Potential .327 single shot rifle solution: Chaszel .410 to .327 adaptor.

[Ugly Sauce]

That's a neat SXS. I'm a combination gun fan, so yeah, I'd have shot in the "other" barrel. Would be interesting to see where a .410 slug hits from the left barrel. I hear the Brenekke slugs perform very well. Anyhow, with a gentle load in the .327 barrel, and a shot load in the left, that would be on effective small game survival rifle.

How much does that .410 SXS weigh?

 

[TTv2]

So I dove all the way in on this and I got some Truglo sights and a second .410 to .327 16 inch adaptor so I would have one for both barrels giving me the option to make this a double barrel. 327 SxS rifle.

I wrapped both barrels with 2 layers of teflon tape a half inch down from the top of the adaptor. Then I placed both adaptors in the the shot gun indexed with the rim recess to the top of the barrel so that it would be easy to extract the spent casings without the shotguns extractors getting in the way.

The Truglo sights mounted quickly and securely. Both stayed on through all the man handling and shooting without so much as a wobble.

I shot 4 rounds of .327 from the bench in a mount. Followed by 6 rounds of .327 off hand, and then 7 rounds of .32 h&r magnum I had with me.

What I discovered is that the right barrel is dead on, it hits right where I aim using the sights mounted to the rib. The left barrel hits to the right of the of where the right barrel hit by about 4-7" at 20 yards. This is hilarious to me, and I am not sure if I should try to correct for that by adjusting how the adaptor is indexed in the left barrel, adjust the windage of the the rear sight, or just load the left barrel with .410 shot of some kind and keep it as a combination gun.

No matter how this turns out, since at least one of the barrels is dead on I am very happy with the experiment. View attachment 1199475View attachment 1199476

This is the challenge with any double gun and a major reason I prefer O/U's to SxS's as I would rather compensate for elevation by using different weighted bullets then trying to hold X amount off target to the left or right. This is also why I like something like the .45-70 for this project as the cartridge is capable of shooting 250 to 500 grains of lead thus giving me a lot of potential options to find a combination that works in each barrel and shoots to the same POI.

Now, for your SxS hope is not yet lost as you can index the adapter and see what the result of that achieves. I would do a 90 degree turn in the left barrel and see what you get. It probably won't be perfect, but it could be improved to a point you can adjust the windage of the rear sight to a happy medium between both barrels.

Alternatively, you could figure out a way to mount a rear sight that flips up and down and is set for each barrel. IDK of any aftermarket sights that will fit to a shotgun that allow this.

Before you do any of that, shoot more groups in each barrel and find out what MOA you're dealing with, it's possible that one barrel is more accurate than the other and you might find a load that shoots better from one barrel.

Using adapters to convert a double shotgun into a double rifle involves a lot of work and at times sacrifice, but the end result is highly rewarding and worth the effort as you end up with an affordable rifle that can be returned to being a shotgun. What I would do right now if I were you is mark the insert/adapter in both barrels so you know which is for the right and left barrels and also note the index point. The right is easy as the cutout for the rim goes up, the left you will have to figure out thru index testing.

BTW, on indexing, as you change ammunition you may have to change the index point of the adapter. Good luck.

 

[Oninotaki]

That's a neat SXS. I'm a combination gun fan, so yeah, I'd have shot in the "other" barrel. Would be interesting to see where a .410 slug hits from the left barrel. I hear the Brenekke slugs perform very well. Anyhow, with a gentle load in the .327 barrel, and a shot load in the left, that would be on effective small game survival rifle.

How much does that .410 SXS weigh?

Well part of what makes it so pleasant to shoot is that it weighs 6.5lbs without the adaptors and I am sure it is pushing 7.5 with them, and the new metal sights. It makes it a bit heavy for a backpacking gun, when the Chiappa Double badger is a little over 5lbs and the Rossi Tuffy is just about 3lbs.

So the question becomes is the .327/.410 really a more potent combination than a .22 wmr/.410 for a small game rifle?

Where as I think a SxS .327 rifle (if I can get the sighting sorted out) is a significantly more potent rifle than a single shot .327 would be for deer hunting.

My goals now are to see what I can do about the other barrel, and see if the accuracy holds out beyond 50 yards. If it will do the 75-100 yard range that would be fantastic.

 

[Oninotaki]

This is the challenge with any double gun and a major reason I prefer O/U's to SxS's as I would rather compensate for elevation by using different weighted bullets then trying to hold X amount off target to the left or right. This is also why I like something like the .45-70 for this project as the cartridge is capable of shooting 250 to 500 grains of lead thus giving me a lot of potential options to find a combination that works in each barrel and shoots to the same POI.

