Price is MORE with a Credit Card? - No dice!

[Sam]

Lone_Gunman,
No de facto registration, just in facto identification. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what a 347.50 charge at Daves Guns was for does it?

Sam

 

[Lone_Gunman]

--

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Sam, it doesn't take a rocket scientist, it takes a psychic.

What exactly is the government going to do with that piece of information?

If guns are ever to be confiscated, it would be much easier for them to just go to Dave's Guns and demand that old Dave hand over his 4473 forms. That has much more info, including the make, model, and SN of th gun.

I can't think of a possible scenario where they would have to stoop to sifting through credit card receipts to find gun owners. Can you?

 

[drinks]

Waterhouse;
I am well up into my 60's, but I can remember the law being passed in the "70's, it was well publicized at that time, with a number of businesses being prosecuted for violating it shortly after it was passed, then it faded out of sight and now some merchants, especially gun shops, for some reason I do not know, have been trying to come up with subterfuges to get around it.
At the last gun show in Huntsville, I tried to buy something at at least 4 tables, was given the "3%" for cc businesss and ended the day with no purchases, as I shall not do business with someone I know to be dishonest.
3 of the vendors knew it was illegal, but tried the "well, this is just a cash discount" business," we are not really charging more for cc use" with a big wink.
Oh well, I still have my money and they still have their merchandise.

 

[Ryder]

I can't think of a possible scenario where they would have to stoop to sifting through credit card receipts to find gun owners. Can you?

I just gave my reason. Nobody has to agree with it and I don't know that is why the majority of purchasers share my reasons.

There is no sifting. The record is electronic and permanant. Kists are spit out on command. Wasn't too long ago people wouldn't argue with computer results. People are really dumb when they want to dehuumanize themselvess. If they were of the mind to sift actual gun records they have warehouses full of those forms you fill out when you do actually buy a gun. They have millions of these hardcopies, it is too inefficient, can't be done in a thousand years.

You might as well ask how the nazis knew who was jewish because that's the possible scenario here if we go into civil war over confiscation. In a world where the Uited Nations wants us to be forbidden to own small arms and half our own countrymen willingly ignore the slippery slope of the Democratic party anything is possible.

 

[swingset]

Sure, it's against their merchant agreement, but I don't care. I'd like to keep a small gun shop around. God knows I've wasted enough gun shop employee's time looking at various ones that I'd be embarrassed to beg out of the 3%.

Why don't any other shops do this? I only see it with guns.

I'll give you a hint: A lot of gun shop owners are greedy sheisters, and horrible business men. I will let the crappy ones go down the tubes gladly over silly policies like CC upcharges in favor of the shops with $.02 of common business sense.

You don't care that they violate their agreement with the CC companies? Guess what, that's being dishonest and shady. You support that? Good for you, I don't.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Ryder, it would be much easier for the government to just go to gun shops and collect form 4473, and then make house calls.

Also, if you are worried about credit card receipts being used to find you, wouldn't you also be worried that they would track you down through things like NRA membership, gun and hunting magazine subscriptions, internet purchases, internet forums like this one, etc?

They could get your IP address easily and track you down very quickly.

 

[hotpig]

This debate will continue forever unless the Dealers unite and do a cross the board 3% raise on all firearms and accessories. This will not happen because some Dealers want to lure customers in with the cheapest price.

I get a little chuckle every time I read somebody's posting saying turn theses guys it for charging a fee. The Credit Card companies have millions of dollars in fraud that they can not keep up on. Having a merchant charge a fee is not worth messing with. They have bigger fish to fry.

Shifty money mongering dealers ripping you off for 3%. I will buy this if they charge you without fair warning. If they have the 3% posted or they warn you when you try to pay with a card they are not ripping you off.

Who is at fault for this? The Dealers. They should just buckle down and add the fee to their price.

I am a Internet Dealer. My new gun prices are out the door prices. No cc fee, and no shipping charge. Advertised price is what you pay. Do I move a lot of guns? No, you can sometimes find the same gun that I have on Gunbroker for 30.00 less. The Auction guy wants 3% plus 25.00 shipping on top of the discounted price. Most buyers do not want to do the math.

It is a buyers market right now. Quit whining and grab what you can now. In a few years a lot of Dealer license will expire. Fewer are going to renew since it is not worth messing with. I know if I just hang in there the mark up will get in the 20% plus range after the small shops and Internet Dealers give up and get real jobs.

 

[Hawk]

I know if I just hang in there the mark up will get in the 20% plus range after the small shops and Internet Dealers give up and get real jobs.

I would also speculate that your volume will be such that the 3% will have mutated into 1.6% or thereabouts.

The local guys I deal with don't surcharge cards and thier price is generally at or below the "cash price" posted by the one small shop that does.

