lightman
Member
I use IMR 4350 in my bolt guns and IMR 4895 in my autos. Someone said something about if it ain't broke.........!
Powders for .30-06
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nofendertom
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I am loading 150gr bullets for my good buddy's 03-a3.
Would prefer IMR / H 4895 but haven't seen any locally but have seen some of the mentioned powders.
Thanks to all for the useful info.
Would prefer IMR / H 4895 but haven't seen any locally but have seen some of the mentioned powders.
Thanks to all for the useful info.
Bwana John
Member
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- 2,960
4895,
and... Unique!
and... Unique!
Captcurt
Member
I took a couple of mulies at around 7000 feet. My rifle was a 270 loaded with 130gr Speer HotCor over IMR-4350.. My home range is 800' above sea level. Both deer were between 350-400 yards with temps ranging from 55 to 10 above.. Even though this load was worked up in 80 degree temps both bullets landed within inches of where they were aimed.
If you do find IMR/H4895 a modern equivalent of the ball ammunition load with a 150 grain bullet is 47.5 grains 4895.
SAKO Finnbear 24" Barrel
150 gr Sierra Match HPBT 47.5 IMR 4895 CCI#34 OAL 3.290" WW2 cases between 190 and 195 grs
17-Aug-06 T = 85 °F
Ave Vel = 2703
Std Dev = 26.41
ES = 80.66
High = 2739
Low = 2659
Num shots = 10
If you can't find 4895, you might try IMR 4350 or AA4350. AA4350 was blended to copy the pressure curve of IMR 4350
150 gr Fed Fusion 57.0 grs AA4350 wtd, lot 12997 WCC54 CCI #34 OAL 3.30" greased bullets & cases
15 Jan 2018 T = 45 °F
Ave Vel = 2707
Std Dev = 25
ES = 82
High = 2741
Low = 2659
N = 10
150 gr Fed Fusion 57.0 grs AA4350 wtd, lot 12997 LC54 annealed CCI #34 OAL 3.30" greased bullets & cases
9 Feb 2018 T = 59 °F
Ave Vel = 2697
Std Dev = 21
ES = 58
High = 2725
Low = 2667
N = 10
shoots well enough out to 300 yards
The military never backed off their 2700 fps requirement for 150's, and if you actually test Garand era ball ammunition, the stuff chronographs closer to 2650 fps. The 2700 fps requirement was based on one Frankford arsenal pressure barrel, and in issue barrels, the velocity is lower. I talked to a very elderly man at a match who worked at Badger Ammunition Plant. He measured the velocity and pressure of various lots of WC852 (AA2700 is a copy of one lot of WC852) and determined the load which would push a 150 gr bullet to the 2700 fps requirement. This gentleman told me that with the powders of the era (post WW2) that pressures would never meet or exceed the 50 kpsia spec limit. What data I do have, post WW2 powders met the velocity requirement at pressures just at 40 kpsia. And you know, there is no reason to try to increase the velocity or the pressure, the standard ball ammunition worked world wide and won two world wars.
The use of IMR 4350/AA4350 is fine in a bolt gun, but it is too slow burning for Garands.
Jeremy2171
Member
Milspec is 2740 at 78ft for M2 ball. Which in reality is 2800-ish at the muzzle. WW2 era M2 ball is easily 2800+fps at the muzzle. M2 AP 165grn is just at 2800fps as well.
Once you get to the late 60s the velocity slows down quite a bit but I have a theory on that and then the LC 72/74 stuff the velocity is back up to 2800-ish fps.
Port pressures cover about a 3000psi range for milsurp ammo...oddly commercial ammo port pressures fall in this range as well albeit on the higher end but still with the same pressure as USGI milsurp.
entropy
Member
IMR 4350 in 22" and longer bolts. IMR 4064 in bolts also, and autos, except short barrels, which get IMR 3031.
I haven't loaded .30-06 in since 1991.
I haven't loaded .30-06 in since 1991.
I have shot ammunition that was made when the Garand was the service rifle and it has always been a lot milder than the numbers in the TM. Which incidentally, are based on one Frankfort Arsenal pressure barrel.
You run 2800 fps ammunition in your Garand, expect a lot of malfunctions. It is possible that later, LC69 ammunition, was tailored for the M1919 machine guns still in service. Garands were not front line issue in the Vietnam War, and by 1969, even the M14's were pulled from the field, But M1919's were still being used.
