Practice and Accuracy Under All Conditions

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wbond

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I posted the below as a reply to another thread about the .32 Magnum, which I love. However, I thought this would also make a good thread in itself because it illustrates how practice habits affect performance under various conditions.

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Regarding all the doubts about .32 Mag. It's got the penetration and some mass and diameter to work with. If you combine that with marksmenship, you're in good shape.

I do my target practice starting just before dusk so I get in some daylight practice. Then I continue until 30 minutes after dark.

In this way, I get practice in daylight, at dusk, and after dark. I get my most practice after dark.

I started doing this because I live in WA State and it gets dark soon after I get off work in later winter and early spring. In mid-winter it gets dark at 4:30 PM. So I started practicing this way because I couldn't get to the shooting range any sooner.

However, I developed the ability to shoot well in daylight, dusk (twilight), and in the dark by moonlight or even starlight. I don't have a laser or any other gadgets.

I use the sights during daylight at 15 yards. At twilight I used sights until it's tough to see them, then I point shoot. All twilight shooting done at 10 yards. After dark I do all point shooting at 7 yards.

My cousin is an excellent shot with his .44 Magnum in daylight, but he never in his life target practiced after dark.

He and I normally practice solitary, but on a few occasion we shot together.

He can outshoot me in daylight, but that's how he does all his practice. He's really good and put's multiple shots through the same hole at 15 yards.

However, at twilight we are equally decent shots.

After dark I'm still hitting the target point shooting at 7 yards and I'm all in the second ring out or closer. Some bulls eyes too. He's missing the target entirely, but then he never practiced after dark before.

The point is this: Practice under the conditions you might need to shoot for self defense. When I first started practicing in the dark, I couldn't even find the safety to put it off. After practice, I can now draw, knock safety off, and then speed shoot my .32 ACP Firestorm with all center mass hits in second ring and first ring. Same with my .32Mag Ruger SP101.

In the dark, I'm hitting center mass consistently with my .32s and my cousin is missing consistently with his .44 Mag. Sometimes he completely misses the man sized target. He can't do any better with my .32s either. He has no experience in the dark and no experience point shooting. He says the muzzle flash blinds him and he can't see the target at all. That's because he's trying to use the sights by moonlight (big mistake).

My eyes are no better than his, but I don't have any muzzle flash problems after dark. Why? Because I'm only looking at the target, not the gun or sights. It's like when an oncoming car has bright lights aimed at you when you're driving. If you look at the oncoming lights you'll go blind. If you avert your eyes from the oncoming car lights, you can still see the road. Same thing here. I do it without even thinking because I've been practicing this way for some time.

The bottom line is this: A .32 Mag will get it done if you can hit your target center mass consistently in all conditions. I also do this in the rain and cold.

My cousin is an expert marksmen under ideal daylight, warm, dry conditions as he practices in. I'm a decent shot under all conditions.

My .32 Mag or even my .32 ACP are more deadly in my hands at night than his .44 Mag in his.

Accuracy counts more than caliber. So yes, the .32 Mag can get it done.

Incidentally, my cousin's night time performance is worse the bigger the gun he uses because of greater muzzle blast blinding him more. My .32 ACP is best at night, followed by my .32 Mag.

I haven't tried .380 at night, but I'd bet it be a good one too.

I did try my 9x18 at night, but I can't hit much at night because muzzle blast makes it hard for me to see target, even though I'm trying not to look at gun, sights, or blast.

Less muzzle blast is a virtue at night and helps more than increased power. I actually think a .32 ACP is the best gun for near zero visibility night shooting. I can consistently hit best with the .32 ACP and second best with .32 Mag.

===========================

P.S. - My Firestorm came with fantastic sights that work well in twilight. My Ruger SP101 came with good sight for daylight, but useless in twilight because the front sight was black.

