Whats your favorite powder measure

[The Bushmaster]

Deavis...No offence taken until you say that I don't maintain my equipment. As a perfectionist and a neat freak and making a life time (48 years so far) living maintaining all kinds of man made machinery from all kinds of gas and diesel engines (BIG ONES to little ones) to oil cleanup (open ocean skimmers [36 ft crafts]) and salvage machinery (Gas and diesel driven pumps [3 to 10 inch] and generators [5 KW to 40 KW]) Not to mention being senior boat operator and instructor. Company west coast electritian and instructor. and teaching these young people everything I know (I'm retiring soon). I think I know what I'm talking about. Man made machinery fails. That's why I'm here. (Love Those Paychecks. Will miss them).

As has been stated in other strings some powders don't work all that well in all powder measures. In mine, in particular, flakes get between the disc and the dispencing hopper and cause it to stick. By the way...I clean and inspect my powder dispencer after every loading session and every time I change powders for a new run.

 

[Deavis]

As I pointed out to you in a PM, I wasn't making an accusation about your maintenance habits. I'm sure that they are solid, but my point is that being studious means making sure that your tool works 100% under the conditions it sees.

Your pwder measure does not work with a certain powder, therefore it is your fault for not repairing it to work 100%, modifying it to work 100%, or replacing it with a measure that is 100%. The device cannot be held responsible for failures to dispense powder unless it has a mechanical failure, only you as the operator can be responsible.

You choose to use a measure that does not work 100% of the time and then say that you have to check every single charge because the device is flaky. Wrong! If your powder measure does not work 100% with a specific powder then you should not be using it for that powder or should repair/upgrade the device to work properly under the conditions you place it into.

Perhaps my choice of words wasn't perfect but I think you get the gist of what I'm saying.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Deavis,
I just found this post after I PM'ed you. And I need to correct you on one point. I check each and every charge that I drop...I weight each and every charge that I drop. I have NEVER undercharged or overcharged any cartridge in my life. Nor have I ever had a failure to fire or travel down range. No missfires, no duds, no bullets lodged in barrels. No errors of any kind except those that were deliberately intended to be an outragious experiment. And they too went down range. Some not as accurate as others, but down range. My Lee Auto Disc II works just fine. thank you. I know of no powder dispencer that works as well with most powders and they all have certain powders that they don't work well with.

At this point I will let you rave on if you so choose. I will calmly back away. (AKA LIBERALville, TX???? L O L. Not as bad as SSRofC)

The Bushmaster The one and Only

 

[BluesBear]

Personally I think the Lee Auto Disk is as almost as good as anything else made by PlaySkool.
I have owned two and they were toys at best.
For commercial work they were a joke.

I had a friend with one that Lee replaced two or three times and it still wouldn't throw consistent charges.
As I recall he finally sent it back to the factory with a jar of petroleum jelly and a slightly amended instruction sheet.


I ended up using mine, before I threw it away, to load match ammo. I'd use the Lee to throw a short charge and then use a powder trickler to bring it up to full weight. In that function it's slightly faster than using the trickler alone.

 

[bogie]

If your powder measure fails to dispense a charge, under any circumstance, it should be replaced or repaired because it is defective. It is an error to keep using a device which you know to be defective under certain circumstances and trying to blame it for your lack of will to repair or replace it. If your tools, which you make a living with, are don't work 100% of the time, you replace them, right? Why would your powder measure be any different?

HUH?

Man, I feel I need to get out the Clue Bat on this one...

EVERYTHING screws up occasionally. NOTHING is 100% all the time.

I've got a $225 (when I bought it, more now) Harrell measure that has clogged its drop tube a couple of times. Am I going to pitch it? No way!

I _do_ however pay attention to humidity and other conditions, and those drop tubes are clear for a reason. It is rather obvious when a powder measure decides that it hates you. Any experienced handloader will realize that there are some things which cannot be controlled, so you double-check things.

Heck, the machine shop that's next to my office will occasionally have something kicked out out of spec - it gets tossed in the recycle bin. No big deal. That's why you check things AFTER they're finished - it's quality control.

Personally, I've had good results with Lee autodisk meaures - you just have to keep them "loose" enough - If you get everything so tight that there is absolutely zero powder leakage, they don't want to work. You may lose a flake or two with 'em set right, but they're much more reliable that way.

 

[The Bushmaster]

BluesBear...Who's loading commercially?? Not me. I don't need $20,000 loading equipment like you have. I've just been loading for my enjoyment and nobody elses..