M1 Garand BMR Receiver Douglas Barrel 1:10 twist
150 gr FMJBT 1966 Ball
14 Nov 2011 T= 74 ° F
Ave Vel = 2545
Std Dev = 20
ES = 68
Low = 2513
High = 2581
N= 8
174 FMJBT White Box 1968 NM M72, Headstamp LC67 match, box velocity 2640 fps
14 Nov 2011 T = 74 °F
Ave Vel = 2592
Std Dev = 28
ES = 103
High = 2647
Low = 2544
N = 10
174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895 Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM CCI #34 OAL 3.30
14 Nov 2011 T = 74 °F
Ave Vel = 2632
Std Dev = 20
ES = 60
High = 2671
Low = 2611
N = 10
Jeremy2171
Member
Again... your results in one rifle are pretty much irrelevant considering bore wear / dimensions can vary from a test barrel held to min dimensions.
Again.. M2 ball is spec for 2800 fps at the muzzle. Some of my rifles meet these numbers and some run slow like yours.
However when I run them through the test barrel they are where they are supposed to be. Even the slow late 60s M2. However it's loaded with fast burning CMR100 powder and in non test barrels it shows a marked velocity loss...and low port pressure.
There is zero issue running 2800fps ammo in a garand...there is no velocity restriction in garands. 3000+ fps is easily achieved with no harm to the rifle.
In 2001 the CMP issued 150 gr Federal made 30-06 for the Camp Perry Garand match. The stuff was made to commercial specs, which when a shooter I know chronographed the ammunition in his rifle, was clocking around 2800 fps. The stuff caused malfunction after malfunction. The retired Marine I scored, the clip jumped and he was unable to complete his rapid fire. The CMP heard enough complaints that they did a study and found they had to set requirements for lower velocity, lower pressure ammunition. Some of which I chronographed later years. This is in a 26 inch barrel.
M98 26" 1-10 Wilson Barrel
150 gr FMJBT TW 56 Ball
24 Mar 04 T= 70 ° F
Ave Vel = 2680
Std Dev = 31
ES = 78
Low = 2620
High = 2698
N = 6
150 gr FMJBT 1966 Ball
14 Nov 2011 T= 68 ° F
Ave Vel = 2596
Std Dev = 47
ES = 190
Low = 2498
High = 2688
Group Size: Surprisingly good ammunition.
150 gr Sierra Match HPBT 47.5 IMR 4895 CCI#34 WW2 brass OAL 3.290"
24 Mar 04 T= 70 ° F
Ave Vel = 2722
Std Dev = 26
ES = 76
Low = 2673
High = 2749
N = 10
Group Size: All in ten ring, very mild load,
150 gr FMJBT 2002 John Garand Match ammo Federal mgfr
23 Aug 03 T= 80 ° F
Ave Vel = 2699
Std Dev = 26
ES = 69
Low = 2668
High = 2737
N = 5
Group Size: Rather good
150 gr FMJBT 2003 John Garand Match ammo Federal mgfr
23 Aug 03 T= 80 ° F
Ave Vel = 2773
Std Dev = 45
ES = 114
Low = 2712
High = 2826
N = 5
Group Size: Rather good
I tried a screen shot of my acceptance sheet of WC852, it may be an eye ball chart.
The Government buyer is using a standardization cartridge traceable to a Frankfort Arsenal test barrel. When it is fired at the Arsenal, it gives 2700 fps. When fired at the vendor it gives 2675 fps. Both pressure and pressure are “corrected” to the Frankfort numbers. I have another acceptance sheet for a different lot, somewhere, and this is what they did.
But, the TM values you are quoting are from one specific Frankfort Arsenal test barrel, and the actual velocities are lower in issue rifles. If you are recording higher velocities in vintage ammunition, like 2800 to 2900 fps, it is very possible that the velocities are due to deterioration of gunpowder, which actually cause higher pressures and velocities.
By the way, the shooting community thinks gunpowder is immortal and unchangeable. So you see lots of shooters chronographing old surplus ammunition, and seeing velocities much higher than the original issue specifications. And they think the ammunition originally produced those velocities. Because their rifles are not immediately blowing up, they think the stuff is safe. The fact they don’t see physical signs of excessive pressure does not prove the pressures are not excessive. Physical signs are unreliable to say the least, which is why reloading manuals had to go from using physical signs, such as primer indications and sticking cases, to pressure gauges.
