Was Johnson right... bring back the .22 Spitfire?

[cluttonfred]

I ran across some discussion of the .22 Spitfire/5.7mm Johnson, basically a .30 Carbine case necked down to take a .224 bullet.

When you look at the excessive blast and flash and wasted energy of the 5.56x45mm from a short barrel, and the questionable effectiveness of the 5.7x28mm in the FN P90 PDW, I wonder if Johnson was on to something?

For home defense, police and military PDW use, something like the .22 Spitfire seems right on the money. Call it the 5.7x33mm. It neatly splits the difference between the 5.56x45mm and 5.7x28mm in terms of bullet weight, velocity and energy, throwing a 50 gr (3.2 g) bullet at 2,700 ft/s (820 m/s) for 810 ft·lbf (1,100 J). So it's right on par with the .30 carbine but much flatter-shooting for greater effective range.

Personally, I'd love to see a new design for a cheap and rugged little carbine, something like a modernized and simplified M1 Carbine. If it sparked enough interest maybe it would not only keep interest in the .30 Carbine round alive but also revive the fortunes of the .22 Spitfire?

Cheers,

Matthew

 

[rondog]

Just what the world needs, yet another type of cartridge. Isn't there enough already?

 

[loadedround]

Wouldn't the 30 carbine round loaded with a SP bullet be sufficent for home defense as is? The M1/2 carbine worked very well for me in beautiful, downtown SE Asia for me back then.

 

[sansone]

I would neck it down to 6mm or 6.5

 

[rondog]

Wouldn't the 30 carbine round loaded with a SP bullet be sufficent for home defense as is?

This is what's under MY bed! Plainfield M1 carbine, with Remington 110gr. JSP's, an Ultimak rail, and a red-dot sight.

 

[LibShooter]

Personally, I'd love to see a new design for a cheap and rugged little carbine, something like a modernized and simplified M1 Carbine.

Rather than a brand new rifle and cartridge, how about a Mini-14 and a less hot HD/SD round?

I guess that wouldn't be cheap.

 

[Inebriated]

I've always thought it was a cool round, but I couldn't honestly walk into a store and as for a box of Johnsons without laughing profusely.

But seriously, I would be pretty interested in seeing how this would compare to the 5.7x28mm.

 

[cluttonfred]

I've always thought it was a cool round, but I couldn't honestly walk into a store and as for a box of Johnsons without laughing profusely.

But seriously, I would be pretty interested in seeing how this would compare to the 5.7x28mm.

If you follow the links in my initial post you'll see that the .22 Spitire provides about double the energy of the 5.7x28mm. Ballistics are almost exactly the same as .22 Hornet but in a rimless case well-suited to self-loading designs.

 

[M2 Carbine]

I've had one since the early 90's.
I had a original 5.7 Johnson that I lost in a fire in 1995. Now I have a rebarreled M1 Carbine. It's a simple barrel swap if you can find a barrel.

It's a hot little round, doing a measured 3,000 fps from the M1 Carbine.

I think the only reason the round never caught on is there was just no ammo available for it. And because the 30 Carbine was so popular.
There still is no ammo or brass for the round, so we owners have to form our own brass from 30 Carbine brass. A PITA to do.

It makes a very impressive full auto (M2).


This is the 5.7 Johnson (left) loaded with a 55 gr FMJBT (militaty) bullet, compared to the 5.7 FN. Loaded with the recommended 40 grain Hornet bullet the rounds are about the same length.
FN really just reinvented the wheel with the 5.7 FN because the Johnson is almost the same size and hotter with a 40 gr bullet.

 

[amd6547]

...Or, you could just get a Saiga 5.45. A 53gn bullet at 2900fps, with plenty of cheap surplus ammo.
I like the 30 carbine a lot, and my CMP Inland has been a favorite HD long arm.
But, the 5.45 Saiga is a very dependable weapon available at low cost. It has pretty much replaced my M1 carbine in the HD role.

 

[gripper]

I too,prefer the AK/AK74 platform....that said,here's a wildcard idea....a CONVERTIBLE M1 fathoms-.30 fathoms/5.7 x33....does the concept have merit?Can the original design me adapted? or would another platform work better?

 

[cluttonfred]

FN really just reinvented the wheel with the 5.7 FN because the Johnson is almost the same size and hotter with a 40 gr bullet.

Thanks, M2Carbine, I hadn't realized quite how close the two cartridges are in size. Here are some direct comparisons in terms of ballistics:

.22 Spitfire
Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy
40 gr (2.6 g) 2,850 ft/s (870 m/s) 720 ft·lbf (980 J)
40 gr (2.6 g) 3,000 ft/s (910 m/s) 795 ft·lbf (1,078 J)
50 gr (3.2 g) 2,700 ft/s (820 m/s) 810 ft·lbf (1,100 J)

5.7x28mm
Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy
23 gr (1.5 g) SS90 AP FMJ (prototype) 850 m/s (2,800 ft/s) 540 J (400 ft·lbf)
31 gr (2.0 g) SS190 AP FMJ 716 m/s (2,350 ft/s) 534 J (394 ft·lbf)
28 gr (1.8 g) SS195LF JHP 716 m/s (2,350 ft/s) 467 J (344 ft·lbf)

In fairness, the 5.7x28mm will shoot about 60 m/s (200 ft/s) faster from the longer barrel of the PS90 carbine than the numbers above from the short-barreled P90 PDW. Still, there is clearly a lot more oomph behind the .22 Spitfire.

 

[M2 Carbine]

The 55 gr JBT bullet is too long to stabilize in the M1 Carbine barrel. It would keyhole inside of about 20 yards.
Back when you could buy a box of 500 55 gr "military" bullets for about $17 I reloaded those bullets (pictured above) for full auto in my M2 Carbine.
Didn't matter that some of the bullets were hitting the target sideways.


I have to sit down and form some 5.7 Johnson brass. I haven't shot the gun in a long time.


When IAI was making the M1 Carbine in 5.7 I had hopes that a ammo manufacturer would load the round but it never happened.
I wanted to buy one of the IAI 5.7 Carbines but the company went under before I had a chance to get the gun.


I would like to see a handgun and rifles made for the round but that will never happen.

 

[telomerase]

Just what the world needs, yet another type of cartridge.

Soon the aliens' plan will be complete. All Earth firearms will be incompatible with each other and fire obsolete cartridges. We will be defenseless as they land and enslave us in giant iPod factories.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Soon the aliens' plan will be complete. All Earth firearms will be incompatible with each other and fire obsolete cartridges. We will be defenseless as they land and enslave us in giant iPod factories.

One of the funniest scenes in the movie "The Survivors" was when Robin Williams was in a gun fight with Jerry Reed and Robin Williams brought the wrong ammunition.