Now, for your SxS hope is not yet lost as you can index the adapter and see what the result of that achieves. I would do a 90 degree turn in the left barrel and see what you get. It probably won't be perfect, but it could be improved to a point you can adjust the windage of the rear sight to a happy medium between both barrels.

Alternatively, you could figure out a way to mount a rear sight that flips up and down and is set for each barrel. IDK of any aftermarket sights that will fit to a shotgun that allow this.

Before you do any of that, shoot more groups in each barrel and find out what MOA you're dealing with, it's possible that one barrel is more accurate than the other and you might find a load that shoots better from one barrel.

Using adapters to convert a double shotgun into a double rifle involves a lot of work and at times sacrifice, but the end result is highly rewarding and worth the effort as you end up with an affordable rifle that can be returned to being a shotgun. What I would do right now if I were you is mark the insert/adapter in both barrels so you know which is for the right and left barrels and also note the index point. The right is easy as the cutout for the rim goes up, the left you will have to figure out thru index testing.

BTW, on indexing, as you change ammunition you may have to change the index point of the adapter. Good luck.

I couldn't find an O/U that I liked in my price range that didn't have a lot of aluminum components, and since I was putting a fairly high pressure round into the shotgun I wanted to avoid aluminum. Otherwise if I had a spare 2-3 grand lying around I would have gone that way.

I agree with you on marking the adaptors, and turning the left adaptor 90 degrees. Hopefully the 3, 6, or 9 o'clock positions will help align the left barrel with the right.

What was very encouraging was the consistency between bench, off hand, .327 and .32 h&r loads. I feel like with those kinds of repeated results something can be hashed out.

Also I would like to add that the TruGlo sights are very nice to pick up/easy to acquire. I really hope they hold up well, as the options for adding any sort of sights to the .410 Rossi Tuffy are basically non-existent.

 

[Oninotaki]

OK folks I popped out to the backyard range while the weather was nice to test the 3, 6, and 9 o'clock indexing of the adaptor.

Bad news is it didn't seem to make a difference. Good news is it didn't get any worse.

In addition I brought my chronograph out with me today and got some numbers on 3 different types of ammo that I shot through it. Also there does not appear to be any wear on the full choke barrels crowns, so it looks like the bullets are not making any contact with the full chokes. (.312 bullet Dia, .390 barrel ID so it makes sense.)

American Eagle .327 100g JSP:
-Listed Velocity: 1500 fps
--Ft/lbs: 500
-Actual Velocity: 2137 fps
--Ft/lbs: 1014

Federal Premium .327 85gr Reduced Recoil Hydra Shok JHP:
-Listed Velocity: 1400 fps
--Ft/lbs: 370
-Actual Velocity: 1932 fps
--Ft/lbs: 704

Federal .32 H&R Magnum 95gr Semi-Wadcutter:
-Listed Velocity: 1020 fps
--Ft/lbs:220
-Actual Velocity: 1340 fps
--Ft/lbs: 379

I was impressed to see those numbers to say the least and it is nice to see such variation in load power with such consistent results on the paper.

Lastly I apologize for only using one marker color. If you have any questions on the groupings feel free to ask.

The grid on the paper is 1 inch.

 

[Jim Watson]

Experiment 1: Index the OTHER insert. If that shifts its POI to the same as the wide one, adjust the sight.

Experiment 2: Attempt to regulate the inserts by shimming the taped zone.

ETA
In the deLuxe Zone, European drillings often came with small bore inserts for a shot barrel. Usually put in the right shot barrel because it would fire off the rifle's set trigger, they had zeroing adjustments built in. Usual calibers are .22 LR, .22 WMR, and there is a .22 Vierling for inserts and the small caliber barrel of a combination gun.

Accessories, Accouterments etc.

Ammo holder/wallet for drillings & combination guns. Holds up to 9,3x74 & 12 ga. Small elastic loops for your einstecklauf (sub caliber insert barrel) ammo. Classic German hunting stag (St....

classicsportingguns.com

 

[Dirtybob]

I've had the same truglo sights for about 4 years on my pump and am happy with them. No issues so far.
What distance were the last set of targets?
I have a 12 ga. (single shot) to .40 Chaszel 11" adapter that did well at 40 yards, have taken it to 70 yds and the (10 shot) group opened up to about 5". Maybe my ability to hold is not so good or that's just the limit of the platform. This thread makes me want to try some more paper targets with that setup...