I used Loreal finger nail polish to paint the front sight bright orange. This is more highly visible than any of the orange sight paints I ever tried. Model paint is also good for high visibility, but is not as durable as finger nail polish. I like Loreal (bought at Walmart) because it's one of the most durable brands of finger nail polish according to beauty advice gal I consulted.

Loreal has the brightest orange of any brand I've seen. Loreal also makes a bright yellow. I used orange because it works well in daylight and twilight. I suppose yellow would be better for twilight, but I don't think as good for daylight. Actually, I'm not sure about the yellow. I know the orange works great.

I used a new, clean toothbrush and 99% rubbing alchohol to clean the front sight before painting it. The trick is to buy some finger nail polish thinner before you start to clean the brush (I learned the hard way). It took me 6 tries to get it right, but it looks factory done now.

If you screw it up, wipe it off with toweling paper, then repeat the alcohol toothbrush scrubbing. Then start over.

Also, it is imperative that you keep the lid on the bottle when not using it. This stuff gets tacky in about 30 seconds at room temperature in humid weather.

The trick is to use a very thin coat and then let it dry 30 minutes. Then use a second thin coat. If you get lumps, you used to much and/or messed with it to long. You can only work with it about 20 seconds before it gets tacky and then lumpy. The thinner will be needed to clean lumps from paint brush.

The best idea would be to clean the sights with alcohol and a new toothbrush yourself, then let a chick paint the sight for you. They are finger nail polish experts. I learned the hard way. I should have hired an experienced young lady to paint the sight for me. However, I'm now a wiz at painting gun sights. I'll bet I could paint finger nails now too.

That Loreal stuff is considered expensive compared to other brands of finger nail polish, but at $2.95 a bottle at Walmart, it's dirt cheap compared to buying official sight paint. Loreal is also better than any commercial, official gun sight paint.

The sight painting is intended for shooting at twilight, and in daylight when a dark background is behind target. In daylight with a light background behind target, I can still see the orange front sight fine (which is why I didn't use yellow or white).

After dark, DO NOT look at the sights because the muzzle blast will blind you. You probably couldn't see the sights in the dark anyway no matter what color they are painted. Incidentally, I think glowing night sights (like Tritium) are a bad idea because looking at sights in the dark will result in muzzle blast blinding you. After dark, forget about sights and just look at target and point shoot.

Those are my experiences.
 
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Good job on addressing some of the issues of low-light. Now try this:
Do a one hundred yard dash. Gets the pulse up there, breathing fast, a little shaky. Now put a few into the intended piece of paper.:eek:
 
real practice

Why not just buy those rubber tips from speer and you and your cousin shoot each other at night. See who wins that fight. I recomend saftey glasses, but it would be interesting to see who cried "Uncle" first, and it would make for good entertainment.
 
To Shermacman:

Good idea. Seriously.

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Quote:

Good job on addressing some of the issues of low-light. Now try this:
Do a one hundred yard dash. Gets the pulse up there, breathing fast, a little shaky. Now put a few into the intended piece of paper.
 
What are rubber tips?

Do you mean rubber bullets?

If so, are you freakin nuts?

If not, then I apologize about questioning your sanity.

Paint ball guns would be good for combat practice, if they simulated muzzle blast because that plays a huge part. In fact, the muzzle blast and how it affect me vs. my cousin seems to be the deciding factor in why I can shoot better at night than he can.

Practice without muzzle blast would not be realistic.
 
re:

Tenderfoot,

Just in case somebody takes that post seriously...

Several years ago, I bought some of the Speer plastic ammo for indoor practice. I hung 4 layers of heavy towel material behind the target for a stop baffle...and shot the first round through all four. It struck a spray-paint can, and knocked a tiny hole in the side...after which the pressurized can proceeded to dump its contents all over my drop ceiling and wall. That gave me pause to consider how seriously that a body could be injured with that ammo.
 