I don't know if surcharging cards is a guarantee that one will never grow to the point where the rates drop below 3%, but I wouldn't be especially surprised if that was the case.

Somebody heading for a phd in economics will one day data-mine online auction closing prices. My informal digging around has me believing that at least one specific dealer's no-whine credit card auctions routinely close at 5% or more above equivelant merchandise listed by PITA-payment sellers based on blue book values. This only applies to used stuff, of course, but that's all I buy online.

How the hypothetical phd candidate would control for quality of pictures and "salesmanship" in the listings would be a challange but probably not insurmountable.

 

[swingset]

I am a Internet Dealer. My new gun prices are out the door prices. No cc fee, and no shipping charge. Advertised price is what you pay. Do I move a lot of guns? No, you can sometimes find the same gun that I have on Gunbroker for 30.00 less. The Auction guy wants 3% plus 25.00 shipping on top of the discounted price. Most buyers do not want to do the math.

It is a buyers market right now. Quit whining and grab what you can now. In a few years a lot of Dealer license will expire. Fewer are going to renew since it is not worth messing with. I know if I just hang in there the mark up will get in the 20% plus range after the small shops and Internet Dealers give up and get real jobs.

hehe.....sounds like you need to give up and get a real job.

 

[308win]

It is a buyers market right now. Quit whining and grab what you can now. In a few years a lot of Dealer license will expire. Fewer are going to renew since it is not worth messing with. I know if I just hang in there the mark up will get in the 20% plus range after the small shops and Internet Dealers give up and get real jobs.

I wouldn't bet my retirement on this strategy. There will always be people who think there is easy money to be made dealing a few guns part time and you won't be able to get the price points you want as long as this is the case.

 

[newfalguy101]

I am a Internet Dealer. My new gun prices are out the door prices. No cc fee, and no shipping charge. Advertised price is what you pay. Do I move a lot of guns? No, you can sometimes find the same gun that I have on Gunbroker for 30.00 less. The Auction guy wants 3% plus 25.00 shipping on top of the discounted price. Most buyers do not want to do the math.

It is a buyers market right now. Quit whining and grab what you can now. In a few years a lot of Dealer license will expire. Fewer are going to renew since it is not worth messing with. I know if I just hang in there the mark up will get in the 20% plus range after the small shops and Internet Dealers give up and get real jobs.

Good luck

IMHO, the biggest flaw in your strategy is the fact that many wholesalers sell directly to the public at the SAME price we pay as 01 holders.

 

[hotpig]

I think the number of FFL are going to decrease in the next few years. The guys that got them because they thought it was profitable will slowly let theirs go. The small shops can not compete with Internet sales so they also will go.

We will still have the big guys in urban areas that also offer Classes, range, and gunsmith services. They will not be cheap because of their overhead.

If you figure in the loss of small shops, part time guys like me, and the almost dead already gun shows there is the potential for 20%.


Maybe I'am just a optimist.

 

[RugerSAFan]

Quite a while ago, my local gas station had posted a discount price on gasoline if paid with cash. Eventually the signs went down. When I asked why, I was told the credit card companies, through lobbying, had "persuaded" congress to pass legislation to prohibit "two tier" pricing.

Makes paying by credit much more acceptable to the sheeple. Folks used to pay with cash; now they use plastic and go into debt (slowly).

How we, as a people, would not call 25%+ interest rates, compounded daily, as usury is beyond me... Again, the credit card companies have persuaded the legislature that this is okay.

 

[Rezin]

That's why you write check id, because if you write it, they are obligated to check. If they dont they are liable in a civil manner.

That is NOT true. (and curious, where did you hear that?)

I am a merchant. I know the rules well. I am also a credit afficanado. SEE ID, CHECK ID etc is INVALID. The card is NOT VALID unless it is signed. Most cards even say right on the back that they are not valid unless signed.

AND if it IS signed, we can NOT ask for ID, EVEN if it says SEE ID on the back. The rules suck, I agree, but they are the rules..... I put SEE ID on all my cards too, but they are NOT obligated to check it, or liable if they don't.

Hell, there are some credit nazis on other boards (credit related) who activley turn in places that ASK for ID (Since is against their policies to ask for ID)

I am not trying to start arguments etc. I think these policies suck as much as the rest of you. I am just pointing out FACTS.

 

[Byron Quick]

Why don't any other shops do this? I only see it with guns.

Other businesses do it. They just don't do it the same way. I once managed a retail furniture store. The price tag on merchandise included markup for credit card fees or financing hassles. For cash, we'd give a ten percent discount. Now that was more than a credit card company charges but it was much less than the added overhead of financing purchases ourselves.

Now the way that many gun shops advertise a 3% surcharge for credit card purchases is a sure way to put a bad taste in many potential customers' mouths. I don't believe that being able to advertise a lower price is worth the ill will purchased. They'd be better off advertising a price for everyone and a discount for cash. A carrot instead of a stick.

