Primer ignites in kinetic puller

[Garage Dog]

This is scarey. One of my pals at the gun range was telling of the exact same thing happened to one of his friends a few weeks ago. Primer went off while using a kinetic puller, did not ignite the powder, however it discolored the powder. Not sure what cal it was. I will find the particulars and post back what I find out. What brand of primer were you using?

My friend was also telling me of an issue of someone who was extremely experienced dropped a primer tube and they ALL went off severely damaging his arm!!! This was about 5 or 6 weeks ago.

 

[jgh4445]

If the OP was using a 500 like he said, how did he advance the plate with a primer not fully seated? It keeps mine from turning when I do that...maybe its a question of how far the primer was sticking out huh? I've heard of primer detonations (well,one) when using a shell holder instead of the collet, but never before with the collet.

 

[Slamfire]

Why not?

We all have had insensitive primers, primers that would not go off or took a couple of strikes to go off.

So why don't people believe in "sensitive" primers?

Primer manufacturers make primers and they test between the lot to see if the lot will ignite between “All Fire” and “Non Fire”. These standards used to be based on dropping a weight on the primer. The all fire limit is when all primers ignit and it represented the greater drop distance. The none fire limit was the minimum drop distance where no primers ignited.

George E. Frost, in his book “Ammunition Making”, provides a good description and procedure for calculating the sensitivity numbers in a primer test. Of interest, the H – 2S (two standard deviations), the All Fire limit, means that 4 primers in 900 would be expected to fire, and H + 5S , the none fire limit, means 3 in 10, 000, 000 primers are expected to misfire and the lot will be accepted.

Even at the lowest drop level, there is a probability of ignition.

So why don’t people believe in sensitive primers? The evidence is all around us, slamfires in gas guns, primers going off in kinetic impact tools, primers igniting in priming tools.

When it comes to sensitive primers the shooting community is all “La, La, La, La”

 

[Lost Sheep]

Earlier tonight I was loading some 45's and had a couple of errors that I needed to correct. I loaded the puller and on the third hit the primer pops! The primer was no longer in the pocket, the bullet was pulled and contained in the puller along with the powder. I am glad that the powder was not ignited and that I still have all the parts I started the day with. I was wondering if this has happened to any one else before? The reason for the puller was the primer was not fully seated in the pocket. Is it possible that the primer was able to move enough to activate it? I am fairly new to reloading and any advice would be appreciated.
Also, I have been a long time lurker and have enjoyed and learned a bunch from you guys already, THANKS!
-Ken

Thanks for asking our advice and welcome to the forum.

Have you contacted the maker of the bullet puller? Long shot, but they might have some constructive input.

Repeating a couple of posts, I have heard that using the Press' shell holder in a kinetic bullet puller can set off a primer (though, I cannot see how). Perhaps a high-seated primer could hit parts of the collet and be set off.

I have, on occasion, in my younger days, (re-)seated a primer that was too high, after charging the case with powder I recognize now that it is generally a bad idea. Powder granules can fall through the flash hole and get jammed up against the primer anvil. Pressing the primer and anvil further will squash the powder granule. I have no idea if that could set off the priming compound, but I don't want to be the one to find our, either. I am curious, but not THAT curious.

When a primer goes off in a case without being contained by a breechface, it can back out of the primer pocket. Even when chambered, if there is insufficient pressure to jam the case's base against the breechface (as in those shooters who use wax bullets, fired without gunpowder-primer only) primers back out. Wax bullet shooters generally enlarge the flash hole to cure this.

I am having a hard time picturing the collet from your description. Can you take close-up pictures (use your camera's "Macro" setting) and post a couple?

Thanks

Lost Sheep

 

[Lost Sheep]

Stop there. Troubleshoot the priming issue. Cut the remaining cartridges with a hand held (hacksaw) instead of pulling bullets.
Just balance the cost of injury to the cost of some brass, bullet, and powder.

I would rather use a tubing cutter. Only a few dollars. Does not create a lot of friction, or filings.

Responding to another post "Just toss them".

I would never toss live ammunition, or even live primers. Your local hazardous waste will generally not charge for taking small amounts of such items and your local police generally have disposal procedures for their dud ammo. I am sure they would not turn you away.

Using oil to disarm primers does not always work. Primers are sealed with a varnish or shellac like substance. It isn't 100% effective at protecting the priming compound, but no penetrating oil is 100% effective at getting through, either.