I was being humerous on the real battle post, but I thought the muzzle velocity on them was only about 300-400 fps . I am suprised that it did that much damage to a can. Something tells me bond and his .44 caliber cousin are good ol' boys with plenty of thick clothing in the closet though =P. Let me know who wins ;)
 
Interesting report wbond.

It's been said that 70+% of shootouts take place in the dark or low light but yet I'd bet that most shooters have never once practiced when they can't see their sights. It seems that they think just because they have night sights, they are in good shape.

I use good lasers on my defense guns, when possible, and it increases the probably of a good hit at even a long distance (25-30 yards) to almost 100% as long as there's enough light to make out the target.
And, of course you wouldn't be shooting any why if you couldn't see the target.
 
To Tenderfoot:

I'd like to formally invite you to try that with my cousin while I watch from a safe place.
 
To M2 Carbine:

I agree that laser lights are a great help to getting hits in low light. However, they also help the other guy see where you are, which should help him get hits too. i.e. - he can aim at the laser light on the end of your gun.

With regard to seeing and hitting the target in the dark: I've got that down to an art now. By point shooting looking at the target only, I can see good enough to get a body hit on a black target at 7 to 10 yards everytime.

After the first shot, the muzzle blast effect on the eyes takes over (for good or bad). I use the muzzle blast as a helpful tool to illuminate the target momentarily and make a quick mental picture of where it is for the next shot. I can do this because I'm looking at the target, not the gun or sights.

i.e. - I never look at the muzzle blast. I look over and past the muzzle blast to look at the target. In this way, I use the muzzle blast to aid my vision.

My cousin has more shooting experience than I do, but all of it's daytime experience. He just can't seem to learn to avoid trying to look at his front sight. The result is that he goes blind from muzzle flash after the first shot. His first shot often does hit the target about as good as mine, but after that he can't even hit the paper for the rest of his shots.

For point shooting at night, you have to make the muzzle blast your friend and use it like a strobing flash light. Everyone knows how to use a flashlight. When using a flash light, you look at the target, not the bright part of the flashlight. Same with a gun at night.

If you're using a laser, I assume the muzzle blast is less important as a sight tool, but you'd still need to avoid looking near the blast to prevent night blindness.

When I first started practicing in the dark, I was inept, slow, clumsy, and blind. Now I'm smooth, fast, and accurate.

Bottom line: there is no substitute for practice in the dark. I can now do everything in the dark from putting off safety fast to getting hits, to reloading.

Note: I'm talking Firestorm-Bersa here, so putting off safety fast in the dark is not as easy as it sounds, but with practice it is.
 
You are assuming that the laser is being shined around like a flast light.
If used properly the BG might see a flash of Red light an instant before he is hit by a bullet.

In this kind of shooting the only difference between what you are doing and what I'm doing with the laser is I'm assured of a good hit out to 20-30 yards.
You are point shooting at 7-10 yards and hitting the target somewhere.
(what kind of groups are you getting?)
With the laser I'm also point shooting but as the gun comes on target the laser is lit and any error is corrected as the trigger is pressed and I already know where the bullet is going to hit.

For instance here's a 25 yard target shot in near darkness.
So, just in this senerio, do you think you would stand much of a chance against a BG with this gun?

I'm not pushing Crimson Trace lasers, do whatever you feel comfortable with.:)

38SWlaser25yards.gif
 
Quote:
shermacman "Good job on addressing some of the issues of low-light. Now try this:Do a one hundred yard dash. Gets the pulse up there, breathing fast, a little shaky. Now put a few into the intended piece of paper."

Good thought shermacman. Exactly why I believe the Biatholon is one of the true sports. Now do all of the above using the weak hand.
Another aspect many forget to practice is weak hand shooting. A skill that could prove "handy":p oneday!
 
To M2 Carbine:

Regarding my groups and accuracy: I always do this as a speed shooting exercise. My cousin says "Go!" whenever he's ready, not when I say I'm ready.

Then I draw gun, flip off safety, then speed shoot 11 rounds until mag is empty.

