Powder deviations on thrower, dilllon 550

[Palladan44]

I try to be meticulous on keeping the strokes the same intensity when loading......extra shaking makes the powder settle a bit more in the Powder bar, giving you a heavier charge...... sometimes.
It helps a lot when using ball powder, as it pre-settles a lot better than flake, or extruded...... with lighter pistol loads, it's less noticeable, because the charge is smaller.... But in theory, the percentage of gain should still be similar, and thus a similar change to the load whether it's .1 grain extra on 10 grains or .3 grains more on your 25grains, or what have you....

Never cared much, because primarily loaded pistol loads where accuracy was acceptable always.

I'm to the point where I'm not satisfied with the amount of deviation, because I'm now trying to create sub MOA rifle loads for .223 and in refining my techniques, I'm finding that the standard thrower on the progressive isn't accurate enough, even when using a "meters like sand" ball powder like H-335.

Any suggestions?
Vibrator?
Trickler?
Hand weigh?

 

[dcloco]

Put a return spring on the plastic tab of the powder shuttle and around the base of the funnel of the powder drop.

Helps to provide the same shake/rattle/roll on each pull of the handle.

 

[nettlle]

I have a Dillon 550C and love it for pistol. But, because the powder measure jiggles while reloading, it does not give me the powder accuracy I want. I reload rifle weighing each charge on a beam scale. When reloading using a beam scale I use a Harrell's powder measure. Even the Harrell's does not give me the accuracy I want for rifle because it jiggles. There all kinds of ways around this. There are supersonic charge masters and I am sure they work great. But so does a good scale and a powder trickler which is the method I prefer to reload rifle.

 

[lordpaxman]

I'm to the point where I'm not satisfied with the amount of deviation, because I'm now trying to create sub MOA rifle loads for .223 and in refining my techniques, I'm finding that the standard thrower on the progressive isn't accurate enough, even when using a "meters like sand" ball powder like H-335.

I found a velocity node for my .223 gas gun and my powder measure throws pretty consistently H335 to keep it in this node. It’s a Dillon meter on a different model press.
For a longer range gun and striving for lower SDs, I do measure each throw, but I’m not convinced it’s worth it. What are you finding in the deviation that you think you need to change it? Just curious.

 

[LiveLife]

I'm not satisfied with the amount of deviation, because I'm now trying to create sub MOA rifle loads for .223 and in refining my techniques, I'm finding that the standard thrower on the progressive isn't accurate enough, even when using a "meters like sand" ball powder like H-335

I use C-H 502 micrometer powder measure on my 550 for rifle loads - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/powder-measure-reccomendations.863943/#post-11399069

10 drops with W296:

1. 9.70 gr
2. 9.62 gr
3. 9.62 gr
4. 9.70 gr
5. 9.68 gr
6. 9.64 gr
7. 9.78 gr
8. 9.70 gr
9. 9.64 gr
10. 9.78 gr

Range - 0.16 gr

 

[Nature Boy]

I did a quick statistical analysis on my Dillon thrower and posted what I found here:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ariation-of-the-dillon-powder-thrower.849682/

 

[jmorris]

I'm finding that the standard thrower on the progressive isn't accurate enough, even when using a "meters like sand" ball powder like H-335.

What kind of charge variation are you getting and how large is your accuracy node?

For metered charges, you need a combination that has an accuracy node larger than the variation in charges from your volume measure. That’s how the benchrest guys win with thrown charges and just “sub MOA” doesn’t cut it for the win.

 

[rfwobbly]

First you need to insure that you have all the pieces the physics of the situation require...
• Are you using the smallest Powder Bar that will do the job, or did you simply fit the Large Bar because you're loading rifle?
• Have you added a large diameter plastic powder adjustment knob to allow micro-adjustment of the metering cavity?
• Is your stock powder baffle intact and undisturbed? Or has the built-in baffle been removed or altered by someone who didn't understand the purpose? (With most powders the stock baffle will be sufficient, but with H335 you might want to try one of the enhanced metal baffles and see if that helps.)

Put a return spring on the plastic tab of the powder shuttle and around the base of the funnel of the powder drop.
Helps to provide the same shake/rattle/roll on each pull of the handle.

Exactly !!

• Lastly, ALL powder measures are metering Volume of powder, when what the user really wants is Weight of powder. It is intuitively obvious then to even a casual observer that what connects Volume to Weight is Density. Thus, to achieve consistent powder Volumes so that one may arrive at consistent powder Weights, one must introduce consistent vibration to achieve consistent powder Density. Without consistent Density all is lost; you'll need to give up and simply weigh every load of powder.

On a hand-operated powder measure, like a RCBS Uni-Flow, the user must practice fairly sophisticated operating techniques to achieve the vibration and density goal. But Mike Dillon was a VERY smart guy !

Mike Dillon was brilliant in that he added a release cam that triggers the powder bar to return. This cam allows the powder bar to slam to its home position, which inserts the same, exact vibration into the powder column on every op lever pull, no matter how fast or slow you operate the Dillon presses. So in effect, the correct technique is already built into the Dillon powder measure.

But this action can be enhanced with the aid of a return spring (or simple rubber bands). What I do is use the Dillon 450 powder measure return spring, and add a 3/4 inch length of stiff wire (such as a paper clip). This adds a slight bit of helpful closing energy, without adding so much that the powder measure beats itself to death. See the photo below....





(This is not a case where "if some is good, more is better". Notice how the spring is completely relaxed at the home position.)

The whole Dillon powder measure is a work of genius.

Hope this helps.
.

 

[Palladan44]

Double post, see below.