Lost Sheep

 

[1SOW]

I have no reason to doubt the OP, but it sure is strange. Is it possible the hammer "cap" was not screwed on enough to hold the collet in place. Could this cause a 'bounce' against the top of the hammer strong enough to detonate a high primer after the bullet and powder separated? Maybe so.
In 9mm, I use FED SPP exclusively for it's light strike characteristics due to using a minute amount of Nitro-glycerin in the formula.
When I first got my chrono, I had to hammer over 300 cartridges that didn't quite make power factor. Since then there have been periodic screw-ups that keep me proficient with the kinetic hammer. The endgrain on my 4x4 anvil looks like a cereal bowl.

Used correctly, I believe the kinetic hammer is safe; but I do wear eye protection.

I would break them down with the hammer, being careful everything is assembled and tightened properly. BTJM.

 

[GW Staar]

I think the answer is simple.

Either you had a dud primer or you had a little biddy angel in that case who put his thumb in the flash hole. Either way your life was saved. Count your blessings, and don't expect such fortunate circumstances next time.

 

[Jim Watson]

I would dismiss it as a freak incident and motor on.
A few twists with a chamfer reamer after decapping will handle the primer pocket crimp if you only have a few; no need to waste a case made at taxpayer expense.

I would never toss live ammunition, or even live primers. Your local hazardous waste will generally not charge for taking small amounts of such items and your local police generally have disposal procedures for their dud ammo. I am sure they would not turn you away.

I have a good amount of unreliable ammunition due to fire hose water. Nobody hereabouts wants to fool with it. The local waste management's idea of hazardous waste is dead batteries, and the PD EOD does not want to fool with it. So I just trash the occasional unshootable, unsalvageable round. I haven't heard of a garbage volcano at the local landfill yet. The big batches I am gradually pulling down for the bullets and brass. Phew.

In 9mm, I use FED SPP exclusively for it's light strike characteristics due to using a minute amount of Nitro-glycerin in the formula.

I don't use Federals in 9mm because handbook loads give scary flat cratered primers. Other brands come out looking normal. Nitroglycerine? I always thought it was due to a different grade of lead styphnate; basic instead of neutral.

When I first got my chrono, I had to hammer over 300 cartridges that didn't quite make power factor.

When I did that, I got 300 rounds of practice with 5% less recoil. Big deal.

 

[Otto]

I'm not sure I'm buying this.
If the primer fired in the puller, it would have ignited the powder charge, either before or after the bullet came out of the case.

There's an explanation for that. The primer was installed upside down.
That could account for the detonation and why the powder was left untouched.

 

[Jasper1573]

I have an RCBS impact bullet puller that I have safely used for a couple of years; however, I believe that I remember somewhere in the instructions that the user is warned against using the tool with a high primer...probably for the very reason that was cited in an earlier comment...that possibly the primer moved during the impact and cause the primer anvil to strike the compound and POP!

If anyone has their instructions, can you please verify that my memory is correct? I can't find my instructions.

By the way, RCBS has discontinued their kinetic hammer-type bullet puller, so directions/warnings aren't avbl on their web site either.

 

[1SOW]

Jim Watson

I don't use Federals in 9mm because handbook loads give scary flat cratered primers. Other brands come out looking normal. Nitroglycerine? I always thought it was due to a different grade of lead styphnate; basic instead of neutral.

You can check on the "MSDS" page for Fed SPPs. Their light strike ability comes from both a fairly soft case and the older formula they use for the primer compound which may also be as you say, and a "Minute" amount of NG. The other major primer manufacturers don't use it according to their MSDS pages. Sorta like a double-base powder.

I don't use Federals in 9mm because handbook loads give scary flat cratered primers. Other brands come out looking normal.

My 9mm Sig 239 with a 3.6" bbl and using a 124gr G.D. load is at 1200 FPS using Vit n340, and the Fed primers "may" be just very slightly flatter. This load stretches the reload data a skosh. Never got a cratered flattened primer.

For my lightly sprung gun, Fed SPP is the best primer.

 

[PCCUSNRET]

I have an RCBS impact bullet puller that I have safely used for a couple of years; however, I believe that I remember somewhere in the instructions that the user is warned against using the tool with a high primer...probably for the very reason that was cited in an earlier comment...that possibly the primer moved during the impact and cause the primer anvil to strike the compound and POP!

If anyone has their instructions, can you please verify that my memory is correct? I can't find my instructions..