I've done this at 12, 10, and 7 yards. At 12 yards my group size and placement looks very similar to yours (except you're doing this at 25 yards with a laser). At 7 yards, my groups are very tight and all in the center ring.

My marksmenship at 12 yards is about equal to yours at 25 yards. However, my targets are always black background man-size-shape targets by design. Ever hear of a criminal dressed in white at night? I do this under nothing more than starlight on darker nights and moonlight on brighter nights. Under moonlight it's easy (after several practice sessions). Under starlight it's difficult and will likely remain difficult.

I've been night practicing every Friday night for 4 weeks. When I first tried this at night, it took me 3 seconds to draw and 5+ seconds to get my safety off. Now I can draw, put off safety, and fire all in about 2 seconds. Not fast, but I'm continuing to improve. Bersa-Firestorm safeties are not easy or natural, but with practice it's becoming fast and natural. I like the fact that my gun safety will NOT be natural for anyone else since they haven't practiced with it. My cousin for example, struggles so much he has to turn on a flash light to turn my gun's safety off.

No BG could ever get my safety off in the dark in any amount of time, and would likely have a hard time in daylight. No, I don't plan on losing my gun to a BG, but I'm just saying that the pain in the butt Walther style safety does have its advantages.

I also practice at home in the dark (with unloaded gun) my draw, putting off safety, and trigger squeeze. This in pitch dark. i.e. - I'm learning to do it all by feel.

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I keep my targets and take notes on them regarding distance, where I was pointing etc.

Interestingly, at 12 yards about half of my rounds hit dead center, but any that are off center are off to the left, just like yours. Why is that?

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Regarding lasers: I've probably never seen one used correctly. The guys at my gun club shine them around like flashlights (and still can't shoot as good as I can without one). That's why I've never been impressed with lasers. Likely, I would be impressed if I saw you in action.

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FYI - shooting in dark is not allowed at our outdoor gun club, but long time members do it and no one says anything. So I tried it a few times to. However, I prefer to do this stuff at my cousin's house in the country because that way I know there's only one loaded gun on the range at a time. That is my cousins and my agreement. One loaded gun at a time in the dark. i.e. - I feel safer at my cousins when practicing in the dark. Also, I wear a yellow jacket when doing this (for obvious reasons).
 
To Savage 250:

I agree completely. Weak hand shooting should be mastered. That is a good argument for a 9mm instead of a .40 or .45 by the way. Also, a good argument for a .38 Spl rather than a .357 Mag.

I am an ambidextrous shooter, but wasn't born that way. I started life as a righty.

Although I love my Firestorm .32 (sold by Firestorm, made by Bersa), it does have one serious drawback. Its safety is for right-handed people. The .380 is identical. Firestorm and Bersa .32 and .380 safeties both share this drawback. However, the Firestorm and Bersa 9mms are fully ambidextrous guns.

That is one thing I have to say in favor of my CZ-83s and other CZs I've seen at the CZ-USA website. My CZ-83s are ambidextrous guns. Other models of CZ are either ambi, or offer an ambi version.

Ideally, I prefer any auto I own to be an ambidextrous gun.

I have only shot at night right handed. Haven't tried it lefty yet. I'm better with my right hand.

My left hand offers decent accuracy in daylight. Eventually I'll try it at night lefty, but I'm not read for that yet. I'm also going to try running and getting winded just before shooting. However, I'll do the running routine in daylight, at least initially.

The Firestorm and Bersa 9mms are totally ambidextrous, even more so than the CZs.

Overall, I prefer the Firestorm guns because they have softer rubber grips, especially their 9mms. That is very helpful to recoil sensitive hands. Also, all models and calibers of Firestorms have rounded trigger guards that don't have sharp edges like a recurve guard does (helpful when shoving in waistband or pocket). Lastly, the Firestorms and Bersa are lighter and smaller than CZs, but the Firestorms are still very comfortable and accurate to shoot. My preference for Firestorms has nothing to do with the price, but they are very affordable as an added bonus.
 