 

[Deavis]

I _do_ however pay attention to humidity and other conditions, and those drop tubes are clear for a reason. It is rather obvious when a powder measure decides that it hates you. Any experienced handloader will realize that there are some things which cannot be controlled, so you double-check things.

Notice I didn't say that the device is absolutely perfect, sometimes it has failures, and that is why you monitor it. However, my point is that you cannot blame the powder measure for operator errors.

Your example, humid conditions cause powder to stick and you blame the measure. The real issue is that you should not have been operating that measure in an environment that was too humid for it to operate properly. The powder measure doesn't hate you, you are operating it in a condition it was not designed to function in. Fix? Don't operate the powder measure when it is that humid. Simple as that, you no longer operate it under those conditions, and it works as expected. I'm not advocating throwing out the baby with the bath water, just using some common sense.

Inanimate objects should not be blamed for the errors that the humans operating them make. I'm beating a dead horse here so I'll digress.

 

[The Bushmaster]

You digress? Oh brother...Who said anything about operator error here. We were talking about machinery malfunction. Which is not all that uncommon.

You get up in the morning and check all weather conditions, what neighbors will be home or gone, how much sodas/water is in the refrig. Then and only then you decide if it is safe to reload??? At what humidity do you load at?? Just wondering. You see I don't have a barometer or a horse hair humidity indicator at my workbench...Do you? Guess I could yank one (horse hair) from one of my Quarter horse's tails. That might work, I guess...

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Ah the beauty of having the reloading room inside the house with the air conditioning! Yes, I also watch the baro, humidity guage and while I am at it I usually look at the wind speed and direction. Why else have an expensive commercial grade weather station mounted on the house?

I am amazed at how much better all of my equipment is working after I had a dedicated bench put into my house and I had it mounted to the floor slab. With AC, a super solid bench, tile floors and lots of light I found that my scale had less variability, the measure threw more consistent charges and rust was not as much of an issue.

Seriously though, it sounds like a technique and equipment placement issue over raw hardware to me.

 

[bogie]

Okay....

I guess I'll just have to forfeit the next benchrest match I'm shooting in when it rains...

Dude, get a clue.

A good powder measure, good operator technique, and _good oversight_, and you're there.

I suggest that you throw out your computer the next time you make a spelling mistake.

 

[Deavis]

Dude, get a clue.

Its funny that some of you guys can't wrap your heads around a simple logical point. You take offense to something I wrote when it is obvious that you haven't even bothered to think about. It is so foreign to you to think outside the box, scary scary! If anyone needs a clue, it is you.

Never fear though! This is just like those scary theories they gave you in math. You don't have to understand them for the world to work. However, you will always be blaming the world, or powder measure, for your problems when the truth is that your lack of understanding is to blame.

Who said anything about operator error here

I did after you said,

If you don't stay "on your toes" you will eventually get no powder or a double charge

and tried infer that a double charge was the fault of the powder measure rather than the person who operates and maintains it. To which I explained in very simple terms that it is impossible to blame a powder measure for errors committed by the operator.

After which you and bogie raved on about tolerances and other useless facts including work experience that have absolutely no bearing on the point. You have repeatedly failed to recognize the logic I present and resort to this as your argument.

EVERYTHING screws up occasionally. NOTHING is 100% all the time.

To which I have never refuted, merely pointed out that it isn't as simple as that. It is as simple as Peter points out

I am amazed at how much better all of my equipment is working after I had a dedicated bench put into my house and I had it mounted to the floor slab. With AC, a super solid bench, tile floors and lots of light I found that my scale had less variability, the measure threw more consistent charges and rust was not as much of an issue.

All of the things that he did to improve the conditions that he placed his powder measure in are operator controlled. None of those conditions' affect on measure accuracy can be blamed on the measure itself, only the operator. It really is quite simple. Stop taking offense and use your bean for something other than arguing. This really is an incredibly simple concept to grasp.

 

[bogie]

Okay - you say you've used a Dillon and an RCBS... and that they're perfectly functional.

Let's see... What have I got here...

Harrell premium measure
RCBS Uniflow with micrometer, bottle adaptor, and Sinclair drop tube
Lee Perfect
Two Lee autodisk measures

What calibers are you loading for?

I load for...

.22PPC
.220 Russian
.223
.22-250
.243
6PPC
6BR
7mm RemMag
.30-30
.308
.300 WinMag
8mm Mauser
9mm
38 Special (rifle and pistol)
.357 Mag (rifle and pistol)
.45 ACP
.44 Magnum

And I may be forgetting a few...

So you use a Dillon and an RCBS... What kind of scale do you use? What is its accuracy? What other measuring devices? Chronograph, calipers, micrometers? How accurate are they?

