fully. Thus, I don't find reliability to be a compelling reason to turn to a gun that I personally find to be inferior in the other ways I find important.

Someone else might find things to be different for them but for me as much as I like my 9x18s there is just no reason for me to carry them.

 

[jim3408]

CZ82

Hello all....new guy here.

I have both...and keep current with both. I really would not get rid of either one, because, for some reason, I have a great regard for these little 9x18's.

I've been asked this question several times, and always have to pause before I answer, but to my mind, I would take the CZ82 if I "had" to make a choice.

It seems to fit my hand better, appears to be more balanced, I shoot a little better with it...and it carries a few more "pops" than the Makarov.

I genuinely love them both...and have a general potpouri of handguns from Glocks, Colts, Smiths, and Berettas. You can't go wrong with either one, in my view.

 

[Spec ops Grunt]

A better comparison would be 9x18 to .380, not to 9mm luger.

 

[agony]

As much as I love the original Makarovs, the CZ-82 is so much more gun despite the flaky paint. Plus as a lefty, it's a no-brainer.