To M2Carbine:

Try the night shooting routine again under starlight using a paper target that is solid black and human size-shaped.

I think you'll find it much more difficult to see your laser against a black target. This is why the guys at my gun club struggled with their lasers at night and kept them on so much.

I personally find it difficult to see the solid black target (at all) at 12 yards, which makes it much more challenging. I cannot see my gun at all. It's a matte black gun. Yet I never miss the target. I do miss the bullsyeye about half the time, but never miss the target. The worst shot I've ever done was a shoulder hit. Most are somewhere in kill zone (similar to your group).

I have also used white target with dark outline similar to yours. This was easier. A solid black target really tests your vision.

Incidentally, about a year ago, I started taking a table spoonful of emulsified codliver oil every day to improve my night vision (Vit A). At one time in the past, I was going night blind. Now my night vision has improved to at least average.

Ironically, my cousin sees better in the dark than I do, which is obvious when we walk in the dark. Yet I shoot better in the dark than he does. That's practice overcoming nature.

Try shooting under starlight at a solid black target and then let me know how it goes. I'd be curious. Note: I started doing this on moonlit nights and worked up to starlit nights. So maybe you'd want to start the solid black target routine on a moonlit night.
 
QUOTE
{After dark, DO NOT look at the sights because the muzzle blast will blind you. You probably couldn't see the sights in the dark anyway no matter what color they are painted. Incidentally, I think glowing night sights (like Tritium) are a bad idea because looking at sights in the dark will result in muzzle blast blinding you. After dark, forget about sights and just look at target and point shoot.}
END QUOTE

Well as one who has done a lot of night qualifications I can tell you night sights work well and will improve your accuracy quite a bit. And no the muzzle blast will not blind you because you were focusing on your sights. Never had that happen. What are you using a 2 inch 357 mag. Point shooting is great if you like missing.
Pat
 
Cool, wbond. Sounds like fun practice.

I don't recall using the laser on a black target in near darkness. Will see.
 
To SigFan:

I was using a .32 Magnum with 3" barrel with Federal ammo. The ammo is made for a 5" barrel. So the muzzle blast is a lot. I've ordered snubby ammo to reduce recoil and muzzle blast, but it's not arrived yet.

I also used a .32 ACP Firestorm with 3.5" barrel with Federal Eagle ammo made for a 4" barrel. So here again, lots of muzzle flash.

My cousin has shot both of mine above and also his .44 Mag.

With any of these guns, looking at or near the muzzle (like looking for front sight) results in total night blindness. Looking at target only and point shooting works better.

As for your comment about missing, you have not been at any of our practice sessions. You have not seen what we can do.

I've never failed to hit the mansize solid black target. My worst shot was a shoulder hit the first time I tried this. All of my other shots every practice session have been in the chest area. With practice my groups are getting tighter and my speed improving.

I don't know if you can point shoot, but I can and do and get good results at 7 to 12 yards. My cousin is also getting good results now that he stopped trying to look at the front sight, which he couldn't see anyway. He's also developed a decent point shooting accuracy at 7 to 12 yards.

If we want to shoot farther than 12 yards, we only do that in daylight and sometimes twilight. We do use the sights for shooting beyond 12 yards.
 
To M2 Carbine:

Quote: "Cool, wbond. Sounds like fun practice. I don't recall using the laser on a black target in near darkness. Will see."

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What do you mean "near darkness"? I'm not being a smarty here. I'm really asking what you mean.

We do sometimes practice at twilight just after sundown, but I'd call that twilight, not darkness.

Our darkness practice starts about 2 hours after sundown. There aren't any street lights or other lights, except the stars some nights and moon others. It's darker than a city street at night.

Your test has to be dark with starlight only and the target solid black. No cheating now :neener: Well, you can start with moonlight the first couple times. I did. However, we are under trees in the forest, so not that much light gets through from the sky. When I say "dark", I mean pretty darn dark, but not quite pitch black.
 