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Where as I think a SxS .327 rifle (if I can get the sighting sorted out) is a significantly more potent rifle than a single shot .327 would be for deer hunting.

Oh, didn't know deer were on the menu. In that case, considering the cartridge, being able to put two shots into the target makes sense.

Well part of what makes it so pleasant to shoot is that it weighs 6.5lbs without the adaptors and I am sure it is pushing 7.5 with them, and the new metal sights. It makes it a bit heavy for a backpacking gun, when the Chiappa Double badger is a little over 5lbs and the Rossi Tuffy is just about 3lbs.

Weight is something to consider. But is this a back-packing gun, deer rifle, survival gun, or all of the above? I think my "best" all around survival gun, in the lightweight division, is a single shot 12 gauge I have, with .410 inserts. It has sights, sighted for slug or ball. It weighs five pounds. But with the .410 insert I can carry way more .410 than 12 gauge shot shells. And on very small game, birds, squirrels and cotton tails, the .410 is more than enough. If I had to shoot a deer, with a factory slug load, or a .690" ball over 110 grains of black, don't think I'll need any kind of follow up or second shot. And if I'm hungry and come across a turkey, I have a few 12 gauge shells with #4 shot. That's what I would grab if going back-packing, if I was to grab a long-gun. But for back-packing I grab a pistol.

In the 7# division, or a bit more, I have a Savage with .30WCF barrel over 20 gauge. That really covers all the bases. Full power .30-30, squib loads for small game, .410 insert for small game, 20 gauge shot shells (just a few) for slightly bigger small game, and some Brenekke 20 gauge slugs also for big game, or things trying to scratch or bite me.

Another favorite, but also in the seven plus pound range, is just my plain old 12 gauge SXS. With the .410 insert I can carry a bunch of small game shells, or load both barrels with ball if I find myself in the danger zone. But for sure, I wouldn't take anything over six pounds on a back-pack.

 

[Mauser lover]

I'm very interested in the accuracy of these inserts. I don't see much in the way of serious (bench/scope/real targets) accuracy testing anywhere on the web. I think I may need to pick up an/some adapters and give it a shot. This thread has the best info I could find. What distance were the targets in post 55?

 

[Oninotaki]

I'm very interested in the accuracy of these inserts. I don't see much in the way of serious (bench/scope/real targets) accuracy testing anywhere on the web. I think I may need to pick up an/some adapters and give it a shot. This thread has the best info I could find. What distance were the targets in post 55?

That lack of information is part of why I am including as much as I can in this post. Glad to hear it has been of some use to you. If you do pick some up please share your findings as well.

As to you question the distance was 20 yards in post 55.

 

[Oninotaki]

Here are today's updates.

I tried 3 experiments today:

-1st: index right barrel at 3, 6, 9 o'clock and see if there was any difference.
-- Results: no difference all 3 repeated all the other results. Right barrel shoots to point of aim, left barrel shoots to the right of that 4ish inches.

-2nd: Swap adaptors between barrels. While doing so the teflon tape I put on the adapts fell off.
-- Results: No change, right barrel shot to point of aim, left barrel shot to the right of it 4ish inches.
---Lack of teflon tape seemed to have no effect. This is nice because it makes it easier to swap between .410 and .32 caliber.

-3rd: Shoot .410 slugs out of it, and see where they hit, at 20 and 30 yards from target.
-- Results: Right barrel shoots to point of aim, left barrel shoots to the right of it 4ish inches. This happened at both 20 and 30 yards.

Conclusion: It's the shotgun. The $400 Stoeger barrels do no seem to be very well regulated. This is not terribly surprising considering the cost of the shotgun, its traditional use, and the difficulty in regulating barrels.

It does not seem to be the adaptors, which seem very well made, consistent, and provide near identical performance no matter the indexing or which is in which barrel. Ultimately for what they are the adaptors seem to be an excellent product.

I will continue to test at further distances.

 

[Dirtybob]

I don't see much in the way of serious (bench/scope/real targets) accuracy testing anywhere on the web

I don't have much to contribute to this but here are my 40 & 70 yard targets. Used a single shot 12 ga. with truglo vent rib sights much like the ones Oninotaki posted previously.
40 yards

70 yards

 

[Mauser lover]

I don't have much to contribute to this but here are my 40 & 70 yard targets. Used a single shot 12 ga. with truglo vent rib sights much like the ones Oninotaki posted previously.
40 yards
View attachment 1199730
70 yards
View attachment 1199731

View attachment 1199733

Chambering?