Tell ya what... I'll bring my obviously faulty, in need of replacement, Harrell premium powder measure, and load with it at the range, using nothing but hand dies and a (horrors) hand priming tool. You can load in a climate-controlled hermetically sealed clean room environment, using whatever tools you've been able to find that are capable of achieving 100% perfection.

Bring money.

 

[The Bushmaster]

I can see where I am going to enjoy moving to Missouri when I retire.

 

[sako_75]

Wow, has thread ever gotten off course... I started this thread looking for a measure that would consistently throw light charges of flake powder and to hear from anyone who might have experience with the Harrell pistol measure.
This thread has turned into man vs. man debating man vs. machine. Just please some one tell me weather they have used a Harrell pistol measure and whether or not it is worth the $200.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Oh...That's easy...Just ask bogie. He owns one....L O L

 

[sako_75]

life would be no fun without a sence of humor.

 

[sako_75]

By the way Bushmaster he has a Harrell premium measure, the same one I have and it wont do what I'm looking for. I looking for info on the Harrell Pistol Measure.

 

[The Bushmaster]

I bet he can answer that one too...Can't you bogie........

Humor in this life is a necessity. In fact I plan on having a sense of humor in heaven too.....In 38 years........

 

[bogie]

Doh. The things that hack me off and get me sidetracked...

I've gotten okay results from my Lee autodisks - don't completely knock 'em. Frankly, they're gonna leak a little if they're set up right. But if you run the press in a consistent manner, they do pretty good. You bang it around one round, and then baby it the next, well...

That said, give the brothers a call - they'll tell you straight. BTW, tell 'em Bogie sez hello, and that I wish we'd had more of a chance to chat during the Supershoot...

Lynwood & Walter Harrell
5756 Hickory Dr.
Salem, Va 24153
540-380-2683

You can also contact Sinclair. Talk to Geoff or Steve, and tell 'em that St. Louis is ready for the NBRSA Nationals. Ron's already shot his big group for the year, so bring it on.

Yeah, you'd like this area. Gun laws are getting better, and we've got a great range.

 

[bogie]

Oh yeah...

Keep in mind that your average scale (meaning just about any that we'd own...) has a +/- of 0.1 grain. So if you're seeing an 0.2 grain spread, but all the powder looks the same in the cases, don't worry about it. IMHO, for a lot of light charge cases (most handgun), the weak link in the measuring process is the scale, not the measure.

The real way to check consistency isn't with a powder measure or a scale - it's with a chronograph. And your targets.

Here's a tip, and the manuals don't tell you this one.

Put your scale away. Use it for setup (and after you get used to how a Harrell works, use your notes), and to keep you from doing stupid stuff. Use your chronograph to check your loading accuracy. If you're getting a lot of spread, something's wrong. Either switch powders, switch measure technique, or get more radical and switch barrels/bullets.

And if your powder measure says that everything's perfect, your chronograph says that everything's perfect, and your targets suck, try a different powder, a different bullet, or a different barrel.

 

[Deavis]

Sorry, sako I apologize for getting the thread off-topic. I shouldn't say things that are above the level we maintain around here. Heaven forbid we contradict the Greats of Reloading with a simple logical conundrum.

Bogie: beat you chest all you want, it doesn't change the fact that you do not seem to fathom the simple logical thought process that I have put forth. I love when people fall back on all their "accomplishments" as proof that they actually know what they are talking about when it is clear they don't have the education, understanding, or skills to actually discuss that topic in depth. I'm not saying you lack those things, but you have yet even put forth something worthwhile in rebuttal other than beating your chest and singing your own praises.

This is like arguing engine modifications with some hack mechanic who knows everything because he's been building engines for 30 years. Despite the fact that laws of physics and common engineering go against what he says, he knows because he can beat his chest harder than anyone in the room. Heaven forbid someone who is actually an engineer and understands what he is talking about correct him!

Gosh dearn it, I just be knowin dat cuttin dat dere valve must make da fuel flow swirl roundy boundy into de uh.. comboostion thingy.

The results a hack gets are usually good due to extensive trial and error, but many times the logic for getting there is completely wrong. That is why the guys at the top all have degrees and experience to boot. Just because someone has reloaded a million rounds, with a million powders, and a million different calibers doesn't make him an expert. It simply means he's loaded a ton of ammunition, which anyone that can read a recipe, pull a lever, and use a scale can do.