 

[Palladan44]

I threw 3 with consistent pulls all right at 23.5gr of H-335. +/- .1gr. I'm very happy with that.

But, let's say I skipped a step and pulled the handle to say only reprime a case, or whatever......you know what I mean, or break the cycle in some way with an extra pull of the handle (and not throw the charge from the previous pull) it then goes all the way up to 23.7 and 23.75!!!
The extra jostle helps the powder settle extra .3 or .35 grains. Which is a lot.

My point is keep the cycle the same throughout the process to avoid any extra motion in between steps to avoid the settling of the bulk density by about .75% volume. I'm interested in the return spring, and if there's a vibratory device I can add to the Dillon 550, I'm all ears.

Thanks guys, your responses are most excellent!

 

[dcloco]

@rfwobbly - YES! That is exactly what to use on first and second generation Dillon powder drops. Thanks for posting pictures.

 

[rfwobbly]

But, let's say I skipped a step and pulled the handle to say only re-prime a case, or whatever... you know what I mean, or break the cycle in some way with an extra pull of the handle (and not throw the charge from the previous pull) it then goes all the way up to 23.7 and 23.75!!!

Well, a screw-up is a screw-up... and all those create special situations. They break "the process" flow... the normal loading ritual. As with any progressive, you may need to pull several of the cases from the platen and deal with those cartridges on an individual basis when you get to the end of the session. Do not try to deal with them right them, or you run the risk of screwing up additional cartridges. Your loading process is sacred. It should not be altered "on the fly", or just because 2 or 3 special situation cartridges suddenly appear. No, sir. Deal with any 'specials' at the end, after you finish what's 'normal'.

Example: If your "process" of putting your kids to bed is: 1) read a story, 2) say prayers, 3) kiss them, and 4) tell them you love them, then even if you want a beer, you never break the process. The process is important for you and the kids. You deal with the beer after step 4 is finished. Consider how damaging it would be to stop the story or the prayer to say "Don't go anywhere. I need a beer." And it's the same in reloading. Special situations that pop up are dealt with at the very end.

The extra jostle helps the powder settle extra .3 or .35 grains. Which is a lot.

Yes it does ! But it's not that it simply "helps a lot", it's the MOST IMPORTANT part !!!

My point is keep the cycle the same throughout the process to avoid any extra motion in between steps to avoid the settling of the bulk density by about .75% volume. I'm interested in the return spring, and if there's a vibratory device I can add to the Dillon 550, I'm all ears.

► You may need a better understanding of some of the finer points of the loading process.
1) The spring lives on the powder measure. Unless you are servicing the PM, it is never removed.
2) Before the loading begins, while you "dial-in" your powder setting, there is only ONE cartridge case, and it's at station #2 under the PM. You will drop no less than 10 powder dumps from the PM. Drop numbers 1 through 8 all go back into the powder hopper. You don't care what they weigh, because the vibration must first get the density to the right place. This because there is NO consistent powder weight unless you FIRST have consistent Density !! It is physically IMPOSSIBLE to achieve consistent powder Weight, unless you FIRST achieve consistent Density. That's a Law of Physics and you would need to prove Einstein, Newton and Galileo wrong to do otherwise.
3) On powder drop #9, you can begin to make your first weight check, and adjust the PM accordingly. It may take until drop #12 to #15 until you are seeing the exact powder weight you want repeat. Only then can your begin the full reloading process. That adds up to 10 to 15 shakes of the powder hopper to get the powder density correct, BEFORE actual loading begins.

► You can get the spring from Dillon CS by simply calling them and saying you need the return spring for the 450 powder measure.

► If you add the spring, then you don't need any additional vibratory devices. I've been using the spring setup since 2001, and my powder "drops" are dead on. This is what I explained in my earlier posts. Mike Dillon built the "smarts" into the Dillon PM so that you don't need all the 'old school' fixes. The problem here is most proabably a lack of proper setup, not a lack of sufficient vibration. Again.... This is not a case where "if some is good, more is better".

Hope this helps.
.

 

[thump_rrr]

I try to be meticulous on keeping the strokes the same intensity when loading......extra shaking makes the powder settle a bit more in the Powder bar, giving you a heavier charge...... sometimes.
It helps a lot when using ball powder, as it pre-settles a lot better than flake, or extruded...... with lighter pistol loads, it's less noticeable, because the charge is smaller.... But in theory, the percentage of gain should still be similar, and thus a similar change to the load whether it's .1 grain extra on 10 grains or .3 grains more on your 25grains, or what have you....

Never cared much, because primarily loaded pistol loads where accuracy was acceptable always.

I'm to the point where I'm not satisfied with the amount of deviation, because I'm now trying to create sub MOA rifle loads for .223 and in refining my techniques, I'm finding that the standard thrower on the progressive isn't accurate enough, even when using a "meters like sand" ball powder like H-335.

Any suggestions?
Vibrator?
Trickler?
Hand weigh?

This is where red beats blue.
The Hornady powder measure with its pistol and rifle rotors throws about +- 0.04gr

There are people using the Hornady powder measure on the Dillon.
There isn’t enough room for the linkage if you’re using a bullet feeder die according to Dillon users

10 actual throws measured on my A&D FX-120i
The scale has a resolution of 0.02gr.


Pistol Rotor
WIN-231
3.94, 3.90, 3.94, 3.90, 3.92, 3.92, 3.94, 3.94, 3.90, 3.92

Accurate No.7
5.64, 5.62, 5.64, 5.64, 5.62, 5.62, 5.66, 5.64, 5.64, 5.64

Rifle Rotor

Ramshot TAC
23.98, 24.00, 24.02, 24.02, 24.04, 24.00, 24.04, 24.02, 23.98, 24.04