Power Factor Decisions

[Doublehelix]

Shot my first USPSA match this weekend. As expected, the results were mixed: a couple of decent stages, a couple of mediocre stages, and a couple of HORRIBLE stages.

Honestly, my accuracy was decent (except on one stage), but my times were pretty slow. This was by design and was part of my plan for my first match.

I was shooting minor PF (9mm, 128 PF handloads), and I can definitely see the advantage point-wise for going to major PF, but at what cost?

I can go with a 1911 that is chambered in .45, but only holds 8 rounds (I can get some CMC 10-rounders), but I have a feeling that the extra recoil will affect my accuracy, and probably won't do anything to help my speed.

Out of the top 17 scores (out of 70 total), only 1 shooter was listed as minor. That is somewhat telling.

I have no plans on loading +P+ loads to get into 9mm major, so I am going to eliminate that right up front.

I tried to Google some of this, and I got *some* information, but does anyone know the breakdown on the most popular calibers for USPSA?

• I have never been a .40 fan. Never. Got a buddy with a Glock .40, and I hate it honestly.
• .38 super is expensive, and the cases are like gold hen's teeth.
• .45 just seems like overkill and has a lot of negatives from a recoil perspective without spending a fortune on an STI or something similar.
• I know absolutely *nothing* about 10 mm.

I really hate to add another caliber to my reloading regimen, but I can if need be. I currently load both 9mm and .45 ACP.

I am not going to be buying anything anytime soon, but it seems like the most common choices are .40 and 9mm in some of the off-the-shelf speed guns (STI, etc.).

As long as I can score Alphas, then the 9mm will be fine I suppose, but I am definitely losing points along the way, and as I start working up on my speed, my accuracy is naturally going to go down a bit.

What are you all shooting? What made you decide to go that route.

Thanks in advance for replies to the newbie questions...

 

[fxvr5]

Remember that a 9mm or 38 Super only qualify for Major power factor in Open Division, where you'll be competing against folks with red dot sights and compensators. In all other divisions, 9mm and 38 Super only qualify for Minor scoring.

If you want to shoot Major power factor with you 45, I'd suggest trying it in Single Stack Division. Everyone there will be using single stack guns, just like you. Or shoot in Limited 10 Division if you want to use 10 round magazines.

Recoil with a 45 is mild because you can load them down and still make Major. A 230 grain bullet only has to go 718 fps to make power factor and feels pretty tame with the right gunpowder - a fast powder that requires a small charge weight to make the desired speed.

Here is an article on power factor to help you understand the best loads for low recoil;

http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloading/power-factor-recoil-bullet-weight-gives-edge/

Whatever you do, shoot for As. Speed will come with time as you get more experience in the sport.

Don't spend any money on a new gun. Shoot some matches and make sure you want to continue the sport and get some experience.

 

[Doublehelix]

Remember that a 9mm or 38 Super only qualify for Major power factor in Open Division, where you'll be competing against folks with red dot sights and compensators. In all other divisions, 9mm and 38 Super only qualify for Minor scoring.

If you want to shoot Major power factor with you 45, I'd suggest trying it in Single Stack Division. Everyone there will be using single stack guns, just like you. Or shoot in Limited 10 Division if you want to use 10 round magazines.

Recoil with a 45 is mild because you can load them down and still make Major. A 230 grain bullet only has to go 718 fps to make power factor and feels pretty tame with the right gunpowder - a fast powder that requires a small charge weight to make the desired speed.

Here is an article on power factor to help you understand the best loads for low recoil;

http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloading/power-factor-recoil-bullet-weight-gives-edge/

Whatever you do, shoot for As. Speed will come with time as you get more experience in the sport.

Don't spend any money on a new gun. Shoot some matches and make sure you want to continue the sport and get some experience.

That was a great post!!! Thank you Sir!!! I have been shooting steel matches for while, but have had plans to start shooting USPSA and/or IDPA for a long time, and finally got the chance, and I love it! I am on old guy in my 50's just starting out with shooting matches, although I have been shooting guns for most of my life. It is going to be dang-near impossible to catch up to some of those Yungin's that are killing it with fancy Open guns. I have false hopes that I will be winning any match in my lifetime, but I would like to be competitive, have fun, and learn something. Talking some smack with my friends is just an added benefit!!!