 

[waterhouse]

quote=Turtle Club
Quote:
Originally Posted by waterhouse
That's why you write check id, because if you write it, they are obligated to check. If they dont they are liable in a civil manner.

just to be clear, I think something got messed up with the quote button . . .the above quote was Turtle's (I think), not mine.

 

[Hawk]

Now the way that many gun shops advertise a 3% surcharge for credit card purchases is a sure way to put a bad taste in many potential customers' mouths. I don't believe that being able to advertise a lower price is worth the ill will purchased. They'd be better off advertising a price for everyone and a discount for cash. A carrot instead of a stick.

We have a winner! No more entries, please.

Everybody happy and, just to put the cherry on top, now in compliance with the merchant account rules.

 

[Byron Quick]

I'd like to add one comment for the dealers who are looking this thread over.

I don't use a credit card for many gun related purchases. I don't think I've ever bought a gun with a credit card.

However, I have never bought anything from a dealer who wants to do the 3% surcharge thing. And I never will. Somehow, I don't think I'm in a minority of one by a long chalk.

 

[Sam]

Lone Gunman,
Not a single one of my customers said anything about the government when making cash firearms purchases. They just like thier privacy. I like mine too. Buy lots of things with cash, just because.

Newfalguy has the answer on the direction the business has been going.

Sam

 

[Turtle Club]

I sell stuff on ebay to make side money and when I accept payments trough PAYPAL, they charge 2.9%.

However, I would rather be charged the 2.9% because it is guaranteed.

If I take a personal check or money order, their is a change the bidder could never send the money or the check could bounce and I get screwed out of a sale. This was I don't have to wait for a check to clear or for the mail to deliver it.

It is a lot less of a hassle. My average sale is about $40.00. That times 2.9% is $1.16 for peace of mind. My profit margin is about 80% most of the time so I don’t mind.

But I also pay cash for a lot of things that aren’t directly traceable to me and my income because.....

I work at a "Gentleman's Club" 3 nights a week. I get paid $6.50 / hr from 10pm-3am but I also get a tip out from the dancers on average $10-$15 per girl. With about 15-20girls there a night. That’s almost an average of $175 a night in cash that does not get recorded to Uncle Sam. It doesn’t go in the bank and I don’t purchase anything that can be traced when my SS# is audited for spending VS income. I don’t pay bills according to this money. I strictly pay bills and car payments based on my true income.

I simply, eat at the best restaurants in town, buy groceries, tvs, cds, video games, ect with this money. CASH = Not traceable = Awesome.

So I don’t mind paying cash for items.

 

[Kenneth Lew]

Waterhouse;
You do realize you are admitting in public that you are violating the law in Texas.
In Texas, it is actually illegal to have 2 prices.

You want to tell these guys that.

Any credit card transactions with the Secretary of State of Texas are subject to a convenience fee.
Property taxes payments for local jurisdicaitons via credit card are also subject to convenience fees.
Credit card payments to the IRS are subject to a convenience fee.

 

[feedthehogs]

Why is a merchant dishonest for trying to save YOU the consumer, 3% on a purchase for paying in cash?

The merchant is still giving you the option to pay by plastic but you have to pay the additional costs to the merchant by doing so.

Or is it the idea of knowing that it costs 3% more to pay by plastic?
Would you feel better if all the prices were just raised enough to cover the merchants costs and you didn't know like it is in most of the world?

And because someone decides to do business one way and you do it another you want to complain and report them?

All you complainers out there I'm sure have never gone over the speed limit, reported all cash income to the IRS, never told a lie, etc, etc.

What a bunch of mary janes.

Me, I'd rather pay less. And knowing I'm paying less makes it just that much better.

 

[Hawk]

Why is a merchant dishonest for trying to save YOU the consumer, 3% on a purchase for paying in cash?

He's not if he's offering a 3% cash discount.

What's contrary to the merchant's agreement is surcharging for plastic. Admittedly, the distinction may appear trivial to some, but I don't think it is.

As far as you, a cash customer, would be concerned, you still save.


Advertise 1030.00 and offer 30.00 off for cash - no problem.
or
Advertise 1000.00 and surcharge 30.00 for plastic - someone isn't honoring an agreement they made with their merchant account provider.

Either way, you pay 1000.00, plastic user pays 1030.00.

One way's honest; one is, well, subject to debate.

The other difference is that "surcharge dude" will never see 1000.00 of my cash or 1030.00 of my plastic.

Not complaining. Just facts.

 

[hotpig]

Hawk, I totally agree with you on the Merchants need to raise their prices 3% across the board.


The CC companies are making money hand over fist. They are not going to give up merchant accounts for this violation with only a few whiners complaining. They will enforce it if it starts hurting their profits.