 

[bogie]

Son, you must be from one of those big cities, and a product of those fancy colleges. They teach all sorts of great theories in the ivory towers, and many of the folks seem to eventually come to believe them, to the exclusion of what exists outside the hallowed halls of academia. Colleges today teach that bears are misunderstood herbivores, that Arabs really love us, that a whistle and car keys are effective tools for a 110 pound female facing a 220 pound rapist, and that a two pound chunk of wood and steel will turn whoever holds it into a drooling homicidal racist maniac. Yup. I've got a great deal of respeck for them colleges today...

Theory don't mean squat when real-world conditions step in. Let's go to the range. Bring your fancy perfect rounds, and I'll load right there, in whatever conditions are present. Bring money. I'm _serious_. Do you have a set, and have your parents given you a large enough allowance, that you can afford this? I've got numerous rifles that will shoot sub-MOA on a 100 yard target. How many have you EVER loaded for? Or are you worried that your airsoft won't make it to a 100 yard target?

"Perfect" equipment doesn't exist. We're not concerned with perfection - we're concerned with remaining within the bounds of imperfection; inside tolerances. When I hear that someone is measuring something to 0.001" I believe 'em, within tolerances. When I hear 0.0001", I'm guessing they're really just trying to get darn close. And when I hear 0.00001", well, either they've got one heckuva climate-controlled facility, with all the nice fancy gear that gets calibrated (in an equally advanced manner...) constantly, or... they're a BS artist. I'm happy with Mr. Starrett and Mr. Mitutoyu. The first stage in science is understanding what does NOT work.

Do you weight sort your brass? What spread? 0.1 grain? Congratulations. Unless you use a lab quality balance, in a sealed room, on a solid table (the general use balances in our labs at work are on tables that are about 6" thick marble...), you're gonna get variations that are due to equipment. Deal with it. Oh, you say you're using your Pact scale, or your Dillon scale, or even your Lee scale (I happen to actually like Lee scales...) to sort your brass? Congratulations. You've entered an 0.1 grain error margin before you even started. How many pieces have you already imperfectly sorted? This is just enough to make you wanna run and slit your wrists, isn't it...?

There's a lot of little bits of knowledge that one gets with 30 years of experience (not to mention various degrees and other academic study, but not everyone feels the need to wander around waving diplomas...). Another one is that a bright shiny young engineer can be a dangerous thing. Education, understanding or skills? Son, I'm not the thick one here... Think for a minute or three...

You do NOT know who you are insulting here.

Again. Bring money, and prove what you say is true in the real world. $100/5 shot group, 100 yards, with a moving backer, and someone else scoring the targets. Most matches we'll shoot 6-10 targets/day.

 

[Chuck R.]

sako_75


I’d say order the Harrell’s, with a guarantee like there’s you cannot loose.

When I ordered my second “Classic”, they sent me the measure with an agreement that I’d try it and either send them a check, or the measure back.

I’ve still got the measure.

If the Harrells tell you it will work with small loads of flake, I’m betting it will work.

Chuck

 

[bogie]

Oh, what the heck... I know of ranges in Oklahoma, Kansas, etc... I might even drive as far as Midland, but damn, I hate that dust... I'm still getting it out of my gear from the 2002 nationals...

Loser buys the fuel.

 

[Eep]

Maybe I'm just looking at this through ivory-colored glasses, but I'm not sure I understand how a controlled environment could possibly not improve the consistency of loads.

bogie- Even if you are able to load more consistently, that does nothing to prove your point. As far as I can tell, Deavis is saying that the conditions you load under (environment, equipment maintenance, etc.) are the responsibility of the operator just as much as the motions of your arm and hands. Even if you prove that person A under conditions X can load more consistently than person B under conditions Y, you have established nothing but the weakest of relationships between the two sets of conditions. The real bet to set here would be whether either of you could load more consistently in a controlled environment or just out in the shed in back. If you can load better in a controlled environment, then Deavis is right and that's a step that you as the operator can take to improve your loading consistency. Unless your measure is designed to seek out air conditioning, lay a foundation, and bolt itself to it, these things are the responsibility of the operator, not the machinery. By the same token, unless the machinery is designed to operate independent of the conditions, any failure that occurs due to humidity (as mentioned) is the fault of the operator, not the machinery.

It's like driving a carbureted car from Key West to Gnome Alaska in winter and complaining about the fact that once you get there it starts hard and the mileage is terrible. That's not the car's fault. It's not part of the design of the car to deal with that automatically; it's your responsibility as the owner to re-tune the carbs or get them tuned. Now if you have a computer-controlled, fuel-injected car and you do the same thing, you have every right to be upset if it doesn't run right because dealing with changing conditions is part of its design envelope.

BTW, go Cards