Poor man's PDW in .22 mag?

[cluttonfred]

I am sure I am not the first to think of this, but 5.7mm round of the FN P90, PS90 and Five-Seven is not that far off ballistically from the .22 magnum. If you buy the small-caliber PDW concept (a separate thread, please) then .22 magnum carbine might do the trick.

There have been some .22 mag rifles and carbines in semi-auto (Marlin, Ruger, etc.) but not many and not still available that I know of except for some very expensive ones. The Kel-Tec PMR-30 pistol with its 30 rounds of .22 mag is a reasonably priced alternative to the Five-Seven, but nothing comes to mind in terms of carbines, at least not available new.

Short of Kel-Tec coming out with a .22 mag version of the SU-22 or SUB-2000, or Hi Point adding a .22 mag carbine to their offering, I am stumped. Any ideas?

Cheers,

Matthew

 

[Justin]

Kel-Tec is coming out with a carbine version of the PMR-30.

 

[axxxel]

Assuming that we accept the small caliber PDW concept, does the .22 magnum fit the bill? Why not use a 9mm instead? The PDW rounds are supposedly capable of penetrating vests better than the pistol rounds they are replacing - is this true for the .22 mag?

Cool gun though.

 

[kwelz]

This is a common misconception about the 5.7 round.

The 5.7 out of a pistol has the same velocity as a .22 Mag out of a rifle.

This does not take into account bullet shape and terminal ballistics.

 

[Mp7]

a Tokarev carbine.

 

[otomik]

The PDW rounds are supposedly capable of penetrating vests better than the pistol rounds they are replacing - is this true for the .22 mag?

the SS190 load has a steel penetrator. most of the stuff out there for .22mag and 5.7mm is lead core which will easily deform on barriers. This is the RMR-30 photographed from Oleg Volk's visit to Kel-Tec in Florida.

Why not use a 9mm instead?

yes, why overspecialize? the russians developed a simple armor piercing load of 9mm Para by just using a light hardened bullet that goes very fast. 7N21

.22mag is just a non-starter for a defensive weapon because the primers are inherently less reliable. this is okay for a double action revolver which can just skip over a dud round and much less okay for an automatic.

some of the ideas seem to go way back in George Kellgren's career. Interdynamics MKR

a Tokarev carbine.

it really would be a heck of a lot simpler. Beretta could take their existing CX4 and adapt it right away.

 

[cluttonfred]

Thanks, I guess I'll just have to wait for the RMR-30. I will say that when I spoke about the .22 mag as a potential PDW, I wasn't really thinking of the proper military use of the term, but really the general purpose home defense and fun shooting carbine. I would really prefer something much less "black rifle" personally (a Ruger 10/22 in .22 mag would be just fine if reliable and affordable) but I wouldn't turn up my nose at the RMR-30.

 

[black_powder_Rob]

not sure what you would think, but how about a lever action rifle in 22 mag.? There is the henrey which does not have a high cap mag but still can pack a 12 round punch.

 

[bhk]

Doesn't Remington still make their 597 in .22 mag?

 

[happygeek]

I'm still lost as to the whole concept of PDWs; the assumption is that your behind the lines support troops are going to be attacked by enemies wearing level IIIA soft armor without plates and that a M4, bullpup type rifle, or a short barrel carbine with a folding stock is too bulky for these support troops and it's worth the extra logistical effort to keep 2 types of ammo and mags around (one type for the front line guys and another for the support guys)?

According to Wikipedia the PDW concept hasn't really caught on outside of specialized counter terrorism units replacing their submachine guns with PDWs.

 

[black_powder_Rob]

I think what the OP is going for is a civilian PDW (not something that has to puncture body armor) I think he is also looking for a rifle on the cheap that doesn't shoot a huge or expensive round. And I know that there are 9mm rifles out there but right now I think i can find 22 mag cheaper than 9mm.

I do agree though that m4's can take the place of most if not all military PDWs.

 

[cluttonfred]

Thanks, black powder Rob, you are right about the intent of my original post. I love lever guns, but that is going off in a different direction. Maybe the Henry and a Ruger Single-Six as the Luddite's alternative to an FN 5.7mm combo? ;-). Until I find that perfect carbine, I guess I'll have to make do with my current "PDW"--an original wood-and-blued-steel Marlin Papoose .22--for things that go bump in the night. Cheers, Matthew

 

[Z-Michigan]

Currently .22 WMR ammo seems to start at 18-20 cents a round and go up from there. You can also get 9mm Luger for about 20-24 cents/round, .40 S&W for 25-30 cents/round, .223 for about 30 cents/round and 7.62x39mm for about 20 cents/round. I don't see that .22 WMR is a cost saving option any more, especially when you consider that any semiauto chambered in it is likely to be less reliable than any of the centerfire calibers just mentioned.

 

[black_powder_Rob]

I recently got some 22mag rounds that were hollow point brass case for about .15 a round (after shipping). Order in bulk and it keeps the shipping down also. plus i have found that 22 mags are not that dirty of a round. and are sure a heck of a lot of fun to shoot.

 

[CraigC]

Not ideal but I really think you could do a lot worse as a defensive weapon.

Reliability? I've shot thousands and thousands of rimfire magnums over the years and can't ever remember a single misfire.