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What I mean by near darkness is enough light to be able to identify the target or at least enough of the target to know where you need to shoot.

For instance one night, with a Red Dot equipped 22 I shot an Armadillo from about 40 yards away. All I could see was the shape of the top edge of his back, so I aimed a couple inches below that.

I have to look around and see if I've some flat black targets.
The printed black targets I have, have a little shine to them.

This is my place. If I turned the night lights off it would be pretty dark.:)
In the center of the picture my 38 J Frame laser is on a foot square steel 22 backstop, about 40 yards away.
For some reason the laser, in this picture, looks big with a white dot in the center but it's actually a couple inch Red dot.

38Laser2.gif
 
To M2 Carbine:

Your armadillo example sounds about right.

When we do this on nights without moon, we can see much of the outline of target, but some of it we can't see because of shadows cast by the trees. Shadows are pitch black. So that's much like your armadillo example because we can see only part of the siloette (spelling?).

Incidentally, armadillos can carry leprosy, so don't be handling them. I read a true story about a guy who got leprosy when in high school. His doctor thinks he most likely got it while playing football (there was some armadillo poop on the grass and the guy got into it).

It looks like you've got a nice back yard there.

By the way, when I say we shoot under trees, my cousin lives in Northern Oregon in the forest. The trees are so thick that you can only walk certain paths between them, which I think he personally cleared. I mean trees so thick that grass can't grow under them. The only substantial cleared places are his front yard, and driveway.

In other parts of the country people have to plant trees. Here it's the opposite. I live in Southern Washington, but it's basically the same mountainous terrain, trees and brush as Northern Oregon.
 
QUOTE
With any of these guns, looking at or near the muzzle (like looking for front sight) results in total night blindness. Looking at target only and point shooting works better.

As for your comment about missing, you have not been at any of our practice sessions. You have not seen what we can do.

END QUOTE

Sorry but using night sights does not cause night blindness. The fire ball would cause you to lose night vision if your looking over the sights at the target just as it would by using the sights. Thats if your theory was correct.

Looking at the target and point shooting does not work better. Thats been proven time and time again. As anyone here who has training in night firing would tell you. Night sights increase your accuracy. Thats not a theory its a fact I have seen born out on the range at night and in shoot houses without using light. Sounds like you need to get some professional instruction. Go to Gunsight, Thunder Ranch or any other accredited school before you post anymore false information. Part of my living has been in recieving and giving firearms instruction including night firing and flashlight techniques.
Pat
 
wbond I found some flat black paper, a page from a photo album.
Surprisingly, in the dark the Crimson Trace laser dot reflected fine from that bland surface, just slightly less than from a light colored surface.

So I did a little experimenting by turning the night lights off and point "shooting" with the laser at the black page.

Bottom line,
In the dark at any distance from several yards to 25+ yards, if the target can be identified and painted it stands a good chance of being hit.
Of course if it's too dark to identify the target, I probably wouldn't be shooting anyhow.

If it can be seen, it can be hit.
So I think I'll stick with the laser.:)
 
Point shooting in the dark

This is to M2 Carbine, SigFan, or anyone else:

Point Shooting in Dark:


This assumes I can see enough of the target silouette to know where to shoot, or about where.

I'm having very good and consistant results at 12 yards and 7 yards.

I never claimed I could point shoot beyond 12 yards.

That is pretty close really, but at that distance it works reliably (with practice) with all shots in kill zone (first or second ring on man size target).

M2 Carbine: I believe you can hit from 25 yards with your laser sight, but since I could see your gun's laser on your gun in the dark in your picture, wouldn't that make you an easier target?

I'm going to add a new twist to my practice. I'm going to put a small, dim, red light in front of some black paper and shoot at the light from 12 yards. I think that should be much easier than shooting at a dark target. It will be interesting to see.
 
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