I did not realize that you need to shoot Open to get major PF with 38 Super or 9mm. Great bit of information, thanks. I have no intention of going Open for a long, long time, so that helps narrow things down a bit.

I might try my 1911 next time, and after reading the article that you linked, I might load up some 185gr or 200gr SWCs and run them through the chronograph and see what *just* making the 165 PF feels like, and compare that to the 230gr RN's at 165 PF. Single Stack division is cheaper for now so I don't have to buy a bunch of new mags.

You are right however, I have no immediate plans to get a new gun, although it is fun to drool outside of the candy store window!

Once again, thanks for the GREAT post. That was just the information I was looking for.

 

[Sam1911]

In your case I'd go with the common 200 gr. SWC cast bullet (probably polymer coated for lead safety in handling and less mess) and a charge of something like Hodgdon Clays or Alliant's American Select (personal favorite) to get it safely above the power factor level, and then just never worry about it again. Churn out 10,000-20,000 of those and when you've burned them up in practice and matches, you'll be at a good place to stop and re-evaluate your gun and ammo needs.

It's real easy and tempting for new guys to get a bit hung up in the equipment race or worrying a lot about how this or that gun would be better. And what they really need to do is focus on improving themselves, day in and out, on the range.

 

[Doublehelix]

In your case I'd go with the common 200 gr. SWC cast bullet (probably polymer coated for lead safety in handling and less mess) and a charge of something like Hodgdon Clays or Alliant's American Select (personal favorite) to get it safely above the power factor level, and then just never worry about it again. Churn out 10,000-20,000 of those and when you've burned them up in practice and matches, you'll be at a good place to stop and re-evaluate your gun and ammo needs.

It's real easy and tempting for new guys to get a bit hung up in the equipment race or worrying a lot about how this or that gun would be better. And what they really need to do is focus on improving themselves, day in and out, on the range.

Thanks for the reply.

I have some great loads for coated SNS and Bayou SNS 200gr. SWC bullets behind Bullseye and HP-38, but have never really tried to get the PF down to just at 165 before. In fact, I have always focused on accuracy and never really had a need to worry about PF before. In steel, there are no PF requirements, which is pretty cool, but I have always shot 9mm for steel, so no need to even worry about PF for .45's before. @Dudedog helped me with some really light 9mm loads for use with Steel Matches, and they are coming in at a PF of right around 100. Not going to work obviously with USPSA, but they are perfect for SCSA matches.

I agree about the improving myself comment. I work on that every week, and will continue to do so.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond.

 

[tarosean]

but does anyone know the breakdown on the most popular calibers for USPSA?

All dependent on the class you want to compete in.

As long as I can score Alphas, then the 9mm will be fine I suppose,

The only people I have ever seen score 100% of the points.. finished dead last.
Remember everything you do is against the timer.


These are the only classes I have ever competed in.

Limited 40SW
SS 45ACP
Production 9mm.


If your dead set on shooting minor only hang out in Production.

 

[Doublehelix]

The only people I have ever seen score 100% of the points.. finished dead last.
Remember everything you do is against the timer.

These are the only classes I have ever competed in.
Limited 40SW
SS 45ACP
Production 9mm.

If your dead set on shooting minor only hang out in Production.

I am not dead set on shooting minor, hence the purpose of my post, and I totally get what you are saying.

I do think I am going to consider the SS 1911 (.45 ACP) next month, and work up some softer shooting loads in the mean time.

Unfortunately, my main 9mm gun is a SIG P226 SAO (totally stock), but since it is SAO with a safety, I am forced to compete in Limited. I have other 9mm guns, but do not like them anywhere near as much as my beloved SIG, nor do I shoot them anywhere near as well.

 

[Creaky_Old_Cop]

230gr TCFP 45 projo over 4.5gr of Titegroup. Feels like you're shooting a 9mm and the POA/POI are anout an inch high at 15 yards out of a 5" 1911. They also run like a scared bunny out of a 625 revo.

My pet SS load for IDPA, USPSA, and Tuesday Night Steel.

thump....thump...thump...

 

[Doublehelix]

230gr TCFP 45 projo over 4.5gr of Titegroup. Feels like you're shooting a 9mm and the POA/POI are anout an inch high at 15 yards out of a 5" 1911. They also run like a scared bunny out of a 625 revo.

My pet SS load for IDPA, USPSA, and Tuesday Night Steel.

thump....thump...thump...

