Primer, Gun, or Other

[blarby]

Ok, this is a vexing problem.

This one, like 6 or 7 of his cohorts from a 1000 round run I'm about a third of the way through, are not doing what they are supposed to.

I tried to get two angle shots- one showing the primer strike, one showing the primer depth. The primers are seated. High primers certainly aren't the issue here.

These are from the newer to me superblackhawk.

I wish I had saved the others, but they've since been broken down.

These are from the same lot of Federal Large Pistol primers. They're all loaded on a single stage as I do with all of my 44, and I know there is powder in there.


So, any ideas on what gives ?

Its plinkin ammo, so not the end of the world- but I'm wondering if I either got a bad lot of federal primers, or if I have a firing pin issue.

Any thoughts would be helpful.

 

[billybob44]

Rifle Case??

I KNOW this sounds wrong/stupid, but you MAY?? have a batch of brass that has been punched out for a Large RIFLE Primer

Those in the pics. seem to be seated too deep??.

To find out if that is case, take the one in the pic., or a dis-assembled one JUST like it, and try to seat a RIFLE primer.

I have seen this done on some 45 Colt cases. This MAY?? have happened to you.

If that is the case, I would load up a hand full with Large Rifle primers, drop down your powder charge .5-1.0gr. and check them out..Bill.

 

[ReloaderFred]

Check the tension of the hammer spring. It sounds like you bought this revolver used, so the previous owner may have done an "action job" by reducing the hammer spring tension. This is common with used S&W revolvers, where the tension spring has been backed out to lighten the trigger pull. This may be the case with your gun, but they probably cut a coil off the spring.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[ironworkerwill]

Wow thats deep. Billybob may have something.

 

[blarby]

Ok billy, in the name of science, here we go.

I'm gonna pull this one, and deprime two of the ones that firedand do a seat test, and see where we end up.

More to come.........

 

[blarby]

Ok- wife is on the phone, so camera is unavailable- but pics will come.

I marked the suspect case with a sharpie for identification, and the two other test cases remain normal.

I seated a wolf LRP in each one.

The two that fired- the primer is quite proud of the rim.

The one that did not is proud of the rim- but less.

So somehow along the line I have some cases that have deeper pockets- and in this blackhawk that makes a difference.

 

[blarby]

Ok, here they are.

Some somehow I have a difference that matters- deeper than large pistol should be, but not as deep as a rifle should be.



Where and how did I do this.

They're starline cases I bought new, in one lot- I do not suspect the cases, only my self.

Fred- I am going to have the pistol taken down by a gunsmith and see if its been "jobbed" in any event.

 

[billybob44]

Do the 'Tippy' Test..

Place the primed case headstamp down on a flat surface. If they are 'tippy' than the primer is not seated enough.

I have heard, but not seen high primers detonate on the recoil shield of some revolvers...Bill.

PS: I would guess that the next 'Wise' step would be to try a different LP primer-CCI, or Win.

 

[blarby]

Ok, think I found the culprit.

I took my large pistol pocket uniformer, and "uniformed one of the 44 cases.

Voila. Deeper pocket.

Somehow my cutterhead has moved.

I've used a brand new starline case to calibrate the cutterhead, and that problem seems to have gone away.

Now I'm just going to have to cull these as they pop up.

 

[billybob44]

Ok- wife is on the phone, so camera is unavailable- but pics will come.

I marked the suspect case with a sharpie for identification, and the two other test cases remain normal.

I seated a wolf LRP in each one.

The two that fired- the primer is quite proud of the rim.

The one that did not is proud of the rim- but less.

So somehow along the line I have some cases that have deeper pockets- and in this blackhawk that makes a difference.

I seated a wolf LRP in each one.

blar,you DO know that Wolf primers are KNOWN to seat tight in most cases that they were designed for??
You may try a CCI, or Win. Large Rifle primer also??..Bill.

 

[gamestalker]

Those do indeed appear to be seated a bit deep, IMO?

GS

 

[blarby]

blar,you DO know that Wolf primers are KNOWN to seat tight in most cases that they were designed for??
You may try a CCI, or Win. Large Rifle primer also??

Thats why I used them- if there was a problem, it would certainly show more in a larger primer.

And boy, did it.

The fact that the cutter ( before I calibrated it) trimmed significant brass from a new starline case after the test seating only further drove me to looking at the cutter.

Those do indeed appear to be seated a bit deep

Yep, about 3 thou too deep, if measurements from a digital caliper can be trusted.

Still dont know how the cutter head broke loose.

 

[243winxb]

about 3 thou too deep

Firing pin protrusion is some where between .035" to .055" on some firearms. So i dont think its primer seating depth. 1. Look at the transfer bar if a new model. 2. Cylinder moving forward on firing. 3. Weak hammer spring . 4. Rim thickness. 5. Yes, primer is to deep. 6. A cast bullet seated out to far would keep the round from fully chambering. This would deaden the hammer/firing pin strike.