 

[Dirtybob]

Chambering?

40 s&w

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

If you're attempting a higher degree of accuracy with a rifled insert, the method used by some European combination/drilling gunmakers is an insert with a threaded muzzle nut. In German, they are called Einstecklaufs, and Krieghoff's are probably the best known. Most are also designed to work with the existing extractor systems, so you won't need a rod to poke out empties.

Accessories, Accouterments etc.

Ammo holder/wallet for drillings & combination guns. Holds up to 9,3x74 & 12 ga. Small elastic loops for your einstecklauf (sub caliber insert barrel) ammo. Classic German hunting stag (St....

classicsportingguns.com

Downside? Crazy expensive, like $500-1K.

Here's a link to one company's offerings:

Keppeler - Technische Entwicklungen GmbH - Einsteckläufe / Insert barrels

At one point Tanfoglio made a broadly-similar type of insert with an external muzzle nut, marketed in the USA via EAA in 45-70-to-12 ga. I don't see it currently listed at the EAA parts website.





Here's a link to the manual from EAA:

45-70 CONVERSION KIT

Manual for the 45-70 Conversion Kit by Tanfoglio

issuu.com

The protruding muzzle nut is perhaps a bit inelegant-looking, but the thing I like about it is that it positively positions the rifled insert under tension in the same manner as the interchangeable barrels on Dan Wesson revolvers.

I suppose one of the longer Chaszel insert barrels could be threaded and fitted with a similar external muzzle nut to mate with a shorter shotgun barrel in a manner similar to this, though you'd also need to cut a relief notch at the breech end for the extractor.

I own a single-shot Erma .22 LR adapter for the 7.92x57 K98k service rifle. It will also fit into just about any other bolt action in the same chambering and barrel length -- it works on my Husqvarna sporting rifle equally well. This adapter barrel uses an external muzzle nut similar to the Tanfoglio/EAA example. The muzzle nut is tapered at the rear and centers the insert as it tightens down and seats against the muzzle crown.

I can confirm that it has been very accurate at the short indoor distances I've shot it so far (unfortunately the target shown in this short video includes some sighters from zeroing the scope.)

Erma Modell 3 K98k 22 Rimfire Conversion Unit

This is an expansion and re-edit of my earlier video, with audio and shooting appended. (text continues below)Granted, most of the audio is the sound of noi...

www.youtube.com

BTW, I've not read every reply in this thread, so forgive me if this sort of insert system has been discussed previously here.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I don't have much to contribute to this but here are my 40 & 70 yard targets. Used a single shot 12 ga. with truglo vent rib sights much like the ones Oninotaki posted previously.
40 yards
View attachment 1199730
70 yards
View attachment 1199731

View attachment 1199733

Wow, I have that shotgun, in 12 gauge, although it is marked "Companion", with a NY address, and "made in Italy". I love that gun. Mine weighs 5 pounds. I also shortened my barrel, did yours come with that barrel length? Perhaps mine "needs" an insert for pistol caliber. I do use a .410 insert in it now.

 

[PapaG]

No problems with primer flow with the big firing pin hole?

 

[Dirtybob]

Wow, I have that shotgun, in 12 gauge, although it is marked "Companion", with a NY address, and "made in Italy". I love that gun. Mine weighs 5 pounds. I also shortened my barrel, did yours come with that barrel length? Perhaps mine "needs" an insert for pistol caliber. I do use a .410 insert in it now.

Yes, 18.5" barrel IIRC, made in Turkey by Derya Arms and is threaded for mobil chokes. Weighed less than 5 pounds as purchased, is closer to 8 pounds now.
One potential downside (depending on how you intend to use it) is that with the sights set for .40 slugs print extremely low (roughly 14" @ 50 yds). So not quite the 'jack of all trades'.

No problems with primer flow with the big firing pin hole?

No though I suspect a 'hotter' caliber would give issues (7.62x39 etc.), I recall hearing about a firing pin being forcefully ejected rearward on one such setup.

 

[TTv2]

No problems with primer flow with the big firing pin hole?

I think that depends on the shotgun used and what caliber is used. This is an opinion, but I'd think that large primers are going to be less susceptible to any issues as they're larger.

I'm trying to remember if I had any issues with a .32 H&R adapter in 12ga and I'm drawing a blank, I just remember that Lil' Gun powder was probably too much. I do remember that I had no issues with .45 ACP in a Chiappa adapter I used and I think I used SPP for that load, not large.