Hmmmmmm... you are the second person in a week that has recommended Titegroup for .45. I have a ton of TG and I use it pretty much exclusively in my 9mm for my full power loads. Sounds like I need to give that a try. Thanks.

 

[Creaky_Old_Cop]

Hmmmmmm... you are the second person in a week that has recommended Titegroup for .45. I have a ton of TG and I use it pretty much exclusively in my 9mm for my full power loads. Sounds like I need to give that a try. Thanks.

I love.....LOVE Tiregroup. I love it almost as much as my beloved Hodgon Clays. TG works well in 9, 38, 40, 45, 44SP, and 357.

 

[Doublehelix]

I love.....LOVE Tiregroup. I love it almost as much as my beloved Hodgon Clays. TG works well in 9, 38, 40, 45, 44SP, and 357.

As I mentioned earlier, I use primarily Bullseye and HP-38 for .45, but it might be worth the effort to work up a TG load or two. I don't have any TCFP bullets, but have a ton of 230 gr. RN and two sizes of SWC's. I'll do some digging for recipes.

 

[Jim Watson]

Agree with fxvr5 right down the line.
You can learn the ropes in Single Stack Major with your .45 and no additional expenditure, except some extra magazines to get through a long field course.
It is not a real popular Division, having been added to
1. compete with IDPA CDP and
2. let people get some use out of guns otherwise obsolete for USPSA.
but that should not affect you. Shoot, enjoy, learn.

Don't try to load all the way down to minimum power factor. 165.1 will get you demoted to Minor with very slight changes in load, weather, or chronograph setup, should you undertake a match with chrono stage. F 170 is ample for local matches.

I do not understand the Magic Powder Hunt. If I have a 200 at 850 for f 170, it does not matter to me whether I loaded them with HP38 or Bullseye or any of the other fast burning powders suitable for .45 ACP. If you have Titegroup, it will work, but I would not buy some thinking it will make a big difference. I got done with that sort of experimentation some years ago.

 

[Creaky_Old_Cop]

As I mentioned earlier, I use primarily Bullseye and HP-38 for .45, but it might be worth the effort to work up a TG load or two. I don't have any TCFP bullets, but have a ton of 230 gr. RN and two sizes of SWC's. I'll do some digging for recipes.

The LRN will work fine too. I just use the 230 TCFP because I have 3 LEE 6 cavity molds and unlimited wheel weights and linotype....I cast my own. 230gr RN or jacketed give identical results. I can turn out about 1200 in an hour of casting. Happy Meal.

 

[1stmarine]

I don't compete but use 357SIG for IDPA type weekly training.
I use it full power as originally intended.
Very flat shooting and hard hitting round. No more felt recoil than the 40 cal.
This is essentially like a 357 magnum but from a high capacity autoloader.

 

[Doublehelix]

Agree with fxvr5 right down the line.
You can learn the ropes in Single Stack Major with your .45 and no additional expenditure, except some extra magazines to get through a long field course.
It is not a real popular Division, having been added to
1. compete with IDPA CDP and
2. let people get some use out of guns otherwise obsolete for USPSA.
but that should not affect you. Shoot, enjoy, learn.

Yeah, I am definitely leaning that way right now. I have about 10 McCormick 8-round mags, but only have a double leather mag carrier that I use for daily carry use, and the same for the holster, so I am going to have to grab about 5-6 mag holders and a DOH holster of some type (I prefer the Bladetech Design in the Bob Stoeger Boss setup. That is what I am using with my 9mm SIG for steel).

Don't try to load all the way down to minimum power factor. 165.1 will get you demoted to Minor with very slight changes in load, weather, or chronograph setup, should you undertake a match with chrono stage. F 170 is ample for local matches.

Yeah, I loaded my 9mm rounds to about 129-130 PF for this past weekend to give myself a bit of margin. I will do the same with the .45 rounds. Great tip, thanks.

I do not understand the Magic Powder Hunt. If I have a 200 at 850 for f 170, it does not matter to me whether I loaded them with HP38 or Bullseye or any of the other fast burning powders suitable for .45 ACP. If you have Titegroup, it will work, but I would not buy some thinking it will make a big difference. I got done with that sort of experimentation some years ago.