 

[blarby]

The gun is/should be going to a gunsmith on friday.

I'm not familiar enough with its workings to make any kind of judgements.

I'm wondering if this is one of those cases where 1 + 1 = 2

2 = the problem.

I hope- hope, its just the cutterhead. If its more, that certainly was one of the problems found in the process, and I'm glad to have uncovered it.

With that said, if someone has one of these, and can guide me through what I should be looking for ( spring coil #'s, etc) I'd be reluctant to dis assemble it fully, but I would do it.

 

[joustin]

Its possible that the primer wasn't set deep enough in the ones that had the deeper pocket, you pulled the trigger and seated it to the bottom, like a high primer but a different issue causing it. That's my guess, take it for what its worth. (About $3.50) lol

 

[FROGO207]

These are not like a S&W.
With a Super Blackhawk the two hammer springs are under the grips. Sometimes in an attempt to lighten the trigger pull Bubba will take one of the two springs off its pin at the bottom of the grip. with only one spring it does not always transfer enough energy to the firing pin. Hopefully he left the spring in there and just unhooked it. Rehook it and try your revolver. I have three regular Blackhawks that have come into my possession because they were "funny acting" that had this done. All work well now with the spring reattached. End play on the cylinder may also be partly to blame. Look there as well. YMMV

FWIW using a rifle primer in the deeper cases and reducing the charge accordingly would work to salvage them I bet. Just mark them well (I use a notch filed in rim) and keep them separate when loading.

 

[blarby]

Ok, so as a bit of an update, perhaps a final one :

Gunsmith attests that the gun hasn't been bubba'd or otherwise modified. Strikes normally seated primers normally.

I've rooted through and shot from every batch of 44 I have, and its only those that have this extra deep primer problem that cause misfires.

So, I'll be sorting those through and reaming them for large rifle primers completely- to the tune of some 100 pieces. :/

 

[rcmodel]

With a Super Blackhawk the two hammer springs are under the grips.

Mmmm?

The dual spring is the trigger return spring.
And unhooking one arm has no affect at all on the hammer force.

The hammer is driven by the large coil mainspring & strut.

rc

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The fact that the cutter ( before I calibrated it) trimmed significant brass from a new starline case after the test seating only further drove me to looking at the cutter.

Yep, about 3 thou too deep, if measurements from a digital caliper can be trusted.

Still dont know how the cutter head broke loose.

Are you really cutting the primer pockets on straight walled handgun brass? I never clean let along true up handgun brass, not ever. IMO it's just not necessary. I would stop cutting the primer pockets on handgun brass, it's just not worth the time and as you see it can be detrimental.

 

[gamestalker]

I don't know how much truth there is to this, but I've heard that Fed primers being that they are softer, that if they should get seated too deep, it will disrupt the anvil or compound?

GS

 

[buck460XVR]

I've never had a primer set too deep that it would not fire...as long as it was bottomed out in the pocket. Me thinks that even tho the primers were seated below flush, because of the excess depth of the pocket, the anvil was not preloaded and thus the firing pin drove the primers even deeper. Did you try firing the rounds a second time?

 

[blarby]

Did you try firing the rounds a second time?

and a 5th, and 6th at some point.

As I said- I think this one has pretty well been nailed down- I'm not 100% certain how I got a uniformed pocket between pistol and rifle size, but that seems to be exactly what happened. Edit- I am sure, I meant to say im not sure how I got the cutter messed up, as addressed later.

Are you really cutting the primer pockets on straight walled handgun brass? I never clean let along true up handgun brass, not ever.

I use a cutter of the appropriate ( or at least supposed to be appropriate, damnit) size during my process on everything I reload single stage. Decap, uniform ( ends up being a cleaning swipe after the first time), recap...... Up until this point its never been an issue, and having Identified it, I don't think it will be an issue going forward.

I'm still not even remotely understanding how I got a cuter head to move in that fashion, but I've since found that they are indeed movable, and thankfully, very easy to reset to the appropriate length.

I don't know how much truth there is to this, but I've heard that Fed primers being that they are softer, that if they should get seated too deep, it will disrupt the anvil or compound?

I suppose its possible, but If I hadn't screwed up the pockets in the first place, it wouldn't be a problem either way.

We're all human, and I'll admit it when ive dorked the dork !

 

[gamestalker]

Well, what can I say, you would know, as most any knowledgeable reloader would know if it was something we have done.

Keep us informed.

GS

 

[murf]

blarby,

starline pistol cases have very uniform primer pockets. out of fifty 45lc cases i measured, only one had a shallow pocket. the other forty nine were the same, correct depth.

perhaps you grabbed a large rifle uniformer instead of a large pistol uniformer.

murf

 

[blarby]

perhaps you grabbed a large rifle uniformer instead of a large pistol uniformer.

Thats what I thought at first, too. But I sadly figured the truth out in posts #6 and #7