What I've concluded with 12ga adapters is that they're best used with big pistol calibers because the bullet weights match the sights on my over/under, but I suspect even a single shot with a bead front or a set of aftermarket ones like the OP is using if sighted in for the 12ga will match with heavy bullets.

All this talk on the adapters has me thinking I should grab the Chiappa .357 adapter and see how much 158, 180, and 200gr loads shift the POI compared to the .45 ACP 250gr loads I did. Also to test how small primers work with a higher pressure magnum.

If all works well, I think I'll grab one of the .357 Maximum adapters that Chaszel makes.

 

[Mauser lover]

Chaszel is going to have a spike in sales due solely to this thread!

 

[TTv2]

Chaszel is going to have a spike in sales due solely to this thread!

Given the price and finish quality, they deserve it. The cheapest adapters I know of are the Chiappa's, but you're limited in barrel length to 7.5" and also available calibers. Chaszel offers many lengths and an ever growing number of calibers.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Yes, 18.5" barrel IIRC, made in Turkey by Derya Arms

So the Turks are making them? That's interesting, but I'm not surprised, I think it's an excellent design. I love mine, although at five pounds and with 3" factory slug loads it's the hardest kicking long gun I've ever fired.

 

[Oninotaki]

Given the price and finish quality, they deserve it. The cheapest adapters I know of are the Chiappa's, but you're limited in barrel length to 7.5" and also available calibers. Chaszel offers many lengths and an ever growing number of calibers.

Agreed, while I wasn't aware that Chiappa made adaptors, AI have been keeping an eye on the rifled adaptors from https://www.gunadapters.com/.

Unfortunately they are never in stock, and they cap out at 8" I believe. Chaszel at this point seems to be providing a quality product, in a niche that is being poorly or at least inconsistently served.

 

[Oninotaki]

No problems with primer flow with the big firing pin hole?

None that I have seen.

 

[Oninotaki]

If you're attempting a higher degree of accuracy with a rifled insert, the method used by some European combination/drilling gunmakers is an insert with a threaded muzzle nut. In German, they are called Einstecklaufs, and Krieghoff's are probably the best known. Most are also designed to work with the existing extractor systems, so you won't need a rod to poke out empties.

Accessories, Accouterments etc.

Ammo holder/wallet for drillings & combination guns. Holds up to 9,3x74 & 12 ga. Small elastic loops for your einstecklauf (sub caliber insert barrel) ammo. Classic German hunting stag (St....

classicsportingguns.com

Downside? Crazy expensive, like $500-1K.

Here's a link to one company's offerings:

Keppeler - Technische Entwicklungen GmbH - Einsteckläufe / Insert barrels

View attachment 1199739

At one point Tanfoglio made a broadly-similar type of insert with an external muzzle nut, marketed in the USA via EAA in 45-70-to-12 ga. I don't see it currently listed at the EAA parts website.

View attachment 1199737

View attachment 1199738

Here's a link to the manual from EAA:

45-70 CONVERSION KIT

Manual for the 45-70 Conversion Kit by Tanfoglio

issuu.com

The protruding muzzle nut is perhaps a bit inelegant-looking, but the thing I like about it is that it positively positions the rifled insert under tension in the same manner as the interchangeable barrels on Dan Wesson revolvers.

I suppose one of the longer Chaszel insert barrels could be threaded and fitted with a similar external muzzle nut to mate with a shorter shotgun barrel in a manner similar to this, though you'd also need to cut a relief notch at the breech end for the extractor.

I own a single-shot Erma .22 LR adapter for the 7.92x57 K98k service rifle. It will also fit into just about any other bolt action in the same chambering and barrel length -- it works on my Husqvarna sporting rifle equally well. This adapter barrel uses an external muzzle nut similar to the Tanfoglio/EAA example. The muzzle nut is tapered at the rear and centers the insert as it tightens down and seats against the muzzle crown.

I can confirm that it has been very accurate at the short indoor distances I've shot it so far (unfortunately the target shown in this short video includes some sighters from zeroing the scope.)

Erma Modell 3 K98k 22 Rimfire Conversion Unit

This is an expansion and re-edit of my earlier video, with audio and shooting appended. (text continues below)Granted, most of the audio is the sound of noi...

www.youtube.com

BTW, I've not read every reply in this thread, so forgive me if this sort of insert system has been discussed previously here.

These look amazing and if they clearly offered them in .327 I would casually mention it to my father and see if he would take the bait.
Cost is no object to him when it comes to quality German engineering that proves Germans make it best