I get ya, the only reason I would consider using TG is that I have so much of it (like 20 lbs), and if I can get the number of different powders that I use down to 1 or 2, it makes my life a lot easier. Right now I use TG for 9mm, and Bullseye and HP-38 for .45, and then both Varget and Tac for rifle rounds. But... I also have a few other things laying around like some Power Pistol, some BE-86 (don't care for either one), some True Blue, and some AA#2.

Considering TG for .45 not because it might be a "magic powder" (I love that term, you should trademark that!!!), but just for convenience sake.

Thanks for all of your great comments and suggestions. Very helpful.

 

[Dudedog]

If you decide to shoot the .45 in single stack and are going to buy a holster make sure the holster meets the requirements for single stack otherwise you would probably fall in limited or limited 10.
(need to double check my rule book to see whats legal in Single Stack holster wise)

I like HP38 in .45, Titegroup and Bullseye worked but I had better results with HP38,
all guns seem to have their own favorite however.
With a 230gr RN 5" 1911
String: 2
Date: 9/11/2016
Time: 9:25:57 AM
Grains: 230
Hi Vel: 762
Low Vel: 714
Ave Vel: 734
Ext Spread: 48
Std Dev: 16
45 RMR 230 4.7 HP38 OAl 1.21 (this bullet has a short blunt RN and needs to be loaded depper than most other RNs)
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
762 175.26 296.51
735 169.05 275.87
725 166.75 268.414
748 172.04 285.715
739 169.97 278.881
721 165.83 265.461
714 164.22 260.331
so If I wanted to make sure I made major probably + .1 or .2 gr with this bullet.
Most likely about 5gr HP38 with other 230RNs.loaded longer.

HORRIBLE stages

For some reason (probably just to remind myself why don't want to do it) I seem to decide to mess one stage up every now and then.
Hope you had a good time anyway.

 

[ATLDave]

FWIW, Henning Walgren - a serious competitive shooter and a manufacturer of aftermarket parts for Tanfoglios and (now) CZ's - is currently doing a lot of USPSA competitions using a 9mm in LTD (and the attendant minor scoring). While he ain't gonna win a national championship that way or beat national level GM's, he is having some success. He's posting about this on facebook quite a bit these days, so you might enjoy reading his updates about his LTD minor adventures and why he's doing it.

 

[Doublehelix]

FWIW, Henning Walgren - a serious competitive shooter and a manufacturer of aftermarket parts for Tanfoglios and (now) CZ's - is currently doing a lot of USPSA competitions using a 9mm in LTD (and the attendant minor scoring). While he ain't gonna win a national championship that way or beat national level GM's, he is having some success. He's posting about this on facebook quite a bit these days, so you might enjoy reading his updates about his LTD minor adventures and why he's doing it.

Very cool. Thanks for that. I will look him up...

 

[ATLDave]

Here's his shooting/business FB account: https://www.facebook.com/henning.wallgren

You'll notice that, while he talks about slowing down in order to collect basically ALL the available points, he is still crazy fast compared to a typical club-level shooter. Just bear that in mind when he talks about focusing on speed-vs-accuracy. It's like listening to a golf pro talking about trying to just hit a smooth, 3/4 7 iron into the green - from 190 yards. Or a Formula One driver being slightly less aggressive by taking a turn at 140 mph instead of 145.

 

[Doublehelix]

Yeah, I was just at his site, and watched a bunch of his videos and read a lot of his posts. Pretty interesting.

I am probably going to stick with 9mm minor LTD for now, which is not optimum, but after I have 10-15 matches under my belt, I can step back and reevaluate things.

 

[ny32182]

My primary division is production; and I've shot Limited just enough to learn the following:

- I can shoot the .40 95+% as fast as I can shoot the 9mm. There is literally almost no detectable difference in how fast I can split once I get the the hang of the difference in the recoil impulse and how the gun cycles.
- 21 or 22 rounds in .40, vs. 23 or 24 rounds of 9mm is not enough of a capacity difference to ever really matter. Most stages you will be doing one reload either way.
-IMO, you therefore simply can't give up 30 to 50% of the points you should be getting for non-A hits, and hope to be competitive with shooters of a similar skill level. I just don't see how it can happen. YMMV.

Single stack is a different story since the percentage of capacity difference is relatively so much greater; there are many stages and situations where 11 rounds will let you pick up significant speed on a stage vs. 9 rounds. This is totally stage design dependent and variable, but it seems to happen enough to make minor competitive in Single Stack.