Here's a link to the instructions. It does state that this tool should not be used on rounds with high primers.

http://www.rcbs.com/downloads/instructions/PowerPull_BulletPuller.pdf

By the way, RCBS has discontinued their kinetic hammer-type bullet puller, so directions/warnings aren't avbl on their web site either.

Just curious where you heard this as you can still order them on their web site.

https://shop.rcbs.com/WebConnect/Ma...creenlabel=index&productId=3677&route=C15J041

 

[hentown]

Why didn't you just re-seat the primer?

Now there's a Darwin Award contender!!

 

[Trent]

How in the hell did the primer not ignite the powder and make a kaboom?

 

[kingmt]

If you don't know what your talking about why waste time saying it. Seating a good primer isn't going to do anything. If your scared of it don't do it but just because you don't know about something doesn't make the other person wrong.

 

[jcwit]

Reseating a live primer in a loaded round is not a wise option to persue. IMO--YMMV

 

[Trent]

The reason seating a live primer in a loaded round is a bad idea is you don't KNOW if something caused the primer not to seat properly in the first place - e.g. obstruction.

You squeeze a primer down on an obstruction, guess what happens next?

Not something you want to happen in a loaded round that you are right next to.

 

[popper]

Solve the problem by ditching the hammer puller and use your press and pliers to pull the bullet.
Use a short piece of PVC pipe to space the pliers or wire cutter from the shell holder. You can then investigate the problem fully and fix it. You have to destroy 100 bullets to equal the cost of the puller.

 

[kingmt]

You guys do what you fell secure with. I fix them on a ram prime. There is nothing to go bang. Even if it did it wouldn't kill you. It would be had on your eyes if they wern't covered.

I take a much biger risk when I leave for work.

 

[rcmodel]

Solve the problem by ditching the hammer puller and use your press and pliers to pull the bullet.

If the primers sticking out that far, how are you going to get in a shell holder to use pliers & a press?

My personal opinion is, finish seating it.
And if you can get it out of the shell holder pull it with a hammer puller.

Your chances of getting hit with falling Russian space junk is much greater then a primer going off in a hammer puller, and harming you if it did..

rc

 

[tightgroup tiger]

In my foolish youth I hit a primer with a hammer to see what would happen. It was deftening! My ears rang for a couple days. (Inside a concrete building)

Just put a primed shell in a pistol with no powder or bullet and take it outside and fire it, you'll find out how load they are.

Are you sure the primer detonated? Or did it pop out of the pocket? If the primer was upside down and it detonated, you would not be able to hear, their would have been a big flash, and it wouldn't have come out the case.

I'm leaning towards what RC said.

 

[jcwit]

In my foolish youth I hit a primer with a hammer to see what would happen. It was deftening! My ears rang for a couple days. (Inside a concrete building)

Just put a primed shell in a pistol with no powder or bullet and take it outside and fire it, you'll find out how load they are.

Are you sure the primer detonated? Or did it pop out of the pocket? If the primer was upside down and it detonated, you would not be able to hear, their would have been a big flash, and it wouldn't have come out the case.

AAhhhh come on. Done it many many times, both in an enclosed garage, in the basement, and outside. Ya they go bang, but my ears hardly ring even for a few minutes. Did it the first time 62 years ago.

Yes, I now wear hearing aids but mainly from operating a pin router making custome van parts for 10/15 years out of Red Oak. Then operating a CNC Router for the same items. That router bit in Red Oak really screams.

 

[Jasper1573]

Reference Parker51 comment above...I truly don't know where I saw it, but when I googled it, I found some place that said it was "discontinued."

Apparently I misread the cite...thanks for the correction, and the verification that the RCBS kinetic bullet puller shouldn't be used with high primers.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

Done it many many times

I only did it once, that was enough for me.

 

[Jasper1573]

Your chances of getting hit with falling Russian space junk is much greater then a primer going off in a hammer puller, and harming you if it did..

Well, having spent 20 years in Military Service, apply Murphy's Law...if it can go wrong,it will," and in other words, if you have to think about it too long, then you probably ought not do it.

While I respect the opinion of those with greater experience than mine, I saw many an airmen buried before their time because they thought they could take shortcuts or do something unconventional because they were that much better than everyone else.

Eventually, it will catch up with you.

I almost lost a finger a few years ago by getting too close to a table saw without gloves...reseating a primer in a loaded round is substantially more dangerous than a table saw. While you may lose a finger or hand to a table saw, a bullet into the gut will take you out for eternity...evaluate your relationship with our Father in heaven, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before you engage in such death defying stunts.