This web page has an example of 8mm Mauser ammunition that is almost going 3000 fps. The shooter thinks that is normal and good. It is, in my opinion, evidence of deteriorated ammunition
https://www.turkmauser.com/ammo/mhbTurk.aspx?#Romanian
A machine gunner I know had 1950’s Yugoslavian 8mm twice “blow the top cover” off his machine gun. That old stuff is unstable and someone shooting enough of it will discover why it was removed from inventory.
You are free to fire 3000 fps ammunition in your Garand, but I won’t. I have seen enough malfunctions on the firing line during matches to determine , I want none of that. My load of a 150 with 47.5 grains of IMR 4895 just about duplicates the service loads I have tested. The typical load recommendation for a 150 grain bullet is around 46 grains to my high of 47.5 grains with a 150 bullet.
Higher velocity and higher pressure loads will knock the heel off a Garand, this is a Garand receiver that was fired with CMP surplus HP Greek ball. It was hot enough to crack the heel.
Might have been old ammunition, might have been hot reloads, might have been slamfires
I don’t want a cracked receiver, my Garands are too expensive to hot rod them with hot reloads, or old deteriorated ammunition, nor do I want malfunctions in my Garands. I don't recommend hotter ammunition for those very reasons. My ammunition functions in all weather conditions, is accurate, and that is good enough for me. I can run hotter ammunition in my bolt guns, but I won't in my Garands or M1a's.
Attachments
entropy
Member
That is a nice group for 500 yards!
The previous group from a few weeks ago was tighter. It blows me away to drive up to a group like that.
Thanks!
That is an excellent group, but shoot a bit more, and I will bet the wind will change the group size. It is too bad the range I shoot at is not a wind tunnel.
See the range flag at 600 yards?
and this was a calm day, the flag on the left is moving, but not the flag on the right. That changed in time. Wind is not constant, nor is it linear.
Jeremy2171
Member
2800fps is where it's supposed to be. Anecdotal comments about it causing malfunctions are just that.
Like I stated in test barrels the numbers are where they are supposed to be. In production barrels the results can vary from very close to the test barrel results to way slower than the results. Every production barrel is different. If one of your rifles is close to the TM specs then obviously it's a "tighter" barrel...not close to the specs indicates its more "loose".
Umm almost 3000fps is normal....for that load. If you would do a little research you would see that the ammo he tested is pretty close to its spec velocity.
yes defective/old brass can cause case head failures..its a concern shooting vintage ammo.
There is no velocity limit on a garand.
It cracked the heel because the oprod spring was worn allowing excess bolt speed.
Good springs prevent heel battering...good lube (grease for most conditions) prevents oprods from getting tweaked.
Not case head failures, burn rate instability with old gunpowder.
This is an interesting video that clearly shows the dangerous of old ammunition, and everyone who has watched it, and everyone who is involved in it, are clueless why the rifle blew up. This is a picture perfect example of the culturally induced ignorance, the “Agnotology”, that the shooting community has carefully, and deliberately, imposed on itself, about the problems of old ammunition and old gunpowder.
RN-50 Blow-Up
Kentucky Ballistics
And the thing that jumped out to me was the immense fireballs, and finally the gun blew up.
The guy from Kentucky Ballistics says in the video that the “Slap round was very, very old”
And there you have it. Old ammunition.
This video shows the case heads, 2007 ammunition.
And like I said, I am not shooting 3000 fps 150 grain bullets in my Garands. Receivers cost too much to replace.
Jeremy2171
Member
No..it's case head failures. If you move the powder and projectiles into new brass the issues go away.
The jury is still out on the actual cause of that. PS...13 years old isn't "old" for ammunition.
Thats fine...but just because you think the receiver is going to be damaged..doesn't mean it is...
TRX
Member
> Buddy of mine swears by this powder for a 30-06. (BL-C2)
I shot a bunch of different powders in .30-06. After I tried BL-C2 I didn't bother trying anything else.
Clean-burning, easy to meter, minimal shot-to-shot variation, what's not to like?
Also works well in 7.65x53 Mauser and 7.7 Arisaka.
I shot a bunch of different powders in .30-06. After I tried BL-C2 I didn't bother trying anything else.
Clean-burning, easy to meter, minimal shot-to-shot variation, what's not to like?
Also works well in 7.65x53 Mauser and 7.7 Arisaka.
entropy
Member
As well as 7.62x54R and 7.62x39. 
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